Apartment homesteading?

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

Alphaville wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:24 pm
i treat my bathroom as a clean room. yes, crap goes down the pipes etc, but ideally this the room where i go in dirty and come out clean and refreshed. being that i keep my first aid kit there i can also go in to treat a wound or burn or whatever.

for me it's not a matter of mere appearances or people's opinions (my life is mine) but of biohazard and useful compartamentalization of spaces. same as not eating on the bed or keeping paint thinner in the refrigerator, i'd rather have independent modules and prevent clutter.

i think it might be easier to social-engineer landlord acquiesence to quail cage and thermoregulation & pest control of outdoor cages, than it is to rig sanitary bathroom cage controls etc.

shape of backyard sounds great and sufficient and you could have more birds. racoons could be a problem (they are for chickens) but something like an electric rabbit fence might keep them away. light is the same as indoors? not saying "do this"--just a thought.

roof terraces could also be an option as demonstrated new york pigeon breeders.
Right but things get a bit more complicated in very small spaces that must be multipurpose. For example, my refrigerator is located right next to my bathroom door, my stove is next to that, my microgreen/worm shelf is also to the left of the bathroom door. My bed is less than 8ft from my kitchen. It’s a 300 sqft studio, so by definition every space is multifunctional.

I do wonder about the biohazard of keeping healthy birds in a bathroom vs a litter box, bird cage, or those puppy pads in a living space, all of which I have seen commonly in apartments. This is a genuine question, as most of the research I’ve seen is specific to chickens or indoor birds and doesn’t really seem to go beyond the basic, “clean the cage regularly and wash your hands before/after handling.” I know there are disease risks when living in close contact with animals, but how would my indoor setup risk compare to say, a pet with trace feces on their paws sleeping in bed with owners and climbing over every surface in the house?

Alphaville
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

yeah i live in a studio too (it's bigger--but for 2 people!) so i hear you there. but while spaces are adjacent, we try to keep some functional separation.

e.g, we have a cooking day and a laundry day, and they're different days so that the clothes don't stink of onions, for example. we also work here! 2 people. but we don't bring office stuff to the bed. reading ok though.

we don't keep a pet here for that reason--no place to get away from the shitbox. had a friend who i think went nuts, we went to visit him once, he had 5 cats in a 2br apartment, and everywhere it reeked of piss. he got accustomed to it i think.

also i started looking at quail cages and sez they need a "dust bath." bird dust on the towels, on toothbrushes, that sort of thing... idk. but ymmv.

this one mentions the dust baths https://www.thehappychickencoop.com/the ... uail-easy/

if you have extra bathroom space, a nice big fern might work better to help oxygenate when the windows are locked, or some of those nasa plants that clean the air or something. (i edited in some note about plants that are not in your quote).

a living space needs room for rest and recreation, and for us the bathroom is that. and yeah we take long showers and play music and chill there. then again ofc everyone lives differently. we like a fun bathroom. check this movie: https://vimeo.com/327649857

anyway, when we had an indoor cat in the cabin or in bigger apartments or house than this one, we trained him to stay clear of the kitchen. true story. cuz i want no shitty paws on my food counter--disgusting. that was a great cat.

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

@Alphaville

Yeah I don’t think I could do this space with 2 people, especially since I’ve been working from home exclusively so I’m here all day. I agree about having some functional separation, since I have a dining room, office, bedroom, kitchen, closet, and bathroom area (even if they are all in one room). No washing machine in here so I go to a friend’s house for that. With my vent fan and bathroom fan going I actually don’t have issues with cooking odors soaking into things, but I also don’t cook super aromatic foods very often.

I feel like I may not be describing my bathroom space very well, but basically this large cabinet is located in its own little cubby that is separated from the shower and quite far away from the sink and toilet. But if my dust mitigation strategies don’t work then you may be right in the end. I will post a log of my setup if I end up doing it.

Dust baths are important to reduce stress and parasites. Basically the quail can’t regulate body temperature very well if they get wet, so they only clean themselves with dust baths. I’d opt for giving it to them once a week (along with some sprouts or fodder), as per the recommendation of a YouTuber who has a very successful small scale commercial operation. The downside with having the dust bath in there 24/7 is that the birds will poop in it and lay eggs in it too, which means it would require much more frequent cleaning and reaching into the cage to harvest eggs.

