Yields and Flows

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classical_Liberal
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by classical_Liberal »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:46 pm
I'm seriously trying to wrap my head around the last few posts in this discussion, and so far my head feels like a BB rattling in a tin can.
It seemed like abstract gobbledygook to me as well on the first couple of reads. I've now read the series of posts 6 times over the past couple of days, and I'm starting to really "get it". It's creating a very good framework for some of the more intuitive examples I was trying to work through in my head/on this thread earlier.

@Daylen, VERY helpful. Thanks.

Back to @2B1S
Last winter, maybe December, I reread the ERE book and noted some of the realizations I made in my journal. At that time I created a similar, but more complex web, to what Daylen posted above. Of course it was specific to things in my life. One of the key takeways for me at that time was the only "node" that suffered when I removed full-time work node was the flow from it to monetary savings node. The saving node was (and still is) important to me because I view slack in my system mostly in terms of money saved and the income it can generate. I didn't think in terms of slack then, hence didn't have flows associated to other nodes from this one, outside of investment income funding other nodes. What I began to realize with this exercise was the full time work was only contributing to the savings node, and actually had detrimental effects to other important nodes in my life (ie flows from them to FT work). So even though conceptually I had no idea what I was doing, I consciously made the decision that creating more slack (slack in terms of money saved) was not worth the continued outgoing flows from other nodes to maintain FT work. I viewed quitting FT work as a wash to my complete system, so then the only remaining consideration was if I prefered spending my time at FT work or doing other things. Guess what won-out there?

Removing FT work from the web and seeing that it would still function was instrumental in my eventual plan to semi-ERE this year.

I've been looking for actionable items in this thread to advance Wheaton levels. I think my answer is that I need find ways to create slack from other nodes. IOW, extras in one that can be recycled into slack in another. Another option may be looking for waste in other systems and incorporating that into slack in my own system. However, the later has the potential of being viewed as "mooching", like @anesde noted earlier. If I can accomplish this on some small scale, then I will maybe will begin to experience/understand money is not the only option for slack. So, I believe I have my answer, unless someone else here feels I'm way off base.

jacob
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by jacob »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:25 pm
Removing FT work from the web and seeing that it would still function was instrumental in my eventual plan to semi-ERE this year.
Necessity is the mother of invention(*).

I've deliberately used and pushed and exploited that concept throughout my journey to extend my boundaries.---Picking some extreme constraints and seeing what I'd come up with; then dialing it back while knowing that I knew how to push forward again.

It seems that easy-money access might stymie this learning curve ;)

(*) I prefer the Danish idiom as it's more direct: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/n%C3%B8d ... _at_spinde ... BTW, if anyone knows of a book of global/world wide/national idioms, pls lmk. I love this stuff.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by classical_Liberal »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:25 pm
I think my answer is that I need find ways to create slack from other nodes. IOW, extras in one that can be recycled into slack in another. Another option may be looking for waste in other systems and incorporating that into slack in my own system. However, the later has the potential of being viewed as "mooching", like @anesde noted earlier. If I can accomplish this on some small scale, then I will maybe will begin to experience/understand money is not the only option for slack. So, I believe I have my answer, unless someone else here feels I'm way off base.
Thinking about this in more detail, the most likely result of doing this will simply be reduced spending. Since my nodes currently have inbound "funding" flow from money, any slack created from internodal movement will just reduce the needed input of money from PT work or investment income. IOW the "slack" will still look monetary. Perhaps the real project is learning to note how any new internodal flow reduces the need of monetary inflow from PT work/investment income, to understand and translate the value of those flows? Is there a way to accurately track value like this without using money?

@jacob :lol: I like the Danish version too.

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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by jacob »

It's different from the English one. To me the English version implies a need leaning towards want. Whereas the Danish version implies a need leaning towards emergency---which sharpens the mind.

An effective way to reconsider one's money dependence (and steer the focus towards other resources) is the "buy nothing" exercise. That's how I got started way back (18 years ago!). There are several books now going through that exercise typically spending a year on it. I made it more or less 90% permanent. I started going extreme, and then dialed it back 10% to 90%.

For a nice series of articles illustrating the change in mind frame, I recommend:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/ ... othing-day
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ying-stuff
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/ ... t-spending
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... -months-in
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/ ... ng-norfolk
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/ ... hier-wiser

Read it in order!!

