wolf's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Jin+Guice
Posts: 639
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by Jin+Guice »

Thanks for your thoughtful writing wolf. I'm at a similar point to you in my progression towards being a renaissance man and also in my thoughts on investment. You're writing and thinking is much clearer than my own thoughts and it's very helpful for me personally to read about someone else attempting the same journey.

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

Regarding my investment strategy and portfolio asset allocation:

I started with a passive investment strategy based on 100% index funds [of which iShares had 70%. (crazy in retrospective!)]

After much reviewing and redesigning I created a active/passive investment strategy.
It consists of 50% passive index funds (ishares has 30% of the total portfolio) and 50% actively managed stocks.

The underlying asset allocation is roughly the same with large/small caps of developed/emerging markets, and real estates.

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Becoming a Renaissance Man #07

Post by wolf »

Becoming a Renaissance Man #07

Okay, I warn you upfront. It‘s maybe a bit too abstract and too odd for you, but it‘s a small part of my (INTJ/P) thinking. It happened in my daily focus sprint, of which I already did eight. In the context of form and function I had this idea to think of a object-oriented class of the Renaissance Man. Who don‘t know what I mean, it‘s computer programming paradim (Wikipedia)

What would a Renaissance Man look like if I had to design it as a class (in the computer programming context). The class of a Renaissance Man would have methods and attributes. I would organize all methods within modules. The same would be the case for all attributes. Well, let‘s try and brainstorm some modules of my web-of-goals.

INTELLECTUAL Module
methods: reading, listening, studying, learning, researching, designing, analyzing, brainstorming, speaking, writing, journaling, reviewing, master different kind of approaches
attributes: books read, IQ, degrees of multiple intelligences, books to be read in the expected years of a lifetime, number of subjects studied, degree of global awareness, degree of solving complex problems, degree of thinking critically, grades, scores

ECONOMICAL Module
methods: earning money, spending money, saving money, investing money, managing money, managing wealth, managing portfolio and investment strategy, controlling, making own taxes, cost-utility-analysis, usage rate, total expense rate of ownership, rent vs. Buy analysis
attributes: effectiveness, efficiency, Spending rate, Saving rate, Investment rate, Total Net Worth, WR, Tax Rate, number of years saved expressed in expenses,

Module with POLYMATHS SKILLS
methods: skill of flexibility, be creative, be flexible, be adaptable, master trait, using pareto principle, using S-curve learning, learning and studying, ultralearning, dive into subjects, intrinsic motivation, designing slack into web-of-goals, using nonlinear thinking
attributes: nonlinearity, margin of safety, degree of flexibility, creativity, adaptability, number of ultralearning techniques, degree of curiosity

SOCIAL Module
methods: small talking, bonding, getting to know people, discussing, collaborating, working together, helping, asking for help, give a gift, donate, deepen relationship, making arrangements, doing the first step, creating social networks, creating intrapersonal relationships, be empathetic, having an interest in the needs and wants of others, spot group dynamics
attributes: number of deep relationships, number of small talks, number of persons one trusts, number of introductions to others, Emotional Intelligence score, number of conflicts,

EMOTIONAL Module
methods: relaxing, define goals, derive actions from goals, distingish between feeling and thinking, feel the mood of oneself, know oneself, reflect own thoughts and feelings, define values, know basic needs, brainstorm what you want out of life, balance goals, think/speak/feel/do with integrity, be authentic
attributes: number of intrapersonal conflicts, degree of self control, number of revised decisions

Although I didn‘t brainstorm the other modules, this exercise taught me a good lessons. It was good to change perspective and view „things“ as methods (doing) and attributes (statics). I can relate methods to skills, habits, knowing of something, doing, etc. And I can relate attributes to key figures, scores, degree of something, measurements, etc. That differentiation helps me, well, to differentiate within the modules of my web-of-goals.

I hope I didn‘t confuse you very much. If so, I‘m sorry. But sometimes I‘d also like to post some draft/result of the ongoing (thinking) process. And apologies for any typos above.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11977
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: wolf's journal

Post by jacob »

It's perhaps interesting to note that Asian cultures tend to think in terms of methods (relations) whereas Western cultures think in terms of objects and attributes. I think this is important because Sapir-Whorf... probably more important than the existence/nonexistence of various language constructs. In the past 10+ years there has been a trend in western software to switch to methods instead describing things in terms of verbs rather than the traditional nouns.

