Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

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Lanerdros
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Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Lanerdros »

This didn't really fit anywhere else, but this subject seems to do. I'm new here, so let me know if I'm breaking any rules!
Context:
-I live in Canada. I am 20 years old, and in university to become a Registered Nurse. I also hold a job as a hospital clerk, and have picked up an additional teporary job doing nursing support. These both pay well, and I will likely graduate with a small bouncing off point (thanks frugality) of about 30k, most of which will obviously be invested.
-My S/O (in school to become a teacher) and I (we are going to assume for discussion this relationship carries forward) have grown up with lots of rural influence. We want to homestead to make ourselves as environmentally friendly as possible and live cheap. We are looking for ways to reduce the need for any costs and be self-sufficient, ideally in a manner that makes things repairable. Please critique this plan. Avoid saying things like "this will be hard." We know. We ain't here for the easy ride.

The plan for the homestead:

Alright, so we've got several needs:
1. Shelter
We will likely build a house ourselves our of trees we fell on a rural property we buy. I have family help to do this- my father has built several homes, and I do indeed have two working hands. We will likely purchase a portable sawmill to do this (about 10k) which can also be used after this is set up should we need any wood. We will keep it small, probably about 700-900 sqft for the two of us. We do not intend on kids. Utility details to come later. Once we have the money to do this and are freed from our jobs, we will buy in one of the few areas of Canada that is warm. The area in question is also very cheap due to a terrible local job market, but that isn't our problem if we make our money elsewhere and then move. Cost once set up: Maintenance only, all done ourselves, so quite cheap. Let's say $1000/year.
2. Water
A well. We want it electrical (which we will supply with solar panels. This will serve for all water needs. We also want it to be manual, so if the electricity goes out we can still get water. Cost once set up: Solar panel maintaining. Minimal, so we won't worry about it.
3. Food
We wish to grow all of our own food, without exception. Squash, grains, vegetables, and chickens+eggs are on the menu. Now if only I can convince my S/O that a cow isn't worth it.... :lol: Cost once set up: How much does it cost to replace a hoe? Not much, perhaps chicken coop maintenance. We will re-plant seeds each year from previous years. $200/yr, very possibly negative if we produce extra and sell it.
4. Heating
We will heat using several things:
-Passive solar heating, which we will incorporate into the build
-Electric heating, considering the space is small and solar panels will supply it
-A wood stove, in case the above is unreliable in a particularly bad winter, and because I like my fire. We can get all the wood ourselves. Cost once set up: Again, minimal maintenance. I'm going to stop saying this.
5. Personal hygeine/Clothing needs: We do need medical and dental insurance (surprise, Canada only has a pseudo public health system). this will run us a couple thousand a year, let's say $3k. We can repair clothes, and having a sheep to make wool is on the table. We can make soap, but will very likely buy some along with toothpaste, shaving equipment, and the like.
6. The government not to take away our property due to lack of paying property tax: About $2k/year
7. A root cellar for food storage. Canning is king.

We estimate that, including 10-20acres of land, the cost to set all of this up will be $300-400k CAD tops in our target location. Ongoing costs, per this very vague estimate, are about 8k/year including maintaining things. A $150-200k portfolio would cover this well, and getting a job with our in-demand and varied professions would be a very easy stopgap, and with all this farming we will likely produce an abundance of food to either sell or give to the less fortunate to boost our income/social safety net with reputation that would come from donating it.

This puts our total "money we need in assets right now" to retire number at $450-600k. We could quite easily save this in 6 or 7 years, without any overtime or additional sources of income, after we graduate. We both have impressive resumes and connections, so getting jobs should not be too hard. We are going to ignore what money we have in CPP (basically social security, mandatory investment of about 6% of your income as a Canadain) so this will act as a nice little safety net for us.

Alright folks. Attack my plan. Show no mercy. We, together, shall make this homesteading idea bulletproof.
Last edited by Lanerdros on Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Lanerdros
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Lanerdros »

Side note, and an additional comment: We will likely have an income from the berry farming I want to do to sell, I love berry bushes! We have included solar and well costs in that (vague) estimate. The house is mainly cheap because we will be building it ourselves with the help of experienced family, and it is small.

