COVID-19: Unwinding the Lockdown and Long Term Epidemic

[Campitor]

There’s also a good deal of land use allocation that could be altered as necessary. State lines don’t matter nearly as much as your local watershed. If you don’t know how to plant potatoes, time to get learning.

The have enough land to grow crops if allowed to do so by the denizens of CHAZ and the local government; the gov still hasn't officially deeded the CHAZ zone to CHAZ occupiers. But does CHAZ have the internal support to convert that land to food production and are they patient enough and disciplined enough to live off the crops that grow within CHAZ?

And how will they accumulate capital to pay for the goods and services that can only be procured from non-CHAZ zones? Will Verizon, Mint, T-Mobile, etc, accept payment in potatoes? What happens when the CHAZ electric bill has to be paid? How will they buy gas? How will CHAZ collect taxes? Do they have trash collection and storage in CHAZ or do they expected the unionized garbage collectors to work for free too? How about plumbers and plumbing supplies and HVAC techs? I think CHAZ will fall apart on its own unless removed via police action first.

[Jason]

This topic is so loaded it's dangerous to comment on. But to run away from an abusive home only to write back demanding a bigger allowance not only perpetuates the cycle of dependence but creates a relationship that cannot be satiated. Economic reparations demanded as compensation for moral atrocity? Even if it wasn't impossible it wouldn't work.

[7Wannabe5]

@Campitor:

Oh, I wasn’t referring to CHAZ situation, more on theme of“This Civilization is Finished” in general. I predict growing list of stuff we can’t afford and simultaneously can’t not afford, quite logically leading to disintegration of “we.”

[nomadscientist]

Unlike the exponentially spreading riots in major cities, CHAZ doesn't materially matter. It's a PR play for both sides. Communism doesn't actually work, so the longer it lasts the worse it will look. On the other hand, the media will disguise this as much as possible and its continued existence gives its supporters credibility. Not clear what the play is here. The much bigger issue for Trump is every corporation in the "free world" simultaneously beginning to campaign against him.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@nomadscientist

Speaking of corporations, you must have missed, at a minimum, Chik-Fil-A.

I do not think in a crashing economy that most corporations are actively working to increase the likelihood of a higher corporate tax rate.

Donating $100 million to the monolith of “black people” and other such virtue signaling (when share prices are at peak valuations) is a lot less painful than a big tax bill.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I lament both the chilling effect that results from [fear of] mob behavior, as well as the fact that we condone internet mob justice so long as it’s for a good cause.

This topic is so loaded it's dangerous to comment on.

Matt Taibbi: Democrats Have Abandoned Civil Liberties

Making sure I become FI is important because I have no interest in being obligated to work under censorship ever again. Nothing personal against the semi-ERE folk but being able to raise my middle fingers is too important to me. I have had it with this Newspeak bullshit.

[nomadscientist]

@nomadscientist

Speaking of corporations, you must have missed, at a minimum, Chik-Fil-A.

I do not think in a crashing economy that most corporations are actively working to increase the likelihood of a higher corporate tax rate.

I've never believed corporations have much agency, because force beats money every time. They are curling up in a ball and doing whatever is necessary to not be hurt.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Oh no, those poor corporations receiving a never ending string of bailouts!

[Mister Imperceptible]

Anonymous Berkeley Professor Shreds BLM Injustice Narrative

It shouldn't affect the strength of my argument above, but for the record, I write as a person of color.

I personally don't dare speak out against the BLM narrative, and with this barrage of alleged unity being mass-produced by the administration, tenured professoriat, the UC administration, corporate America, and the media, the punishment for dissent is a clear danger at a time of widespread economic vulnerability. I am certain that if my name were attached to this email, I would lose my job and all future jobs, even though I believe in and can justify every word I type.

The ever-present soft bigotry of low expectations and the permanent claim that the solutions to the plight of my people rest exclusively on the goodwill of whites rather than on our own hard work is psychologically devastating.

I do not support the Party co-opting my race, as Biden recently did.

We are the useful idiots of the wealthiest classes.

[nomadscientist]

Oh no, those poor corporations receiving a never ending string of bailouts!

Even corporations in other countries are doing this.

I received an email from a hotel in the middle of nowhere I stayed at two years ago telling me to support Black Lives Matter.