My understanding is that the filtering power of indoor plants is way overblown because that NASA study doesn’t translate to real spaces: https://www.sciencealert.com/sorry-your ... ny-cleaner

I will still have some small plants around the cage to give the quail a more natural setting and also take advantage of the wide spectrum bulb that will be on 14 hours a day to ensure consistent laying. Maybe there is a way to use that same light to grow some food for them to eat.

Alphaville
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

yeah, we do the shared space with the helps of headphones, one being a noise cancelling type :lol:

and i know that the nasa thing is only for space, but in winter we keep windows tight, so why not. ofc i'd rather have fresh air all day, but sometimes it's not possible to open windows. so if i will have plants then a little benefit is better than mere room decor. plus houseplants just look and feel great.

anyway, so, this cabinet, it's like a towel closet or something ? i had a cabinet like that once. we actually tried having the catbox at the bottom but it didn't work out.

anyway i feel i need to explain that i can't be right or wrong, as this is not a decision that would apply to me, so i would not be able to judge success or failure on someone else's terms.

and i'm not trying to be "right" in the sense that this is not a debate or something. i'm only interested in exploring ideas. so there are certain limits i'm familiar with, and some of them may apply here, so i thought since we help each other out with projects, i'd mention some potential hurdles. but this is your experiment not mine, so i look forward to learning from it same as everyone.

i did read the bit about quail raised indoor in japan, but afaik japan doesn't have a tradition of central air in homes--their spaces are more open, so people heat up under tables etc. ive read of people using kerosene heaters which would kill you in a usa home. anyway, i'd check that to see how it's applied in their context.

the other thing i saw was how you just need 1sqft per quail, and how a mature quail lays 1 egg a day, so the obvious question to ask is how many eggs do you need per day, as quail eggs are tiny, which tells you how many birds you need. plus space plus food storage plus cleaning area plus plus plus.

another thing i read is cages need daily cleaning? which carting cages from bathroom to outdoor might be a chore.

so, assuming an imperfect record of 6 eggs per week 1 sqft + overhead + labor gives you about 1 chicken egg equivalent per week? chicken egg costs about 10c at the store for regular, 50c for the hippiest most organic egg laid by druid hens.

i know not everything is money, but calculations are helpful.

maybe the way to learn is to get started with bird as pets and scale up if successful?

im thinking eating 2 chicken eggs equivalent a day would require about 12 laying quails or 12sqft just for moving about, not counting support structure. so starting with say 2 or 3 "pet" quails might give you an idea of this is doable.

Alphaville
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

To Make a Building Healthier, Stop Sanitizing Everything
Improve the ventilation, even spread some good germs. If you want people to be healthy and productive, tend the microbiome.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... re-viruses

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

@Alphaville

Lifetime Yield (per bird)
• 290 quail eggs = 72 chicken eggs = 6 dozen chicken eggs = $18 (valued at $3 per dozen eggs)
• Meat = $3 (this is an arbitrary personal valuation, market value is closer to $5 per bird, but I’m not usually buying quail)
• Poultry Manure (one bird’s share over lifetime) = 5 gallon/25 lb (monthly bucket produced by all birds) /12 *10 = $4
• Total = $25

Profit (per bird)
• $5 food savings
• $5 fertilizer savings*

Other benefits
• Learn animal husbandry skills
• Close loop on fertilizer and part of my food chain
• Self-sufficiency/resiliency
• No packaging for store purchased chicken eggs
• No emissions to transport eggs to store

*Assumes I have productive use for manure or sell it on Craigslist.

If don’t factor in my labor, I make about $10 per bird. If I do factor in labor paying myself minimum wage, then I’m losing $1.70 over the lifetime per bird. Live Feed Conversation Ratio is similar to factory farmed chicken eggs.

Keep in mind I’m designing my system intelligently to require minimal labor and we’re talking about 30 min of weekly work in my own house.
Note that this is the simplest and least optimized iteration of the system. Likely over time I would figure out ways to reduce costs or improve efficiency by hatching my own birds, harvesting more males for meat, selling off some live birds, etc. I also factored in costs for water/electricity even though it’s usually included in my rent.

Stocking density can go as high as 4 quail per sq ft without any issues, especially since laying hens require less space than mixed groups that are mating. Daily cleaning is not required for cages with a wire bottom. I anticipate weekly labor of 20 min with a wire bottom setup of an automatic waterer and feeder.

I think I'll end up doing it in my friend's garage at the moment, so that will result in me not having to do much other than make the cage and eat the eggs. Win win.

Alphaville
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

@wb

garage ftw.

i'm eager to read updates on this.