Her transition very much parallels my own back in 2001.

mooretrees
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by mooretrees »

I was literally talking to my husband about doing a no-buying year this morning. I watched some of an interview with Jacob and Mike Rosehart yesterday and Jacob talked about his no-buying year. I need to change how I think about consumption and sometimes a hard reset is the easiest. Also, I keep hearing Greta Thunburg's "How dare you" speech in my head and thinking how I am part of the problem. The hardest part for me (not an INJT) is dealing with friends and families and xmas/birthdays/Chanukah. I'll figure it out I'm sure, but the no-buying year is seriously on my radar.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Most businesses do indeed fail because they fail to consider flow (insofar other businesses do it). The next step is mergers and acquisitions. Imagine your retirement going bankrupt if there were people living the same lifestyle as you did but spending less. That's the environment businesses face. Fortunately for FIRE, the best run FIRE plans can not outcompete less efficient ones because the product (life enjoyment) does not scale beyond one person.
I think there is a level on which something like this does happen due to the fact that no man is an island. For instance, this is kind of why Lentil Baby is a thing. Providing me with full financial support costs a millionaire-next-door frugal guy less than dating my competition. Like if you look at the cool visualization Fish made on the other thread, you can grok that any given level of frugality could enclose/support another level of frugality, kind of like nesting Matryoshka dolls. But, this only works without friction if moving in same general direction- would not work if "millionaire next door" was not interested in frugality or female companionship. Probably this occurred to me because I was already self-aware frugal and running a small business when I started dating again in mid-life.

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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by jacob »

There aren't a whole lot of books on systems thinking, so I favor reading whatever there is. Given this thread, perhaps some of these will make more sense now:
https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline ... 385517254/
https://www.amazon.com/Images-Organizat ... 412939798/
https://www.amazon.com/Permaculture-Pri ... 646418440/

daylen
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by daylen »


theanimal
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by theanimal »

I know it's not as well liked on here but this one has somewhat of a cult following by systems thinkers elsewhere: https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Be ... 8&qid=&sr=

classical_Liberal
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by classical_Liberal »

My library had The Fifth Discipline on hand. I started it this afternoon. Thanks for all the other suggestions. I'll post thoughts after I've finishing it.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by Stahlmann »

Hmm
Writing here just to come back in future.

Anyway, plz provide whats is visibile (from the outside)/actionable on w6+ levels.

Greetings from the nether worlds btw

Redbird
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by Redbird »

I read The Fifth Discipline and found it thought-provoking. I especially liked the chapter on Personal Mastery but found the rest difficult to apply as I don't normally think of myself as a large organization. :D

Redbird
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by Redbird »

If I understand this discussion correctly, I think this would be another good example of level 6:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/05/0 ... rd-part-1/

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/05/0 ... rd-part-2/

oldbeyond
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by oldbeyond »

@Redbird, thanks for the link.

There's also a lot of permaculture/urban farming resources that seem like good examples of L6 and beyond (I guess I can tell because they seem inspiring?). For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5iJYVnw4ns

classical_Liberal
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by classical_Liberal »

@Redbird
I'm about a quarter of the way through and I have founds everything in Part II very helpful so far. Particularly the concepts of: Linear/causative thought processes (and language) vs systems/circular. Dynamic vs Detail complexity. Time and space gap in actions/reactions. The idea that the best leverage point in a system is almost certainly NOT near the problem, nor is it generally obvious.

I've learn so much in fact, I may need to take a break and try to process what I have so far, and maybe play with the concepts before moving forward. So far I highly recommend. This is coming from someone who has tried permaculture books before and was bored to tears. I do have an inherent baseline interest in business though, my first degree was in business administration.

daylen
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by daylen »

Stahlmann wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:16 am
Anyway, plz provide whats is visibile (from the outside)/actionable on w6+ levels.
This is like asking to describe what a seed grows into just by looking at the composition/genome (..or inversely what the genome is just by looking at the tree). Also similar to why most high school students do not see the purpose of algebra (..and many adults in general).

From the perspective of 3, 5 is seen as too complex/strange until the limitations of 3 and 4 are learned. Same for how 5 percieves 7. The irony is that what seems complex at an earlier level seems much simpler at a later level (by necessity of limited computational ability).

Really what seems to be happening is that the complexity is better compartmentalized [along with redundant connections being eliminated/dissociated] so as to be handled more efficiently across a variety of problems. The current level is unseen because it is what integrates these compartments. Core ideas are stored with alternative memory requirements (somewhat like how a computer uses a hierarchy of memory).

Actionable progression requires practice and persistence like any other skill. Only that practice in this case is life contemplation :) . See Jacob's explanation of Hegelian dialectics.

