Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
1taskaday
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 1taskaday » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:06 pm

I am not from US and have zero interest in politics but I really miss Dragline and Ego's wisdom on these forums.

They were always so interesting and supportive.

Such a pity...

CS
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by CS » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:10 pm

YAY @dragline!!! Thank you! The truth comes out. It is Plato's cave in here - and getting mansplained, and shouted down and rationalized away is not going to change it - it's just going to drive out people who are not completely in the cave.

I'm going to have to go and read the original article that started this, but my years on the forum tell me that every part of dragline's post is spot on. It's not stated here all that often because reasons @c40 posted, and frankly, there are better things to do than run into a brick f'ing wall all the time.

I feel bad for JFL because 1) his posts are thoughtful, respectful of all and frankly wonderful, and 2) he bends over backward to let people speak and gives them the benefit of the doubt. I would perhaps wish for less tolerance of some of the BS, but hey, I understand where he is coming from... and it's a benefit I've probably personally been given in the past.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:43 pm

Dragline wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:04 pm
Okay, now I'm just plain curious to see who even read the article. The article says
Also, like most spaces populated almost exclusively by male nerds, the FIRE community is both overtly and implicitly sexist.
Dragline is a part of the FIRE community, dragline fits the definition of a male nerd, and dragline is therefore overtly and implicitly sexist according to the article. It also slanders me, and every single other member of the forum who consider themselves part of the early retirement community as sexist as well.

On top of that, it states that we don't bathe, don't clean, live in shitholes, and leach off our women.

Is that REALLY what all the women on here believe? Lookin at you c&t. IIRC you even live with a male nerd, is HE sexist too? Is he an unclean unbathed leach who lives in a shithole? If some other woman called him all those things on the street would you not send some invective her way?

Scott 2
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Scott 2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:48 pm

Augustus wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:43 pm
IIRC you even live with a male nerd, is HE sexist too? Is he an unclean unbathed leach who lives in a shithole?
Hey, I'm not sexist!

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:17 pm

Scott 2 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:48 pm
Hey, I'm not sexist!
Amen brother, and if some crazy lady walking down the street started calling you a unclean unbathed sexist useless gold digging leach who lives off his woman I would call her a bitch, because that's what she would be. At least I think I would... you're employed right? Contributing? Copartners in life? I.e. not a useless douche bag?

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:59 pm

I don't actually know Jacob. I did read his book a long time ago, and I follow the forum, but I don't know him as a person. So he may personally be not sexist at all.

I do know more about MMM though, and of the things listed in the article - that he doesn't shower often, that he re-wears clothes, that he doesn't often clean, that he sometimes eats oil as a meal - those are all things I remember him saying in his posts. Actually, sometimes at the grocery store I joke I am going to eat MMM groceries and pretend I am only buying oil.

[Side note here - she says he says these things, and I agree he says these things! And I even do these things! I stretch out showers, I re-wear clothes, I don't wash my towel after every use! But I am not screaming that she is calling me a dirty gross unwashed whatever Augustus is saying, because that IS part of ERE - not wasting water and clothes and time do wash things that don't need to be washed. So that isn't 'hit piece' info on MMM - she is saying what he says. Which I also do, as part of ERE.]

Interestingly, there was a recent thread that featured MMM, and his intentional community. And there were a couple people who stated or joked he was only setting it up so he would have access to a bevy of young co-eds. I don't recall anyone saying - oh no, he is a good guy who wouldn't set up a whole community to get better access to younger women. In fact, is was kind of stated as a - yeah, probably!

So when in the article, she said things that Jacob said, with links to where he said them, I should... what? Insist he didn't? He doesn't care about dressing stylishly! I saw the documentary thing that features him. He doesn't dress stylishly! Who the heck cares?

As to the youtube, I checked the link where he posted it and his statement said "no comment" - and almost all the comments are saying women are horrible people, basically. Should I understand his 'no comment' to mean - I have very nuanced views on this where this is about society as a whole, and not a 'hit piece' on women, which every single one of the commentators took it as?

Now, again, I don't know him, and I don't know his whole life. And when I made my original comment, I didn't say anything about Jacob or MMM specifically. I said the feeling of the article matches the feeling I often get here. And many of the responses there have been - either with A) people saying deliberately sexist things, or B) straight out agreeing there is a problem, -- does not change my view that there isn't an issue with sexism. I still think there is an issue with sexism that makes certain groups, including this one - not welcoming to women.

I also think that some people are looking at what is being said, they are saying yes, there is an issue. I re-read the article, AGAIN, and no where did it say anyone is a "unclean unbathed [SIC] sexist gold digging leach [SIC]", but rather that ERE people may not to bathe or clean or do laundry at the same rate as other people, which is a true thing.