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

Microgreens

Broccoli tray (20x10 in) Input
• Seeds (20g) – $1.23 (will drop to $.37 if I buy larger quantities and source from different place)
• Water (3/4 gallon) (may have been as low as ½ gallon because I didn’t track this very carefully)
• Miracle Gro (.5 tsp) - $.02
• Electricity (2.16 kwH) - $.24 (typically comes out to $.08 per tray but I only made 1 tray this batch)
• Non-Chlorine Recycled Paper towel (4 sheets) – $.06
• CapEx depreciation/cost - $.10 (this conservative estimate to account for all expenses, most of it is LED light depreciation)
Total: $1.65 (optimized version will be $.61 per tray)

Output
• Edible microgreens – 150 grams (~5 oz)
• Root/seeds/paper towel for worm composting bin

Comparison to store-bought spinach
• Store bought spinach is $.34 per oz
- My microgreens are $.33 per oz to produce

Image

This is still experimental and only my 2nd batch of microgreens ever, so there is still lots of room for improvement. My germination and growth rate were slow, so next time I’m going to try adding some weight to improve germination. I accidentally let the tray dry out slightly twice, which may have slowed down growth. Now I know I need to water these daily with the winter low-indoor humidity. I’m also not sure if I harvested these a day or 2 early. It was at the 14 day mark and they were under lights for 9 days, but I’m thinking with the cooler temperatures that maybe they should have gone longer. I’m still getting the hang of harvesting the greens and I think I’m cutting them a little high so I’m losing some stem weight. I’d like to get harvests over 200g per tray.

I noticed these were a bit more damp when I was harvesting them, so I think I might need to set up a computer fan to provide better ventilation next time. I’ve been relying on a fan I use for white noise when I sleep to blow on them for 8 hours a night, but I think by growing them hydroponically I need to better balance moisture and ventilation. I didn’t see any visible mold, but I did notice the tray smelled a bit more musty than the first batch I made in soil. Nevertheless, I’d say the experiment was a success, and with some tweaking I should be able to get the same output as using soil at a fraction of the cost.

Next, I will try increasing the seed density based on a video I saw as it might increase output per gram of seed. I also want to get proper hydroponic trays with holes instead of using the DIY drilled versions, which didn’t give me the greatest root structure.

In the future, I might try using a fine mesh screen instead of paper towel, but I don’t think it would be worth it without some kind of auto-watering system since there will likely be more evaporation. I could potentially double layer the paper towel and see if I can go back to watering every other day like I did for soil. Once I have some worm castings I will try making worm tea and using that as the fertilizer/watering source instead of the Miracle Gro.

Conclusions
Does this make sense from a financial perspective? I think it makes sense since I’m saving money on food (more so once I optimize my process), along with not needing to go to the grocery store or rely on the industrial food supply chain. I didn’t include labor because it’s so minimal per tray that it’s virtually non-existent, I’m learning skills, and I enjoy it anyway.

Does this make sense in a low energy-intensity future? I think yes. Keep in mind these were grown completely indoors, so this is a viable strategy year around in any location and does not take away from existing arable lands. It gives you access to the rich micronutrients in greens at a time (winter) when growing leafy vegetables is not viable. Additionally, these types of vegetables typically don’t preserve well because they lose a lot of nutritional value. I suspect that LED lights and some electricity will still exist in the future, but alternatively one could modify this strategy to do it outdoors with natural light (but then you will lose output to pests, weather, etc). I believe these are very water efficient, with less than a gallon of water needed per tray from seed to harvest.

The one thing that does concern me about the sustainability of microgreens is that they are extremely seed intensive. You can’t save seeds because you are eating the plants before they get to the flowering stage. I don’t understand seed propagation that well, so I don’t know how viable it will be in the future to use 20 grams of seeds to make 200 grams of leafy green vegetables. Google tells me that one broccoli plant can produce ~20 grams of seeds.

Worm Composting
My worm bin has been chugging along with no issues. I still think I have another few months until I need to worry about harvesting any castings. One thing I have noticed is that there are some castings falling through one of the drainage holes on the bottom (the screen ripped off). I wonder if I could remove the screens on the rest of the drainage holes and get a continuous harvest of worm castings just from what falls through the bottom. Obviously, I will still eventually have to sift through the whole container to get the majority of castings, but for now it seems to fall through naturally. I don’t need very much to make a gallon of worm tea for microgreens. I thought the worms might try to escape out of the drainage hole, but it seems they exclusively climb the walls of the container towards the lid if they are trying to make a jail break.