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Alphaville
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Alphaville »

Lanerdros wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Alright folks. Attack my plan. Show no mercy. We, together, shall make this homesteading idea bulletproof.
no shooting—it looks cool! but some lateral thoughts for the food front:
Lanerdros wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm
3. Food
We wish to grow all of our own food, without exception. Gourds, grains, vegetables, and chickens+eggs are on the menu. Now if only I can convince me S/O that a cow isn't worth it.... :lol: Cost once set up: How much does it cost to replace a hoe? Not much, perhaps chicken coop maintenance. We will re-plant seeds each year from previous years. $200/yr, very possibly negative if we produce extra and sell it.
a regular cow is a real pain and can kill you, but there are breeds of miniature cattle that could work for you, easier to handle.
https://rurallivingtoday.com/livestock/ ... mall-farm/

i only know big cows and they’re a PITA, need a lot of water, and you need to constantly buy hay, and they crap all over and attract flies... ooof! i don’t like cows. they’re tasty though...

alternatively, a small goat for milk: https://animals.mom.me/pygmy-goats-comp ... -3140.html

you might want to learn cheesemaking.

only trouble with goats is their continuous source of comedy, as they jump on everything, scratch your car, eat your trees :lol:

nevertheless, if your partner wants cows for meat, i’d look into rabbits for meat productivity...

i’ve raised chickens for eggs, and it was a royal mess, smelly too, and they can render a patch of land bare very quickly. but i have a cousin who raised rabbits, and it was a very streamlined operation. if/when i go back to the sticks, i might look into rabbit cages for meat. plus you can use the fur in your latitude.

using cornish rex chicken breeds for meat production seems to me a bit cruel... the poor monsters.

pigs are gloriously efficient converters and will recycle your kitchens scraps better than a compost pile, but i don’t know if i could kill and butcher a pig... i’ve butchered sheep though, but takes a group to do efficiently. rabbits otoh are quickly skinned.

my issue with grain is that it invites rodents. i hate rodents.

as for veggies, don’t forget the mighty potato. protein and vitamin c in one awesome package. yukon golds! yum.

Lanerdros
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Lanerdros »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:58 pm

i’ve raised chickens for eggs, and it was a royal mess, smelly too, and they can render a patch of land bare very quickly. but i have a cousin who raised rabbits, and it was a very streamlined operation. if/when i go back to the sticks, i might look into rabbit cages for meat. plus you can use the fur in your latitude.

using cornish rex chicken breeds for meat production seems to me a bit cruel... the poor monsters.

pigs are gloriously efficient converters and will recycle your kitchens scraps better than a compost pile, but i don’t know if i could kill and butcher a pig... i’ve butchered sheep though, but takes a group to do efficiently. rabbits otoh are quickly skinned.

my issue with grain is that it invites rodents. i hate rodents.

as for veggies, don’t forget the mighty potato. protein and vitamin c in one awesome package. yukon golds! yum.
I did not consider rabbits. That might be an interesting one! I agree chickens are a bit of a pain- I see them as the best source of protein, but perhaps after my nutrition course in university, which is beginning in a month, I can change that opinion of mine (or, more realistically, when I get off my ass and google plant protein I can grow)
Yeah, I wouldn't want to breed chickens just for meat. Rabbits, though, I do love a good rabbit stew.
I will consider pigs! I've heard mother pigs can be viscous, though, and ideally I'd like to make a profit, though I imagine we could always sell an adult pig and purchase countless fresh piglets with the meat money, with bacon left over.

Potatoes are absolutely on the menu. Can't go without! Love all forms of root vegetables.

A good point about the grain, and something we will consider.

sky
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by sky »

1. There is no place in Canada that is warm in the winter.
2. Gourds are not edible.

Lanerdros
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Lanerdros »

sky wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:06 pm
1. There is no place in Canada that is warm in the winter.
2. Gourds are not edible.
1. There is, actually! Please see: Most of southern BC, southern nova Scotia, southern western Canada near the great lakes, etc. Again, this depends on your definition of "warm" but given that I have defined these areas as warm, they are warm for the purposes of this discussion.
2. I should clarify that I mean gourd-like plants. Pumpkins, squash, etc. Good call.

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Alphaville
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Alphaville »

red cabbage: hardy, nutritious, long season, preserves well salted/fermented. my choice “green” (purple?) for the money, above all the rest. makes colewslaw in summer for you fried fish, great braised with your duck in winter.

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Alphaville
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Alphaville »

Lanerdros wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Utility details to come later.
not sure of your planned location, but make sure you’re within sight of a microwave tower or you’ll be stuck with pricey, ridiculous, laggy satellite internet.

yes, satellite works where nothing else does, but installation and monthly installments are astronomical vs. options below the stratosphere. i missed out on wimax due to house placement... version 2.0 if ever built will face the tower.

i love the internet more than country life so it was a big factor in leaving the homestead :lol:

sky
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by sky »

Will you be living with or without a vehicle?

sky
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by sky »

One concern is that you will have all your money in land. Farming and gardening is a risky business due to wind, too much rain, not enough rain, insects, animals, bacteria, fungus, etc. It can also require investment in irrigation, soil amendments, greenhouses, equipment.

I think it is a good idea to start something like this, especially when you are young. The difficulty is getting enough capital together to buy the land.