Do I care about this girl or her article, no. Do I think that this community can do better to make this a more welcoming space? Absolutely.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:26 pm

bad post
Last edited by Cats_and_tats on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:32 pm

It is interesting how on college campuses and in corporations one does not need to have intellectual substance behind their assertions. Add the title of “vice president” or “department manager” or “college professor” and all one needs to do is parrot the moral indignation of a mob and you can bully people into compliance or into leaving by whipping people into a frenzy against them. What is admirable about Dr. Fisker is that he has the humility to recognize that he does not know everything, and that he does not have the authoritative claim to moral authority. And so he does not cave to bullies or ban free speech. And yet there will be people writing hit pieces about him, making assumptions, and curating information to support a previously held and superficial belief. “Let’s quote people out of context to support my hit piece.” Intellectual frauds. It is perfectly understandable why one would opt to become a guru on a mountain. It is also perfectly understandable how someone used to leading mobs with torches to successfully silence dissent and perpetrate character assassination would have to retreat like a whipped dog with his tail between his legs when those with integrity who refuse to comply are not silenced or banned by the central authority, exposing the intellectual bankruptcy for all to see. If a frugal nerd who believes in classical liberalism is socially isolated in a consumerist culture where polarized politics reign supreme, and tries to give voice to his isolation amongst friends, these shallow hypocrites try to paint this as something in the same ballpark as racial bigotry. Talk about using a broad brush. And this was supposed to be someone everyone raves about? “Wise and supportive.” Hahaha, how droll. So typical of a lickspittle dependent on the education-brainwash system of the oligarchical state. I see the intellectual bankruptcy for what it is. I am not even remotely impressed. Go back to your safe space.

You know, when Jennypenny or 7w5 or Clarice or EdithKeeler or DutchGirl write something, I read it with wide puppy-dog eyes. We can have a conversation without resorting to neutered “progressive”-college-speak.
Last edited by Mister Imperceptible on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scott 2
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Scott 2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:35 pm

I looked at the article, it's click bait. The author was clever in weaving threads of truth through the more extreme statements.

I'll say the same thing here I told cats and tats IRL - arguing gender politics on the internet is a waste of time.

Peanut
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Peanut » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:40 pm

Side note @Augustus: Dude, my PSA to you is to NEVER use “bitch” or “retard” in any real-life public/private/work space. Like, in front of your daughter’s friend’s parents or whatever mixed company situation you find yourself in. Call it PC police or whatever you like, but you must realize you can get crucified for this nowadays. If you don’t you’re very out of touch and I say this as someone older than you who has ‘innocently’ used both terms in the past and cringes when I hear them now.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Peanut wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:40 pm
I was actually copying my wife. She uses bitch all the time. I suspect all these words have become much like the n word, where black people can say it but no one else can or they're racist, sexist, or ableist.

I think I heard a wooshing sound as that article went straight over cts head. Yes dear, they must have randomly been discussing bathing habits, cleanliness, gold digging men etc for no reason whatsoever in an article dedicated to decrying the evils of male nerds. Definitely not implying anything at all, just random introductory paragraphs with no relation to the rest of the article :lol: don't forget your SO is a sexist though, overtly and implicitly.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:44 pm

Augustus wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 pm
I was actually copying my wife. She uses bitch all the time. I suspect all these words have become much like the n word, where black people can say it but no one else can or they're racist, sexist, or ableist.
Did... Did you just respond to someone calmly saying that you might want to re-think your language by saying you are mad you aren't allowed to say the n-word? Yeah?? Okay, just checking. Absolutely for sure this is whole misunderstanding is my personal issue then.

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:09 am

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:44 pm
Did... Did you just respond ... by saying you are mad you aren't allowed to say the n-word? Yeah?? Okay, just checking.
His post didn't say or imply anything about him being mad he's not allowed to say the n-word.

Can you two stop trying to twist each-others words (or the content of that article) to win? There is no winning here. It seems like both of you are to the point where if/when the other says something useful, you will not recognize/understand/acknowledge/accept it.

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:22 am

If we want to continue the discussion started by that article, I'd suggest we discuss if there are things we can do to help improve the atmosphere of the forum.

I'm trying to say this without typing a lot, so, sorry if I lose you.

I don't think there is much benefit to (only) calling people out for 'bad behavior'. And I don't think that what needs to be done is to get posters to be more pc or acquiesce to different opinions. Often either of those things just result in debates, arguments, and resentment.

So.. then what? I don't really know. There are always root causes further back. I know of some things I think would help, but (to whatever extent I'm capable of) I'm not personally willing to do them often. I think a lot of the guys shitposting - younger ones** at least - would benefit from more understanding of and experience with the opposite sex (and in recognizing their role in how things are going and working on improving it in healthy ways). Certainly there are a lot of posters here who can share things that help with the understanding side. 7wb5 does this a ton. I learn a lot from JennyPenny's posts. I do think it is odd (for myself) to share a lot of that type of stuff on a personal finance forum. But,... idk...
Last edited by C40 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:33 am

I’m sorry for oversharing. I’m sorry to have caused headaches for Dr. Fisker and C40 and anyone else who has read my posts with the principle of charity. I have no one to talk to IRL. I can be a better Stoic.