[Seppia]

Anonymous Berkeley Professor Shreds BLM Injustice Narrative

I would put the credibility of this at about zero kelvin level.

To all of you thinking/suggesting the fabric of society is gone and we will soon live in a mad max scenario I'd say, look over the ocean here in Europe.
Things are bad put pretty cool overall.

America is in a tough and strange moment, but I would think if Trump loses in November things may go back to normal fast.
When there's tension, a leader whose main action is fanning the flames incessantly is the worst that can happen.
I'm hopeful that when even the military starts calling him out in numbers (I found the Mattis letter to be incredibly damning), enough republicans will find the fortitude to vote across the pond or at least stay home.

[Jason]

America is in a tough and strange moment, but I would think if Trump loses in November things may go back to normal fast.
When there's tension, a leader whose main action is fanning the flames incessantly is the worst that can happen.

Speaking for myself, I fear just as many things if Trump is not re-elected as if he were.

[IlliniDave]

Making sure I become FI is important because I have no interest in being obligated to work under censorship ever again. Nothing personal against the semi-ERE folk but being able to raise my middle fingers is too important to me. I have had it with this Newspeak bullshit.

I didn't check out the link. And I became FI independent of present events. But this statement resonates with me. The flowdown from my semi-new corporate overlords over the last week has been particularly bothersome. Effectively attempting to mandate how we vote and making it clear that termination is the prescription for the wrong political views. I know some of it is probably simple CYA--cowardly genuflecting before the mob in hope the mob will not turn on them and take them out. Give me a good book or put me in front of a good movie and I'm both willing and able to suspend disbelief. But I can't spend my life that way.

There's an irony in all this. My employer now has a goal to transition at least 50% of the workforce to permanent work-from-home status. That plus my post-merger employer having a largish facility in my hometown means I could probably wiggle around and get a work-from-home gig that I could maintain from the hideout part of the year (if I were willing to hook the cabin to the grid). Five years ago I may have leapt at the chance. But the combination of now being more robustly FI and the not-so-vaguely Orwellian dystopia that's recasting the world means I'll be checking the opt-out box.

[IlliniDave]

Speaking for myself, I fear just as many things if Trump is not re-elected as if he were.

I agree. If Trump loses to Biden I believe the lunacy will accelerate as it will be taken as a validation/mandate by the radicals. Maybe if a new candidate were to appear and win that could be averted. If Trump were to win at least much of the compulsion for destruction would continue to be directed at him rather than directed at the nation itself.

[Jason]

"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism." Ronald Reagan

"Silence is violence" IMHO is commensurate to totalitarian government forced confessional tactics. The ideal to which we all must (literally) bend the knee. You want to protest, I'm down. March all day if it flips your burger. But this is Hannah Arendt in reverse. The anti-government forces are becoming tyrannical in an all encompassing adherence to their version of reality. It's a hermeneutical movement in the guise of a political movement.

[7Wannabe5]

I think the uniform teaching of anti-bullying policy across the school systems may be somewhat to blame. The irony is that the very best, most liberal/affluent school systems have already moved past such policies towards allowing kids the freedom towards growth of working through some conflicts themselves. OTOH, in the very worst extremely needy, underfunded school districts enforcement of anti-bullying policy is a fantasy never to be fulfilled.

[Mister Imperceptible]

The problem with thinking that voting out Trump (or the establishment Democrats kneecapping Bernie Sanders) will make everything go back to normal, is that none of the reasons for their being popular is resolved.

What was once a country that had some idea of fair play has now become a fully corrupt shadow banking oligarchy. Wall Street has gotten $3T in bailout money and what are the BLM geniuses doing? Chopping off the head of Christopher Columbus statues.

The Orwellian dystopia is going to get worse because the ignorant masses cannot be bothered to understand the source of their poverty. It’s easier to get wrapped up in cultural Marxist memeplex than it is to do a little bit of reading.

As Social Security and the pensions go bankrupt, I am sure everyone will thoughtfully dissect the causes and make changes instead of doubling down on the insanity that has not worked and shriek at everyone who disagrees with them./s

Remember that as long as everyone is shrieking about about white/black, straight/gay, abortion rights and who is going to pay for the sex change operations, the oligarchy just drains you dry while you sit there and do nothing.




