COVID topic vol 2

[classical_Liberal]

...

[white belt]

There's a concept in health care of "do no harm". Healthy, young people who were never at serious risk from COVID, experimenting on them with the chance adverse effects is just a bit unethical. In contrast, for people who are literally on death's door, receiving an experimental treatment that may or may not help has different ethical concerns... IOW, how can we not, if they are going to die if we do nothing. Then there's everything in between in which risks and rewards are considered.

Right so instead we opted to cause significantly more economic, psychological, and social harm with lockdowns and business closures. I don’t want to just turn this into another debate about lockdowns, but I understand that what you’re saying does explain the “why” of medical practices. As the article points out, has the risk calculus changed with regards to vaccines in the modern era since it is now possible to roll out a vaccine prior to a disease having a large impact?

I guess what we saw with COVID is that most people are siloed in their own bubbles and areas of expertise, but something like a global pandemic is a complex systems problem that intersects multiple disparate fields with nth order effects. Western democracies seemed woefully unprepared to deal with a problem of this type.

[classical_Liberal]

...

[nomadscientist]

I'd be more likely to believe that if other countries were vaccinating on that time scale. No one was. The couple that came up with the vaccine was in Germany. It was an international effort. If there was something worth the risk of using, then western countries would have done so before now. (I'm not counting China because the personal risk/government control equation is different.)

Also, other elected leaders that controlled their pandemics better, also without a vaccine, won their re-elections in landslides.

What has happened to date is nothing short of miraculous. When this really started to hit the fan in February, I thought we were looking at 2-3 years for a vaccine, not 11 months. It is amazing.

No West bubble country is going to develop a vaccine by a process that means it won't be licensed in the US.

[Ego]

To be clear, I don't think it will be mandatory.

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of being compelled to get the vaccine if we want to keep the gig. That said, the owner is even more anti-lockdown than us so who knows. I can envision a future where business insurance refused to cover liability due to unvaccinated employees. We shall see.

[Toska2]

I thought I heard reports of people catching it twice and/or this was a rapidly mutating virus.

Ergo; any vaccine will be a quarterly injection. What is your people's opinion on tying vaccinations with any employment?

Edit: I dont see that much "compliance in spirit" around this midwest town. Maybe half of the small business employees wear a mask. 60% of people wearing masks are pulled down their nose. A mandatory vaccine outside birth and employment (hep b) seems impossible.

[tonyedgecombe]

I thought I heard reports of people catching it twice and/or this was a rapidly mutating virus.

My understanding is neither of those is generally true. It doesn’t evolve that quickly and there have been just a handful of cases where people have had it a second time without having a compromised immune system.

[plow_2]

A note about hydroxychloroquine

I'm a pharmacist in a large hospital. Hydroxychloroquine is an old drug.
-The problem with hydroxychloroquine is that Trump talked about it and it's an election year.
-A week before Trump first mentioned it I heard that pharmacies couldn't' keep it on the shelf because all of the doctors were writing rx's for it for themselves and their families.
-Hydroxychloroquine causes QT prolongation, as does azithromycin, increasing risk for ventricular fibrillation=increased risk of death.
-Trials showed increase risk of death. Keep in mind that people with mild covid weren't being given Hydroxychloroquine in an effort to save it. What that means is that the people primarily were getting the drug were already at an increased risk of death.
-Does hydroxychloroquine work for void? don't know
-Does it really increase risk of death in covid patients? don't know. The Lancet published a big study indicating this but it was retracted shortly thereafter.
Maybe if it hadn't become political we'd have a better idea.

[Stahlmann]

In this part of world:

Immunological and haematological patients have virtually no options for treatment.

[CS]

No West bubble country is going to develop a vaccine by a process that means it won't be licensed in the US.

Based on what? This seems an unrelated argument.

[CS]

I think it will be mandatory for hospital workers and students, same as for many other vaccines. I don't think titers are going to cut it as for many other diseases because of the short antibody life - this and it's mutation rate. While not as fast changing as the flu, it is not negligible.

The insurance argument is a good one too... once the civil lawsuits start flying, things will likely tighten up for companies wanting to protect their butts. I'm a little curious (and none sympathetic) on what is going to happen to those long term care workers that went to a 300 person wedding against state rules and ended up killing 6 residents.

[Riggerjack]

@ white belt

I think you may be underestimating the problems new vaccines pose.

As was said back in the beginning of the year, making a vaccine is fast, cheap, and simple. Making a vaccine that is effective and safe, is not.