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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by jacob »

@Redbird - Yes, definitely 6 with some 7 elements. However, this is from my perspective and I'm not sure how useful examples ultimately are pedagogical speaking because different people have different frameworks (Plato's cave problem) and thus interpret examples differently. It's impossible---by construction---to learn a new framework by example. It's something one has to figure out oneself according to what makes sense, ironically, based on examples. It's ultimately a learning process in which new understand is constructed from previous experience based on previous constructions of examples based on previous earlier experience... and so on.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Redbird:

Interesting link to Lost Art Press. Reminded me of what I did right and also what I did wrong* with my own small lifestyle business. I chuckled at the part when he wrote that he would have to clone himself to find a decent employee, because I hired my own kids and their best friends when they were teenagers, so pretty much I did.

*Reading Tim Ferriss and outsourcing to J.Bozo and mistaking variables for constants in my systems design.
classical_Liberal wrote:This is coming from someone who has tried permaculture books before and was bored to tears.
:o :lol:

Even as an experienced gardener, I did not grok permaculture at first read. You have to actually do some work and then go back and read again. I think the more you f*ck up the faster you learn. For instance, the Permaculture Manager and I just copied general instructions for creating a swale without regard for relationship between minimal grade and maximal grass cover. So, kind of like putting a saucer in the low spot of a foam mattress in attempt to catch urine from bed wetter.

OTOH, one of the analogies from "Food Not Lawns", very accessible permaculture title, which clicked a concept for me had to do with how a swale is like feminine energy in sexuality.

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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by jennypenny »

jacob wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:13 pm
In terms of the [self-]pedagogical moats, I think it's possible to split the Wheaton table into three stages that might explain it. I've noticed how noobs always start out by cutting things away. This is why the initial impression as well as the initial strategy of frugality, simple living, voluntary frugality, minimalism, etc. is almost always about sacrificing or perceived sacrifices. Call that stage I... which covers W1-3.

In stage II, there's nothing left to "sacrifice" so the focus turns towards optimizing what remains. This covers W4-5. Also at this point any talk about sacrificing begins to feel noobish/not badass. The mindset has changed.

In stage III, the diminishing returns of stage II become apparent. Integration replaces efficiency and optimization and W6-7 are just increasing levels of integration.

I therefore posit that there's more of a moat from 0 to 1, 3 to 4, and from 5 to 6, respectively than there is between any of the other levels.

... of course this could just be model dredging.
At the risk of further model dredging ...

As I look at three possible tiers in the ERE Wheaton Scale, I'd label them Simple, Complex, and Emergent.
levels 0-2: Simple — Direct results, 1 + 1 = 2
levels 3-5: Complex — Multiple/amplified results, 1 + 1 = 5
levels 6-8: Emergent — Unexpected and unanticipated results, 1 + 1 = banana

The first two tiers are more easily explained to others through (almost) universal behaviors and patterns as long as one is close enough on the scale. They also produce results rather quickly, which makes it easier to demonstrate the usefulness of the behaviors recommended at each level. The Emergent tier is much more difficult to demonstrate/explain because of the uniqueness of each individual's web and the inability to anticipate what might emerge from a robust one.

Emergence can be weak or strong. Weak emergent results might be able to be explained by others in that top tier in hindsight by examining the web and its results. The results might be unexpected but still explainable. These are the kinds of examples that are used to help level 5 people get over that last moat, which people often attempt to describe on the forum (erroneously ascribed to 'serendipity' IMO).

Strong emergent results are completely novel results. They might not be explainable, even by Emergent tier people. That's part of what makes it so hard to give examples to help people reach those top levels. There's not always a clear chain of events or repeatable outcome, and often the results are so unique to the individual's web that they're useless to the observer.

I think part of the appeal of the journals on the forum is that sometimes one can follow along and intuit the kind of strong emergent results I'm talking about and how they are not the result of luck or careful planning. There is a certain amount of faith one needs to jump to that higher tier -- you have to believe that good things will emerge even though you can't explicitly plan for them or follow in anyone's footsteps to achieve them.


@jacob -- forgive my lay attempt at an explanation if I'm way off base :?

Redbird
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Re: Yields and Flows

Post by Redbird »

@classical_Liberal I agree, there's a lot of great stuff in that book. I had to put it down frequently to digest the sentence/paragraph/concept I just read.

@oldbeyond and @7Wannabe5 I haven't gone down the permaculture rabbit hole yet! I'm definitely intrigued, though. So far my gardening has been limited to planting natives that bees, butterflies, and hummingbirds can feed on.

Thank you, @Jacob and @jennypenny, for the additional clarification. I suppose it's like knowing about something vs knowing it directly through subjective experience.

For my own situation, I'm starting to feel I need to discard some of the old framework to allow space for a new framework rather than my initial thinking of trying to create a new framework under the old one.

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