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Alphaville
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Alphaville »

sky wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:23 pm

I think it is a good idea to start something like this, especially when you are young. The difficulty is getting enough capital together to buy the land.
great point. and on that note, 20 acres is a lot.

with intensive gardening, 1-2 acres should be plenty

Lanerdros
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Lanerdros »

sky wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:23 pm
One concern is that you will have all your money in land. Farming and gardening is a risky business due to wind, too much rain, not enough rain, insects, animals, bacteria, fungus, etc. It can also require investment in irrigation, soil amendments, greenhouses, equipment.

I think it is a good idea to start something like this, especially when you are young. The difficulty is getting enough capital together to buy the land.
Yeah, this is why we would have the portfolio as well, to cover expenses. Not all, just a significant portion.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Hey, cool to see another 20 year old on here! From what I've seen most folks here are a bit older.

I was recently going for nursing but am considering switching track now. You can read all about it in my journal XD. I don't have any practical advice for your homestead, but I wish you the best of luck!

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Kriegsspiel »

RoamingFrancis wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:39 pm
Hey, cool to see another 20 year old on here! From what I've seen most folks here are a bit older.
They're all asleep already; you can call them old fucks.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Oof, didn't mean to imply that I disliked older people. Just happy to see other younger people doing ERE stuff too. It seems to me that a lot of people here come from established careers and high income streams - I think the dynamic changes if you're trying to start off your life by adhering to mininmalism/ERE principles/whatever you want to call it.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by classical_Liberal »

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:49 pm
They're all asleep already; you can call them old fucks.
Im old and still awake!

@kriegsspiel
It's really good to see you posting again. Hope all is well.

horsewoman
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by horsewoman »

A few things come to mind as someone who bought an old, run-down farm almost 20 years ago in southern Germany. We have been both raised in middle class urban rural areas (no homestading experience), but my husband works in a vegetable nursery as a "day job". I knew nothing about homesteading at all, so we had a steep learning curve.

- We had dreams of becoming "self-sufficient", in terms of food, as well when we started. It did not work out at all, the short growing season in Germany makes this a real hard endeavor. I believe this is equally the case in Canada. Even though my husband is a pro when it comes to grow vegetables we often have crop failures or I made mistakes with preserving, costing us whole harvests at times. Of course, we learn from our mistakes, but there seems to be an endless supply of mistakes to make, no matter how smart you are or how good your plans are. Growing things is so much dependent on local conditions, that failing your way to success is the most likely way for everyone. About everyone I came in contact with who went this route did not estimate correctly how hard it is to grow all your food. It is not only a matter of not being afraid of hard work, but there are simply so many things to do and to learn, that it takes ages to get good at it all. So plan for more time and more money spend until this is running somewhat smoothly.

- building a house (or completely renovating a very old one, like in our case) without hiring professionals takes a lot of work and hours, you will not have this time available to grow food. We totally underestimated how involved a project it would be to do this only with some help from friends and family. It took us 7 years to have a somewhat comfortable living conditions for humans and animals on our farm. Early on we gave up our dreams of self-sufficiency and built a boarding horse operation on our farm to make us some additional money, which did drag things out - but I suppose building up the systems for food production is equally time-consuming.
Just so you know, take your estimation of how long anything will take and make it double for how long it will really take. I often sat down after a long day of work and cried like a baby because we were so in over our heads with the farm. But still, I'd do it all again, even with hindsight :) Just be compassionate to yourself and build in enough slack. Your health and your relationship will thank you for it.

- chickens are pretty easy to raise and keep in Germany, but I suppose in Canada you will need a lot of fencing to protect them from predators. Fencing is expensive and high in maintenance, so I'd recommend a small flock for eggs and the occasional soup hen, and redundant roosters for meat. A flock of 5-10 birds is manageable for the ground if they have some room or can be switched around, and you have plenty of eggs, some meat and a great kitchen scrap disposal. Plus, chicken are hilarious, I could watch them all the time. Downsides: you need to bring them warm water every day when it's frozen outside, and in our climate, chicken attract rats. There is always food and grain on the ground with chicken, and rats seems to like this situation.

- It is pretty easy to be self-sufficient when it comes to heating, if you have a tractor! We heat our house entirely with our own wood, which is hard work but very cheap. I would not want to lug the wood around without machinery, however. We have a winch and a powerful wood splitter, plus a front loading tractor with a "tweezer" attachment to transport lumber. You certainly don't need all that stuff, but again, block out a lot of time for making fire wood. Like with everything, one develops systems to get it done faster, but this takes time.

- Solar panels are the best thing ever!