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/do-i- ... o-you.html

Nuuka
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: wolf's journal

Post by Nuuka »

Wolf:
Just quick comments:
- for all classes, please consider adding attribute: expected time remaining till retirement
- consider adding more attributes that define values, such as ethics values, intro/extrovert, optimist/pessimist, threshold for anger, loyalty, courage, etc
- you could derive class structure where you have one (super)class with common atributes, then sublasses (as now your classes) inheriting from supeclass

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

Thanks for the information Jacob. I'm definately interested in languages and how they shape our thinking and experiencing of the world.

Just recently I watched "Arrival". If anybody here on this forum watches still movies ;-), I can highly recommend you this science-fiction movie.


[SPOILER ALERT]
It's a movie about the arrival of aliens. Humans try to communicate, but that is very difficult because those so called "heptapods" write in circles (google pic examples. So they write not linear, like us human, from beginning of a sentence to the end, word by word. They write nonlinear and think therefore nonlinear. Whereas we humans are used to experience time linear (past, present, future) process-oriented, the heptapods experience time nonlinear more goal-oriented. Therefore they know what has happened, happens and what will happen. The movie is emotional, philosophical and mentally challenging. It's great. So the assumption is, that one cannot change the future, therefore the heptapods know through their language and thinking the future. The main character, a woman, learns their language...saves the planet by preventing of destroying ourselves and the aliens. But more important she will know by the nonlinear language/thinking, that she and the other main character will have a baby together. But their child wild die. So there's the philosophical question: How does a human think/feel/behave, etc. if they would know the future, but cannot change it. The move is based on a short story from Ted Chiang called "Stories of Your Life and Others", which are very good rated and very sci-fi. He and many others talked about the making of. And listening to all this (nonlinear thinking, philosophical questions, etc.) was quite interesting.
[/SPOILER ALERT]

mooretrees
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: wolf's journal

Post by mooretrees »

@wolf I've been reading your Renaissance posts and it is really interesting (and sometimes too abstract for me) but I'm curious about how this work has changed anything for you. Is this your style to think deeply and make incremental changes? Has this process changed anything in your day to day life? Or am I thinking about it all wrong? I struggle with the idea of how to begin to become the female version of a Renaissance man. I've thought about it more related to learning skills and creating growth in my life. I'm curious where this deep thinking will take you.

I really loved Arrival, I've seen it twice and I wish there were more sci-fi movies of this caliber out there. I'll have to check out the author, thanks!

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

What I posted in my journal is only a fraction of what is going on in my journey of becoming a Renaissance Man. Writing about it is one of a few ways to "think" about. When I write I come up with new associations and thoughts. When I write, my brain has to process thoughts. Therefore, yes it's part of my style to think deeply and make incremental changes. What has really helped so far is, that I defined those modules of my web-of-goals. I became much more aware of topics and where they refer to. Whenever I come up with new ideas I can connect them with the modules of my web-of-goals. On the surface there has only changed a few things in my day to day life. One change was significant though. I established successfully a new habit. Everyday I start my morning with writing a focus sprint about BARM (becoming a renaissance man). It's one page long (on the computer written). After that I brainstorm 20 ideas to that topics. The topics vary from day to day. Sometimes I write about a more abstract topic, such as "Can a Renaissance Man function with a full-time job?". Other times I write about recent experiences and how they could be connected to the life of a Renaissance Man. I would also say, that I have a stronger intrinsic motivation to do things, which are related to topics of the modules of the web-of-goal of the Renaissance Man. I am much more aware of all the diversity of things going on in my life. My mindset changes from being focused on economical topics (e.g. saving, spending, investing, …) to all other topics (modules) as well.
I recently read „The Renaissance Soul“ by Margaret Lobenstine which 7wannabe5 spoke about. And that booked helped me even more to understand a possible life(style) of a Renaissance Man/Soul. The most important thing of the book is about „focal points“. It basically says that you should choose three to five topics/projects/interests… You could change those every time you want. It helps you to focus your energy/time/… to those three to five … in your life. In contrast to that it could be possible that you don‘t make any changes at all because you focus on everything and progress in nothing. I think you could like that book @ mooretree.
What else? Well, I started to shower cold in the morning. Although that is no special thing per se, it is based in the physiological module of my web-of-goal and as I said before I have a stronger intrinsic motivation to try things.
In addition to all that, I accepted a project at work which is only indirectly connected to my job role. If I thought as a specialist I would have rejected the project offer, but with the mindset of a Renaissance Man I accepted it. My job at work is nowadays more like a so-called „umbrella job“ (term from „The Renaissance Soul“). I would say I work as a generalist within a specialist culture. I fulfill several different job roles, such as project manager, consultant, developer, architect, coordinator, support engineer, like being a jack-of-all-trades in the eyes of my boss and team lead.
@mooretree: If you want to become a Renaissance Woman, I would probably recommend you doing it your own way. Do whatever helps you to learn, experiment, try, apply, progress and brainstorm. If you have not had a look at „The Renaissance Soul“, check it out. Look for role models.