Mycology
I was reading some things about mushrooms and then saw that someone in their journal was growing them. At first, I was trying to figure out how to incorporate mushrooms into my apartment homestead system. I was thinking through how to keep them humid when it dawned on me that I already have an enclosed place that is perpetually humid: my worm bin. There are a few accounts of people having mushrooms spawn in their worm bins unintentionally, which is what gives me hope that this might work. I started with ordering one of those mushroom growing kits which already have inoculated substrate that I just plan on placing on the surface of the worm bedding. If this experiment works, then I might try to grow on coffee grounds as a substrate (they are already pasteurized so risk of contamination is lower) placed on cardboard on the surface of the worm bin.

Issues I foresee are that the air flow in the bin might not be enough because both worms and mushrooms breathe oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide (I could mitigate this by drilling more holes). The mushrooms could be contaminated by something else in the bin, although it seems like contamination is less common after inoculation. The worms could start eating the inoculated mushrooms, although I think this is unlikely if I have some barrier cardboard and because worms don’t like to feed on surface food. Another issue is that the bin could be too dark to get the mushrooms to effectively flower, but if that’s the case I could cut some holes in the lid and cover in clear plastic to allow more light in to the mushrooms (would also deter worms from being on the surface). If the first batch works then I’ll likely drill a hole in the side of the bin and glue an analog hygrometer so that I can easily see humidity levels of the bin without having to open it.

I don’t really eat mushrooms right now, but I will be happy to incorporate them into my diet if this works. I see them as a bonus crop that can give me more yield and fit into my system with virtually no extra labor or resources.

Quail
Quail are on hold for now. Although my friend wants to get them, I’m hesitant to commit until I know where I’ll be moving this summer. If it’s within driving distance then I may take the quail with me when I move. The plan would still be to raise them in her garage instead of my studio. I should have an update on these in the next few weeks. We did try some store bought quail eggs and they were delicious.

Other Thoughts
I’ve noticed there really is a lack of resources for people trying to homestead and do biointensive food production on <1000 sqft of space. It seems the “urban permaculture” sites I’ve seen online and in books are usually 1/10 to ¼ of an acre, which to me is more like a suburban space. Conventional apartment gardening advice just talks about how to grow a tomato in a balcony container, but doesn’t really put any systems thinking into the process. Maybe there’s an opportunity for a blog or Youtube channel to fill the void, because I know most people live in urban areas and yet I see so little of permaculture implemented anywhere smaller than a suburban lot.
Last edited by white belt on Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mathiverse
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by mathiverse »

white belt wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:25 pm
Microgreens
...

Comparison to store-bought spinach
• $.34 per ounce (5 oz package is $1.70)
Are you saying yours cost $0.34 per ounce and the grocery store's costs $1.70 per ounce? Just want to make sure I understood this correctly.

Thanks for the thorough write up!

ETA:
white belt wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I’ve noticed there really is a lack of resources for people trying to homestead and do biointensive food production on <1000 sqft of space. It seems the “urban permaculture” sites I’ve seen online and in books are usually 1/10 to ¼ of an acre, which to me is more like a suburban space. Conventional apartment gardening advice just talks about how to grow a tomato in a balcony container, but doesn’t really put any systems thinking into the process. Maybe there’s an opportunity for a blog or Youtube channel to fill the void, because I know most people live in urban areas and yet I see so little of permaculture implemented anywhere smaller than a suburban lot.
I'd be interested if you made videos about this! Your post here about maximizing the space available in a row house was interesting. Seeing that kind of analysis and implementation in an even smaller space would be great.
Last edited by mathiverse on Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

mathiverse wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:46 pm
Are you saying yours cost $0.34 per ounce and the grocery store's costs $1.70 per ounce? Just want to make sure I understood this correctly.

Thanks for the thorough write up!
I’m saying that grocery store spinach I looked at cost $1.70 per 5 oz package or $.34 per oz.
Last edited by white belt on Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mathiverse
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by mathiverse »

white belt wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:48 pm
I’m saying that grocery store spinach I looked at cost $.34 per oz or $1.70 per 5 oz package.
Oh, thanks for the clarification! Looking back at your post I see the numbers for your set up: $1.65 per 5 oz which I didn't register at first.

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

mathiverse wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:51 pm
Oh, thanks for the clarification! Looking back at your post I see the numbers for your set up: $1.65 per 5 oz which I didn't register at first.
Yup. Not great numbers, but most of my costs are seeds that I had to buy in small quantities so they were much more expensive. With buying bulk seeds and making a few other small improvements, my total production cost for broccoli microgreens would be <$.12 per oz.