A few resources you might want to check out:

The Fouch familiy seems to have done something similar to what you want to do:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm28mg ... 1eyqhbivfg

The Frugalwoods are pretty posh homesteaders, but Mrs. Frugalwoods has a great way of explaining the whys and hows.
They also use their own wood for heating, and explain their systems in detail. Our operation is pretty similar, only on a larger scale since we use up a lot more of wood - I'm really intrigued by their wood stove!
https://www.frugalwoods.com/

For homesteading farming techniques watch Richard Perkins. His videos are geared towards building a working farm, but I have learned a lot by watching his videos even for our small-scale gardens. I like his nerdy approach to farming!
https://www.youtube.com/user/mrintegralpermanence

So while homesteading can surely be "cheap" after a while, the price you pay is high in other areas. You don't need to be FI (like the Frugalwoods) to start a homestead, but upfront it is a good thing to have some money on the side to "buy slack" until you have skills to build slack. We could never have done it without my husbands parents, who were always ready to bail us out when things went south (as they invariably will). We did not often avail ourselves of their help, but knowing that someone would help us in case of catastrophe was very reassuring. One cannot imagine the strain it can have on a relationship when you are doing things you are bad at all day long, combined with living in very primitive circumstances with no way of escaping even for short times (no money and animals to care for 24/7). Tempers often were very short, and lots of mistakes were made.
This sounds gloomy and I know what you mean when people say "it is a lot of work!" - no shit, Sherlock! What you cannot know beforehand is not only how hard it is physically but psychologically to run such an operation. A financial safety net was very important to my mental health, so I would recommend not spending all your money on buying the land. The "cheap" part comes when all your systems are running, which will take several years. Good luck to you! :)
Last edited by horsewoman on Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by Kriegsspiel »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:33 am
Im old and still awake!
Don't let him fool you, Francis, he's up to take a leak or grab a hard candy. The Ancient Ones are quite wily.

saving-10-years
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by saving-10-years »

We looked into setting up a self-sufficient smallholding when we moved here and learned a lot - mainly not to go into livestock apart from sheep.

I spin and weave and dye but would caution that sheep are flock animals so consider having more than one. Exception might be a hand raised sheep that thinks its a human but if you go that route expect other types of problems with your pet.
Cautionary note re small flocks of livestock. Consider whether the costs of ownership (e.g. medicines and specialist equipment) are based on assumptions that you have several animals to share costs across. Things like worming medications (say) should ideally be shared, so look for places with people who have animals also so you can share care/costs of things like this if possible. Its a sign if people are keeping sheep somewhere that you also can do this. Some equipment can be replaced with inexpensive hand equipment but again a community link can help. We can shear sheep using hand shears but it a) it won't be pretty and b) be slow and frustrating for animal and us. So our (currently) 3 sheep get run with our neighbours flock for shearing. Electric shears and experienced shearer and its only a maginal cost.
Goats require strong fences or tethering as they are intelligent escapees but are good company and easier to handle than cows. (My sister kept goats and we would if we had been able to be at home sufficiently to cope with milkings or hand neighbours to share this with).
Consider bartering for things like milk/beef rather than keeping cows. Or is powdered milk an option?
With a saw mill you will have a thing to barter (mill use) of products of the mill to barter?
If you have not read Amy Dacyczyn The Tightwad Gazette she mentions powdered milk a lot (we don't do powdered milk in the UK much).

Highly recommend @halfmoon' journal on here should give you some idea of what you may be in for.
Have fun and good luck.

take2
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Re: Homesteading for the bare minimum of expenses

Post by take2 »

+1 for @halfmoon’s journal, if only because that it’s a fascinating and captivating read.

Shearing sheep is a skill in itself - my parents have a small flock in Portugal and they pay €5/sheep a couple of times a year. The guy does it in a few minutes quickly and well, vs when we tried it and the poor animal was miserable and looked even more miserable. Not saying you can’t do it, but it’s not a skill learned in a day and requires some specialised equipment to do it well/fast.

@saving-10-years how long does it take you to spin/dye/weave the wool? How do you wash it prior to working it? We tried it once but the effort and end result didn’t make any financial sense vs. purchasing spools, or for that matter even clothes. Both of those are very cheap here, though perhaps not the case for the OP in Canada.

I guess my point with the above for the OP is to perhaps better identify what it is you want to do vs. what you’ll inevitably outsource. It’s great aspiration to be fully self-sufficient but things like clothes (which don’t really need to be replenished often) are likely better outsourced.

Suspect you’ll need some sort of greenhouse structure as well?

For the well do you know how deep the water is? Here in PT we have a 150m hole drilled into rock to get water which can’t be operated manually. It runs on electric pumps which are fixed to solar panels, but could have backup pumps running on an alternative fuel source if needed. My great grandfather had an old well that was considerably less deep but the quality and quantity of the water is suspect. Perhaps not an issue for you but that’s an item you need to get right from the start.

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