mooretrees
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: wolf's journal

Post by mooretrees »

Cool to read your process @wolf. I've created a limited web of goals, but it hasn't been part of my daily thought process. So it is interesting to hear how you connect your writing and the different modules and then make small or big choices with those in mind. For me, I doubt I'll spend so much time writing as you, but I am in the mode of 'copying' at this stage. So it is useful to hear about the mechanics of the process. While I will have different modules, I've been floundering on how to implement any significant focus on my web of goals. This is really helpful, so thanks!

I'll check out that book, I totally need to work on focus! Thanks so much!

Sabaka
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:41 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by Sabaka »

Full respect for being able to apply these systems to your own life Wolf! Do you find that sometimes the need to apply systems tires you? For me, whenever I begin to think about or apply systems, it just begins to tire me out a little.

Keep on cracking on!!

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

Thank you Sabaka! I actually don‘t really feel a need to apply systems, it comes naturally to me. So, no, it doesn‘t tire me. Creating a system just happens, whenever I work at something seriously. And it‘s both ways: bottom-to-top and top-to-bottom. I do know that there are many other ways to do and plan for things, but creating a system is the normal way to do it (for me). It‘s like with building a house. You have to have a vision. Then I become the architect. And only after a technical plan and drawings I „start building“. Although I find it a good way to do things personally, sometimes I question myself why I can‘t just start trying something without thinking first. But then I remember my lessons learned from previous experiences and say to myself: Think first, then act. Funny thing is, that my system (modules of my web-of-goals) consists also of more sensitive/emotional/feeling topics (e.g. social and emotional modules). I plan for those topics on purpose, but rationally with thinking.

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

2019 review and 2020 outlook

Post by wolf »

Year end financials 2019
Expenses = 5522€ (without health insurance)
Savings Rate = 88%
Withdrawal Rate = 2.26%
Change of FI money compared to Jan 1 2018 = +56k€ (+30%)
long-term* goal of 420k€ FI money = 58%
*btw. 2024 to 2028

detailed expenses in categories:
  • housing, internet, etc.: 52%
  • transportation: 9%
  • food, health, personal consumption, etc: 21%
  • ULAL/BARM: 6% (ultimate life‘s adventure list, becoming a renaissance man)
  • other (gifts, „wants“, etc.): 12%
long-term charts of financial progress
Image
* SR 2012 was 0%, because I spend everything traveling during a sabbatical

Image
*I read about ERE in April 2016

Image
*without any health insurance and without any margin of safety, therefore (and because work is not so bad) I continue working

Year 2019 review

BARM (becoming a Renaissance Man)
I started a personal project called „becoming a Renaissance Man“. It is based on the ERE ideal and polymath ideal. I started by defining several modules, as you can see when you read my journal posts about it. Since then I wrote many focus sprints about becoming a Renaissance man. It is a combination of brainstorming, conceptualizing, thinking out loud, creating ideas, etc. Many times I thought of processes and goals. And that was inspiring. So I don‘t think of a „web of goals“ anymore. I call it „web of goals and processes“, because it consists all of my self-defined modules with their habits, routines, actions, projects, etc.

Started with two items on my ULAL (ultimate life‘s adventure list)
First one is pc gaming. I wanted to play some pc games for a few months now. Therefore I bought myself a used pc and a new gpu. I installed Manjaro Linux and Steam. When games were on sale, I bought them. It cost me less than 250€ to build a gaming pc with a gpu and some games. So far I bought and played Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Civilizations 5, which I love to play.
Second item from my ULAL is experiencing city life. Honestly I must say that I neglected the opportunities of the city in the recent years, although they are easily accessible. But I was focused on other things. Now I bought myself a subscription of the local public transportation, in order to have easy access to the city whenever I want to. That project is limited till November this year. Then I think I will cancel that subscription again. Till then, I experience city life. Due to that my expense are going to increase for the upcoming 11 months at least.