Edit: It is somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison because microgreens are more nutritious than spinach and also sell for a lot more retail, but since I wouldn’t ever buy microgreens at a store I just used that comparison.

Western Red Cedar
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Western Red Cedar »

@whitebelt - I think there would be a demand for more information on permaculture or intensive agriculture in small spaces. I haven't come across much on YouTube or the web. You've put together some great information on the forums and challenged some of my laziness on this front. I noticed that there was a recent trend of acquiring expensive houseplants among millennials.

I think growing food (not permaculture) is more common in certain Asian communities as apartments are more common, and there is still a strong cultural connection to locally grown food. In S. Korea, I noticed small balconies and rooftop gardens supporting small gardens; particularly outside of Seoul or the larger metropolitan areas. There was also an emphasis on community gardens among the 60+ population outside of the major metros. This was an important source of community for that population. C40's journal had a couple photos of intensive gardens planted in random spots in Vietnam.

Combining microgreens and other options inside an apartment or condo with a community garden or allotment could probably significantly improve one's diet and environmental footprint. Keep posting please.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6919
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Have you looked into vertical growing systems? My permaculture partner built a couple different vertical systems out of pallet wood and scrap plumbing pipe. I had some success with just hanging grow bags on a metal fence. Even the slope provided by a modest hugelbed increases available growing surface area by a surprisingly large amount. Would a reflective surface applied to rear of balcony help? What are your guerilla gardening plans?

sky
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by sky »

After spending a lot of time and money developing an automated watering system that can be used for microgreens or hydroponics, I am going to switch to soil based microgreens on a lighted rack/shelf system. I am planning to restart a continuous harvest broccoli microgreen farm using a soil + earthworms in trays. The major benefit of this system is reusing the soil in trays. I like the soil + worms method because it reduces soil costs, but mostly because it is a vermicomposting system where the worms eat the spent root and stem mass. My composting pile outside is full of worms, but it is frozen at the moment, so I am waiting until warm temperatures when I can gather worms to start this system.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 13079
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by jacob »

sky wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:26 pm
My composting pile outside is full of worms, but it is frozen at the moment, so I am waiting until warm temperatures when I can gather worms to start this system.
Gather? Which kind do you use and where do you find them. I transfer my worms indoors (basement) in a rubbermaid container for overwintering.

sky
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by sky »

My worms naturally appeared when I started piling kitchen scraps on the ground.

Alphaville
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

sky wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:26 pm
I am going to switch to soil based microgreens on a lighted rack/shelf system. I am planning to restart a continuous harvest broccoli microgreen farm using a soil + earthworms in trays.
could you please outline your system and how it would work? i've watched a lot of youtubes of trays that require constant spraying and fighting molds and this and that... i'd like if possible some sort of "set it and forget it" system. auto timer for lightS, sure. checking on roots and spraying twice a day for 8-14 continued days is not my thing--creates a kind of "schedule clutter" which is a setup for "attention deficit" by yours truly.

sky
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by sky »

I will copy this guy's method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs-S6k16wLc

I'm not sure how often it needs to be watered, maybe every 3 to 4 days.

white belt
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

@Sky

I’ll be following along for updates. I have the worms already so I could perhaps try a similar system. I know you linked to someone on YouTube doing it so maybe I’ll try that before getting hydroponic trays. I’ve been using one of those metal shelves from a big box store and it works really well. I just zip tied the lights to the bottom of a shelf and ran the wires along one of the legs.


@Alphaville

I grew my first batch of microgreens in soil and it didn’t require much labor. I planted the seeds and sprayed them with water to get them damp, then stacked them for 4-5 days so they could germinate. I may have sprayed them one more time during germination just to keep them damp.

At day 5 I put them under lights on a 12 hour timer. I bottom watered them once every 2 days and that was it. Harvest around day 12-14. There wasn’t really any daily checking involved. At some point I might add a simple gravity fed auto watering system using irrigation tubing and a 5 gallon bucket, but I haven’t built it yet. The nice thing with microgreens is that since their growing cycle is so short, if you know you are going out of town then you can just not start a new batch.

Edit: My only concern about reusing soil is the possibility of plant diseases, but I’m unsure how common those are with microgreens. Also I believe I read that red worms carry some pathogens but I need to do some digging to find it.

Post Reply