I am not apologetic to the moral hypocrites who lob attacks from behind a velvet rope.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:44 am

I remember the first time I really read books on real significant money-saving, and how I felt surprised there was another way than how I grew up. I remember the first time I read The Frugal Gazette, or The Millionaire Next Door, or ERE, or the MMM blog posts. Now there are communities on the internet to talk about these things. And it's great, you get to share with others and learn and it's all good.

However. As a lady, I can say, my excitement at finding the forums did not match my excitement at finding the books. In the past few years I have decided several times to make a user to talk about something or ask a question, and before getting set up did a careful read-through of the top posts again just to be sure, and then noped my way back out. I cannot be the only girl who has done this. Communities suffer when they cannot have diversity.

When we talked about the women who post regularly, I think there were, what 5 names, 6? Compared to how many men? Should it be the job of those 6 ladies to teach all the men that when they blog about how all women all gold-diggers and only care about x, y, z, and why women who don't look good they only rank a 3 out of 10 but if they try to look nice they are superficial bitches who are only after money - that it's an issue? That women won't want to be here? And should it be the job of the 6 women to kindly explain to the men WHY women shouldn't be treated that way, and hope it doesn't turn into something where you get hate spammed at you?

C40, of course you don't want to do the work. It's shitty and demoralizing, and often changes nothing. But that doesn't mean that if we all ignore it the space becomes one where women want to be. Of course I respect Jacob and the work he does. But that doesn't mean everyone shares his ideals. And it doesn't make a welcoming space regardless of his personal beliefs.

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:20 am

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:44 am
Should it be the job of those 6 ladies to teach all the men that when they blog about how all women all gold-diggers and only care about x, y, z, and why women who don't look good they only rank a 3 out of 10 but if they try to look nice they are superficial bitches who are only after money - that it's an issue? That women won't want to be here? And should it be the job of the 6 women to kindly explain to the men WHY women shouldn't be treated that way, and hope it doesn't turn into something where you get hate spammed at you?
Huh? No. I definitely did not write or imply that (that it should be the job of 6 women here to teach the men .....), and I believe no one in this thread wrote that.

Now, in "teach all the men that when they blog about how all women all gold-diggers and only care about x, y, z, and ....." [emphasis mine]

All? Really, how many of the men here post things like that? I think it's a small minority (and within that, only about 5-7 users that write the majority of them)

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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:53 am

That wasn't my point. All *of* the men who are acting this way. Not all the men that exist.

It isn't that women are responsible, I'm saying people can only think of a few women, and there are many many men in the group. Why is it we can only think of 6 if people really think that there isn't a good reason women aren't here? 6 women vs 100 men? 200? The numbers look like that for a reason, and I don't think that there isn't interest in it.

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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:04 am

I remember reading that thread specifically as well. It was a contributor to making me not want to sign up at the time, even though there was a specific thing I wanted to post about.

This is in response to Fish's post, which I am not seeing now, although it was a very thoughtful post

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:53 am

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:53 am
That wasn't my point. All *of* the men who are acting this way. Not all the men that exist.

It isn't that women are responsible, I'm saying people can only think of a few women, and there are many many men in the group. Why is it we can only think of 6 if people really think that there isn't a good reason women aren't here? 6 women vs 100 men? 200? The numbers look like that for a reason, and I don't think that there isn't interest in it.
Thank you for the clarification.
Cats_and_tats wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:53 am
Why is it we can only think of 6 if people really think that there isn't a good reason women aren't here? 6 women vs 100 men? 200? The numbers look like that for a reason, and I don't think that there isn't interest in it.
There is interest in it. It has been discussed in a handful of threads. I believe there was one main thread within the last year (that was discussing both the poor posts here and other reasons, but I don't recall what it was called)

I believe a few of the reasons discussed were:
- Some selection/filtering may happen due to Jacob's writing style. Not that it alienates women in any specific way, but that he writes like an INTJ astro physicist, and that realm of work, writing style, etc. is more populated by men (for whatever reason).
- ERE is over at/near an extreme end of the scale of the personal finance world. As that one Canadian guy would say, men have higher disagreeableness, and nearly all of the people with very high disagreeableness are men, and adopting an ERE philosophy does take some or a lot of disagreeableness to many societal/cultural norms, thus men are more likely to do so. I don't mean that women aren't interested in FIRE/ERE, but that they are more likely to end up in different parts of the FIRE world. For example, I'd guess that a lot of women are more likely to read and enjoy Your Money or Your life more than the ERE book.
- Then, for the women that do come look at the forum, they see some aggressive/rude/sexist posts here and some/many don't participate because of it
- Surely other reasons/ideas that I forgot.

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