Shifting focus from total height of investment towards passive income cash flow
In the second half of the year I also started to shift my focus from total height of investments toward the cash flow, including my passive income of dividends and bond yields. So far, I stored most of my money in cash. I only invested in corporate and government bonds some years ago. But cash is generating not much income in the ZIRP environment of the EURO-Europe. I use only 57% of my FI money to generate a passive income. My goal is to increase that passive income, until my passive income of investments exceeds my expenses.

Started DCA investing into equities
I knew that I had to start investing in equities. By reviewing some papers on the internet, I figured out that investing a lump sum with the currently overvalued stock market includes a high downside risk. Therefore I started investing into equities by using the dollar cost averaging strategy. Since a few month I have been investing roughly 7k€ per month into the stock market.

Slow FI
I stumbled over the concept of „slow FI“. Originally it means that one can/should become FI with a SR of 30% to 50%. The SR is higher than the average household savings rate and it is slower than the SR of a usual FIRE approach. When I read about „slow FI“ I instantly thought of some aspects of a semi-RE lifestyle. I found a blog post about it (see link below), that resonated with me. It is about the diminishing returns in enjoyment of life due to increasing to extreme SR levels. I have a very high SR and I honestly start feeling the diminishing returns of further increasing my SR level. So I thought about the concept and its aspects. As a result I think I will be also ok with a SR that is slightly lower than I had in 2019. I aim for a SR between 70% to 85% in the upcoming years. That is 100% compatible with deliberately coasting to FI (DC2FI), which I officially started this year.
https://cityfrugal.com/marginal-utility ... uit-of-fi/

new books I read
Design your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
12 Rules for Life by Jordan B. Peterson
Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari
Please Understand Me by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates
Lost Connections by Johann Hari
Atomic Habits by James Clears
Ultralearning by Scott Young
The Renaissance Soul by Margaret Lobenstine
Personal Village by Marvin Thomas
How Google Works by Eric Schmidt and Jonathan Rosenberg
In Over Our Heads by Robert Kegan

books I re-read
Principles by Ray Dalio
Quiet by Susan Cain
To Have or To Be by Erich Fromm
Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker
Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
Chop Wood Carry Water by Joshua Medcalf

Work
I got a pay raise of about 5%, which increases of another 5% in the next year. And I am not affected by the ongoing job cuts. Although I work a full-time job, it felt like working part-time in 2019. Why, because of that:
  • regular 35 hours per week,
  • 2 full weeks off work,
  • 27 weeks with only 3 or 4 work days (due to vacation days and holidays)
  • 1 week of IT training in Berlin
  • worked from home on 99 days
  • worked 58 days less than 5 hours, due to flexible hours (I measure them as 0.5 work days)
So overall, I am pretty happy with my current job conditions.

I did four QURSOs (quarterly review, status and outlook)
(description of it see here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9636&start=100#p182931)
I measured my mental well-being, by using the Warwick-Edinburgh Mental Well-being Scale I had an average score of 82%.

Outlook on 2020
My spending is going to increase, due to „experiencing city life“, which consists the subscription to public transportation plus activities. In total I budget about extra 150€ p.month)

I started my withdrawal cash flow system which is a part of deliberately coasting to FI. In short it means, that I save/transfer 100% of my salary to my savings account and I then withdraw a certain amount of money each month. Although that doesn‘t increase/decrease any money in the system, it is shifting my focus towards a withdrawal based cash flow system, as I describe here viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9636&start=100#p188469

mid-term milestones
In the last year I started a personal challenge of „becoming financially independent in 5 years“ using Jacob‘s benchmark. That challenge started at a fictional zero net worth in April 2016 (when I first learnt of ERE) and is ending in March 2021. If you want to read more about it, have a look here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9636&start=120#p192270

Another mid-term milestone is about investing. I want to invest in total >= 168k€ into equities until October 2021. With that I want to increase the amount of passive income.