I was in the army during desert shield/desert storm. Odd that the wiki about the anthrax vaccine doesn't mention the involuntary experimental dosing of all those soldiers who deployed. I served with those soldiers a few years post deployment, and didn't see any GWS.

I have seen gulf war syndrome in a veteran coworker. Once the body and mind break down to the point that sleep doesn't work anymore, there are no good outcomes. I don't know that GWS came from the vaccine, but autoimmune disorders aren't well understood, in general, and political hand grenades like GWS never will be.

My grandfather died from heart problems in his 40's. Heart problems he developed in his 20's from yellow fever that he contracted from a navy experimental yellow fever vaccine.

If one looks at the risk/benefit of one vaccine rollout, one will come to an entirely different conclusion, than if one considers negative outcomes of a series of vaccine rollouts.

Perhaps this is a better way of looking at the risks. Perhaps not. But one should consider both scenarios before drawing a conclusion.

[Jean]

I don't see how it's fair that young people would have to take the risk (how low it is) required to protect the ability of old people to enjoy a state sponsored retirerment (being trough war to keep oil cheap and maintain growth, redistribution, rescuing of financial institution) that young people themselves will never enjoy.
I am not responsible for organism or viri that transit trough my body.

[7Wannabe5]

@Jean:

I think I heard a toddler say that while he was dumping a load on the floor of a fancy restaurant just before Jordan Peterson smacked him down.

IOW, I think one of the maybe first 3 rules made by humans or pre-humans was in opposition to that statement.

[Jean]

Breathing needs to happen too often for it to be considered like something humans should learn to control.
It's unfair sacrifice the health of everyone just for a minority. Especialy for something that kill people who are either above life expectancy, or suffer from an avoidable condition. I'll consider any attempt to inoculate me anything against my will as an agression. That's proabably less silly than considering singing as an agression.

[nomadscientist]

I thought I heard reports of people catching it twice and/or this was a rapidly mutating virus.

Generally speaking if journalists imply something strongly but in a way that couldn't be held against them in court, that thing is almost certainly false.

Based on what? This seems an unrelated argument.

Based on the fact it's the biggest market in that Bubble.

Vaccines from other Bubbles don't exist e.g. the Russian vaccine which doesn't exist [here].

The Bubbles which were hard-nosed enough to do human challenge trials squashed covid by other means back in April so why would they court the controversy just to benefit foreigners [who will pretend they don't exist anyway].

[Ego]

https://mbio.asm.org/content/11/6/e02628-20

Analysis of Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Titers of Recovered COVID-19 Patients

Those with high mumps titers from the MMRII vaccine were "Functionally Immune" to Covid.

In the MMR II group, 5 of 50 subjects had mumps titers of 182 AU/ml or above, and all 5 of these subjects, ranging in age from 21 to 41, were functionally immune. Functionally immune subjects tested negative in severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) nasopharyngeal and/or SARS-CoV-2 antibody tests. Each had had several days of extensive exposure to an actively symptomatic person who was positive for SARS-CoV-2, e.g., a housemate or a spouse. These subjects took no social distancing or other precautions such as wearing masks. Despite this, the functionally immune subjects never tested positive for COVID-19 despite the ease of transmission of SARS-CoV-2.

[Jean]

[url]https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download[\url]
Vaccines and Related Biological Products A dvisory Committee MeetingDecember 10, 2020

I think the faces paralysis (.2%) will have people talk about them.

[Ego]

I listened to TWiV while running today regarding the MMR vaccine. I've been listening to the podcase for years and I am not sure I ever heard them give advice like this:

https://youtu.be/4hGVeZGfEnU?t=5284

The MMR vaccination costs $135 at the CVS clinic.

https://www.cvs.com/minuteclinic/services/price-lists

That said, Vincent mentioned that he cannot think of a reason not to get it. I can think of one. If you are anticipating being someone who qualifies for early Covid vaccination, there may be a waiting period between between previous vaccinations and the Covid vaccine. I did a simple search and couldn't find out if they are requiring a 30 day wait between vaccinations but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

[jacob]

The immune system is a complex learning system. It's not necessarily linear in that effectivity = sum of doses. "Training" it with different vaccines simultaneously might not be [as] effective. Of course, MMR trains for three at the same time.

I'm trying to remember if I was ever vaccinated for two different sets of diseases at once or whether I had to come back 1-2 weeks later for the other. I'm 60-70% yes.

I'm guessing that as long as the vaccine is new it makes sense to avoid compounding. Insofar you get an adverse reaction you wouldn't know the source (is it one or the other or the combination of them that causes the issue) and therefore not be sure of the treatment. Same reason doctors don't like to cut into the body in two separate places during one visit in case one site develops an infection.