Lawrence Reed on modern parallels to the fall of Rome

[Jason]

It's a conflation of many factors. But one factor that this movement appears to be completely devoid of is self/cultural reflection. And when that factor is non-existent, forgiveness is off the table. And without forgiveness, there will be no rapprochement. If a protest movement turns into one, long drawn out revenge fantasy, it will never be appeased. When there are no specific demands, but just a wailing against the ineradicable evil aspects of human nature, the only solution is to burn everything to the ground. This has the makings of a French Revolution. Minus the Robespierre. For the size and scope of this movement, I find it very telling that not one single spokesperson has risen to name recognition. No one wants to articulate an agenda. No one wants to lead. It's a faceless mob.

And to take it a step further, it's not even acceptance for who they are, but for who they tell you they are. So no one is allowed to raise the idea that we may have different views of human nature. So what does that mean? An infinite possibility of identity which means no identity. And any disagreement with any identity is relegated to hate speech. Anti-authoritarianism becomes authoritarianism. Tolerance become intolerance. The philosophic underpinnings of this movement are ultimately so irrational that it cannot sustain itself. Hopefully, we'll still have a recognizable system of government before it reaches that point.

[jacob]

Remember that as long as everyone is shrieking about about white/black, straight/gay, abortion rights and who is going to pay for the sex change operations, the oligarchy just drains you dry while you sit there and do nothing.

Certainly, but isn't professional politicians representing a corporate oligarchy effectively what we have as a governing system. Historically, the US is a capitalist democracy, that is, optimized so that money talks---not a social democracy, optimized for people's talk.

Once upon a time when trying to explain "how it is all economics, dude..." I was informed that 'some people' care more about other things than economics. That was a light bulb moment for me and I stopped assuming that being economically better off was or should be the default goal of everybody. What appeared irrational in my lens could be perfectly rational in a lens that didn't optimize for "standard of living" (as measured by income and spending). One can cynically speak of useful idiots and the practice of adopting policies that are tangential to the bottom line of the political donors, lobbyists, corporations, etc. For example, on the right-side, people will sacrifice economically for rights associated with guns, religion, abortion, and immigrants. On the left-side, people will sacrifice economically for rights associated with identity politics. Yet, my conversation above showed that some people make this sacrifice deliberately. While useful, they aren't necessarily idiots for not trying to "win or not lose at money"

From the perspective of the Demopublican (upperish) middle class, a "return to normal" just means money will be the #1 lens again (and politicians can squabble over who gets it and who pays it) while the cultural special interest will fade. IOW, the narrative will no longer be driven from the cultural wings. This was essentially the question resolved by the D-Primaries; whether to oppose Trump's right-wing culture war with a corresponding left-wing culture war in the form of Bernie, or whether to run with a centist candidate which turned out to be Biden but in practice could have been almost any one of the other professional politicians. (They just strategically coalesced around Biden.)

And sure, making money the preferred lens once again doesn't solve the economic problems that led to the election of Trump or perhaps a future populist on the left. It just kicks the can down the road. Seeing as this discussion is not happening in the virus thread, a (brief four year) return to normal might be thought of as a lockdown of the culture wars that have been fanned incessantly over the past four years. It might only delay the economic problems, but at least it prevents mental overload from the cultural differences. (The counterargument being that this is a prosperous middle class attitude that ignores the suffering and therefore is the reason why the conflict is happening in the first place and why the fire should be stoked even harder to create the sort of middle class overload that would create 'real change'.)

My attitude is based on the understanding/assumption that politics and culture is a very complex system. Change of complex system is best done in a way that is reversible and reversibility is only possible by making small changes at a single point at a time. I don't believe in "burning the whole thing down" because I'm old enough to know how hard it is to build complex systems. Also, I have something to lose and if I didn't I might think differently.

[7Wannabe5]

Kegan might explain it as a movement of mostly Level 3 (social group identity) thinkers chanting bad or “pretender” Level 5 (post-modern)rhetoric. So, I can understand the desire by some to blame the post-modernists, but a true post-modernist would just chuckle and shake head and think “Oh, sweet child...” listening to youthful radical stating that “defund the police” really means “take a break in which we might imagine alternatives.”