Thanks for reading and feedback is always appreciated.

fingeek
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 8:16 am
Location: South Wales

Re: 2019 review and 2020 outlook

Post by fingeek »

Great to hear the update, and is as much as I imagined - Super low expenses, and definitely-FIREable WR.

wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
Withdrawal Rate = 2.26%
long-term* goal of 420k€ FI money = 58%
*btw. 2024 to 2028
With a WR that's definitely within FI, why change the goalposts from 2024->2028? It sounds like maybe you should just declare yourself FI and perhaps no longer focus on increasing your NW?
wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
Many times I thought of processes and goals. And that was inspiring. So I don‘t think of a „web of goals“ anymore. I call it „web of goals and processes“, because it consists all of my self-defined modules with their habits, routines, actions, projects, etc.
I've started to notice this with me too - Probably "web of goals" is better written "web of systems/processes", as that better highlights that it's a constant feedback loop with no goals to completely solve for (Though I appreciate that goals as the graph nodes makes more sense than systems). For me, I'm focusing on moving from goals/doing mode, and into systems/being mode.
wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
Started DCA investing into equities
I knew that I had to start investing in equities. By reviewing some papers on the internet, I figured out that investing a lump sum with the currently overvalued stock market includes a high downside risk. Therefore I started investing into equities by using the dollar cost averaging strategy. Since a few month I have been investing roughly 7k€ per month into the stock market.
The prevailing wisdom is to just add money straight away and not DCA - "Time in the market beats timing the market". If you've decided to invest slower because you think you can read the market then that's fine of course (Though Lars Kroijer followers would contest this).
wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
Work
Although I work a full-time job, it felt like working part-time in 2019.
This is amazing - Nice job crafting! For me, it feels like this will be my continued focus in the coming year or two, to continue moving closer to part-time/more freedom.
wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
I started my withdrawal cash flow system which is a part of deliberately coasting to FI. In short it means, that I save/transfer 100% of my salary to my savings account and I then withdraw a certain amount of money each month. Although that doesn‘t increase/decrease any money in the system, it is shifting my focus towards a withdrawal based cash flow system, as I describe here viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9636&start=100#p188469
It will be interesting to see how this changes your mindset as then you can really truly test your investment income->expenses system. I started this almost two years ago (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9064&start=20#p162744), and it's given me so much confidence in proving to myself that I can live a basic trimmed-down life without a job. Mainly, I'll be interested to follow what you make of decoupling job income from the job itself, and see if you still find utility in the job, or if you start to think about doing other jobs with lower/no pay because they're more meaningful/have more utility. For me, one of the hardest things since changing my income mechanism is those "WTF am I doing this shit for" thoughts at work...
wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 am
In the last year I started a personal challenge of „becoming financially independent in 5 years“ using Jacob‘s benchmark.
Many people would declare you FI already :).

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

@fingeek
Thank you for the feedback.

Yes, if I define FI with a WR below 3%, then I could declare myself FI. I would prefer the term „runaway mode“ in my situation, though, because I am deliberately coasting to FI. For me FI means achieving an actual passive income that exceeds my actual expenses plus health care plus margin of safety plus a budget for extra hobbies/projects. With that definition of FI, I am not there yet.
@fingeek: what does FI means to you?

You do ask the right questions though. First and foremost, money is not the end game. It is just a means to an end (for me). I am in the middle of my working life with high income. My NW increase automatically because my expenses are very lower than my income very high. And I generate that income with work I really enjoy. But my mindset shifts slightly, as you maybe noticed. I started budget/spending for some items on my ULAL. And who knows what I want to do in a few years. Two years ago I set that goal of achieving 420k€ until 2024. As you noticed, I‘m more flexible now, because it would be also okay if I achieve it latest 2028. So overall I would say, that I stopped focusing on increasing my NW (slightly). Instead I started focusing on other things in life, e.g. BARM, ULAL.

I call it web of goals and processes because for me there are two operational modes in place and each of them has its own aspects (advantages/disadvantages). First approach would be goal-oriented. And second approach is process-oriented. For me personally a system is larger than that web of goals and processes. I like to make goals (milestones, deadlines, etc.) because it feels good to achieve them. And I like to build processes (habits, routines, etc.) because it provides some identity.

@fingeek: And regarding your „web of systems/processes“, how do structure it? What does it consist? What are the elements, etc?

I use DCA because I want to diversify time. I would regret buying a lump sum e.g. in DAX stocks now and see their value decrease heavily due to a recession. I just want to make sure that I will have minimal regrets (in the future). (minimal regret framework). My decision is based on this https://www.onefpa.org/journal/Pages/JA ... mance.aspx. It is an analysis about outperformance of lump sum vs. dca, depending on CAPE.

@fingeek: How many hours do you want to work part-time? Can you work from home? I would recommend job crafting for that, because as an introvert it feels great to work some days silently in a quiet environment.

Yeah, I am also quite curious how that withdrawal rate based cash flow system will influence my mindset. I‘ll let you know.

@fingeek: and thank you for the links to your journal. It was very interesting to read about your experiences you made during the time off work.

classical_Liberal
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

Great update!

With all the new years updates I'm seeing a couple of different patterns of people who are still working for money, at least part time. One pattern is people who are relatively satisfied with their work, and one in which they are not. I fall into the latter camp :shock: .

For those in the former, lofty FI goals of sub 3% are there, but on the back burner, with other life issues in the forefront. For the rest of us, we can barely wait to get to a 4-5% WR rate and pull the plug forever, or cut back substantially, damn the consequences! EDIT: or maybe busy just trying to find ways to get power through a few more years. Finding any kind of sustainable path to FI is a singular focus.

I think one project I have via this forum presently, is figuring out the difference between those who have a healthy relationship with their "work", and those who do not (like me). Is this all unchangeable personality traits, or are there things people like me can do to fall into better processes that make "work" more enjoyable? I suppose one can define work as paid or unpaid, for self or for others, and maybe a few other categories too. I wonder how these subcategories play a role in the self:work relationships in different personalities?

Much to think about, Happy New Year @wolf!

wolf
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: wolf's journal

Post by wolf »

@classical_liberal: Thank you and Happy New Year to you too!

Yes, I recognize that pattern too. People relatively satisfied with work and people who are not. Although one mustn't forget, that this is not a universal rule, like if I am relatively satisfied now with work I will be forever satisfied. It depends on the situation, job conditions, circumstances, personality type, expectations to work, needs to be satisfied (in/outside work), personal goals (like FI), beneficial aspects of a job, purpose, etc. There is much literature about it and many papers on the internet about it. There is also difference between work in general and a job.

Due to pursuing FI I became more confident to craft my job. That is one of the many positives aspects of pursuing FI. You could use it to improve your current situation with more confidence, e.g. in areas like work. I didn't accept negative aspects at work, so I improved what was possible.

@classical_liberal: If you do a survey about personalities and their relationship to work, I will definitely participate. :-)

ertyu
Posts: 600
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by ertyu »

Miserable as fuck, trying to find a way to hang on somehow - represent!

I was thinking about this, too, and for me, a lot of why I am not satisfied with work is that I can't really pace myself. To illustrate this, consider the difference between someone who works, idk, retail, or in a call center, or indeed as a nurse, I suppose teachers would fall here, too. When you need to do your job is determined by client need. You take calls when people call, and you have to stay on the phone until they terminate the call. Retail, e.g. if you're at a till, the pace of your work is set by people who come to pay. I suppose if you're on an assembly line it's the same. Programmers with tight and unreasonable deadlines imposed from outside, too. Whereas if one has any power to structure one's day and choose what tasks to perform when, one can take it slow for a day if one isn't feeling well or didn't sleep. One can do tasks in a way that fits their circadian rhythm. E.g. I am empathically not a morning person, while some people are. I think if someone else is pacing you and you're being treated like an automaton, burnout sets much faster and much more of your job is spent struggling to force yourself to work at times when you really, truly aren't up to it.

singvestor
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:48 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by singvestor »

Your saving rate and discipline are an inspiration. 88%, wow!

Jin+Guice
Posts: 639
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by Jin+Guice »

wolf wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:40 pm
Although one mustn't forget, that this is not a universal rule, like if I am relatively satisfied now with work I will be forever satisfied.
In moving from a specialist mindset towards a generalist one, I like to remind myself that "I am not my job." I was taught once you find THE right career, it lasts a lifetime as you climb the ladder in a upward and largely linear progression towards... ??? I like the idea that I can do one thing for a few years and then do another thing. It's been noted here that there are some career paths that take most of a humans working years to accomplish. However, the vast majority of skills to be gained from many careers are gained within a few years. I like the idea that I could become a relatively skilled specialist in many areas rather than a hyper skilled specialist in only one.




Are you below a 3% SWR for current expenses? Is that a new development? If it is, congrats! I know it's not your current goal, but I think that in some sense it's a goal that unites us all and it deserves a clink of the champagne glasses whenever someone crosses that threshold.
classical_Liberal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:00 pm
I think one project I have via this forum presently, is figuring out the difference between those who have a healthy relationship with their "work", and those who do not (like me). Is this all unchangeable personality traits, or are there things people like me can do to fall into better processes that make "work" more enjoyable? I suppose one can define work as paid or unpaid, for self or for others, and maybe a few other categories too. I wonder how these subcategories play a role in the self:work relationships in different personalities?
This is very interesting to me and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. It's become very clear to me that you and I approach this problem differently.
ertyu wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:58 am
I was thinking about this, too, and for me, a lot of why I am not satisfied with work is that I can't really pace myself.
There is an opposite problem to this where you control all of your own time but the lack of defined goals and deadlines makes it hard to get anything done. I think most would prefer to this position to the other extreme you describe, but it's still frustrating and you lose an external enemy to blame your problems on. Finding where you lie on the structure/ deadline vs. unstructured spectrum and building a system around that is important, especially once you FIRE.

classical_Liberal
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: wolf's journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:02 pm
This is very interesting to me and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. It's become very clear to me that you and I approach this problem differently.
I don't really have any solid thoughts on this, still trying to work it out (ha! "p"unny). My "hunch" is that it's very personality dependant. Also probably dependant on what someone's goals are in the short and medium term and whether or not the job is compatible with some type of personal purpose or meaning. I do like the term "relationship with work", because that's what I think best describes the issue.

I also wonder if folks like me, who have a hard time merging work and pleasure, are always going to be at a disadvantage in this realm. Back in the day it was called type-A personality. Work then pleasure. I'll be honest, I've never have I had a job I really like. I mean "like" in that I'd choose to do it over something else most days.

The best I can do to identify a model here is that every job has bad that goes with any good. Those who dislike work always end up feeling like we're just selling our time. It's much easier to do that if there is some combination of interesting or meaningful work, interesting or fun people, high pay, time/energy expenditure flexibility, and manageable levels of stress. In my life, most of my jobs have had one or two of these. The job I stayed at the longest, about 5 years, had three. Back then if you would have asked if I liked my job, I would have said "yes", but not in the context that I'd rather be there than doing something else most days. I just didn't realize not working most of the time was an option... Thanks for making me miserable ERE :roll:. My guess is that when someone finds the right combination of 3 or more of these factors to fit with both personality and goals, that's the sweet spot. Then someone's using time in way they like instead of selling it. In case you're curious, I'd say my present job has two of these things, but only one of them really aligns with my personality and goals
Jin+Guice wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:02 pm
There is an opposite problem to this where you control all of your own time but the lack of defined goals and deadlines makes it hard to get anything done. I think most would prefer to this position to the other extreme you describe, but it's still frustrating and you lose an external enemy to blame your problems on. Finding where you lie on the structure/ deadline vs. unstructured spectrum and building a system around that is important, especially once you FIRE.
This is extremely important and so often missed by the crowd who dislikes their job. I'm to the point in my time off where I neither want to go back to work, nor am I self motivated enough to find any other purpose. I knew the latter would become an issue, hence the goal of semi-ERE all along. I was under the false assumption that once I began to drift aimlessly, I'd have a strong desire to go back to work for a while to focus. Even though that's not the case, it doesn't mean that going back for awhile now is the wrong call. I just set up a contract starting the first week of February. I already see myself focusing more, planning things, etc. There is a sense of urgency to my time that wasn't there two days ago. I just wish I could maintain this sense of urgency without having the dread of an upcoming three months not controlling my time, doing tasks that are mostly unimportant to me. Maybe this is the best that a type-A like myself can hope for? or Maybe I can find work that gives me another point or two that actually corresponds with my personality and goals. IDK yet.

FYI to anyone interested. There is a similar conversation in @Basuragomi's Journal, I coaxed his thoughts out as he is another who seems to have a very good relationship with work.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10969&start=35

Edit: for a misplaced cut and paste.
Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply