Random thoughts since I can't keep up with this thread (I find it amusing that we've derailed the derailment thread).
Fish wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:26 am
It’s also a reminder that everything written here is public and may end up in an article, with attribution. Wonder if her quoting from the ERE forum will have a chilling effect.
^^This. The article was a hit piece with no journalistic standards. She had a point to make and went looking for ammo, as opposed to doing research and then drawing conclusions. Also, to echo what Fish said, quoting public figures from private forums (even their own) is out of bounds. I have been friends with jacob for years but would never presume to comment publicly on his wife or marriage, yet this author felt informed enough to do so?
Fish wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:26 am
This is a great article if only because it gets male readers to consider that FIRE-space is a sexist bubble and its implications.
I disagree with the notion that someone can post a provocative piece just to promote the conversation. It's a terrible excuse that's been used to club people unfairly lately. If a conversation is worth having, shenanigans are unnecessary. If they are necessary to make your point, maybe your premise is wrong.
Cats_and_tats wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:37 pm
As a person who has read the forums for awhile [...] If I made a post instead addressed to the few ladies that do post here and asked them their experience of sexism on the boards, how long do you think it would last?
We've had several threads discussing the issue over the last couple of years including the Sexual Harassment thread and one specifically about whether more men than women are interested in FIRE. How long have you actually been reading the forums? Or have you been reading a while but only occasionally? I ask because you've used it as a basis to level pretty harsh criticism at the forum and its members.
Cats_and_tats wrote:Does this thread, where people are making up stories about her, making up ridiculous statements about women in general, and telling women that their experiences are not valid because a handful of women were able to put up with it prove her point? Yeah, I think so.
Cats_and_tats wrote:And why should women fight so hard to be welcome here?
I'm going to push back on this. Men tend to be more active on the forum, but who's fault is that if women choose to lurk more often than men? If all the women who claim to lurk started posting a couple of times a week, the culture on the forum would change instantly. And I don't mean posting just to complain about the forum ... I mean posts of substance that steer the forum in a healthy direction. I've always thought that talking over/past rudeness or obliviousness is a better approach than rebuking or lurking or complaining anyway. I guess that's obvious given my post count.
Let's be honest about that article and how a lot of women feel about ERE. The author detests the lifestyle, as do many women. She would scorn someone like me. Throughout my lifetime, I've received more criticism about my ERE lifestyle from women than men (by far). I've received more criticism about my ERE parenting style from other moms, including here (see the kids thread where Beca tells me I'm not raising my kids right). I've received criticism for not keeping an instagram-worthy appearance, including foregoing beauty-related items and clothing, I've also been shamed by other women for not keeping my house in the same fashion. I've never been criticized by male friends or forumites (some are both) for any of these things.
Many women who've shown an interest in ERE eventually find they are unwilling to give up on the trappings of adult females to pursue ERE hardcore. They claim it's because of the pressures on women to look good, but again, who's fault is that? Why wait for society's permission to change your appearance? Men are under pressures of a different kind and have to sacrifice some level of social acceptance to adhere to ERE. Why shouldn't women? Women can be just as judgmental -- most women I know would think ERE guys are scrubs regardless of their net worth. There's also much more pressure on men than women to have a career in the traditional sense. Sacrifice, albeit different, is required on both sides.
The FIRE movement is lead mostly by men ... it's not dominated
by men. I think the terminology is wrong. If most of the leaders have been men, should we not give them credit just because of their gender? Are we at the point where jacob should apologize for being male? I guess I look at is this way -- men shouldn't feel uncomfortable because they have lead the way wrt FIRE, women should look at themselves and ask why more women aren't doing the same thing. Maybe there are good reasons (we've discussed some in another thread), or maybe women aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices, or maybe they don't want to.
My point is that ERE is hard on both men and women. Men, so far, have been more willing to stand up to the traditional roles and more willing to discuss the problems associated with FIRE/ERE. It's no wonder that the forum topics skew male. Women need to stop waiting for permission or validation. The solution wrt to the forum is simple -- women should post instead of lurking, share their own experiences and challenges, and be willing to let go of the sexism lens when it doesn't apply. It's been my experience that when women jump into the ERE conversation -- not the battle of the sexes conversation but the ERE-focused conversation -- they are treated with the same respect as any other forumite. In many cases, the guys have been fascinated and admittedly enlightened by the issues and viewpoints of the women here. And when they aren't, they are usually called out for it. (But again, don't wait for other men to call them on it, or simply move on and talk over the useless noise until it's drowned out.)
There may be other FIRE places on the web where women aren't treated fairly but that's not my concern. I'm addressing the (IMO unfair) criticisms leveled at ERE on this forum. I've known jacob privately as well as publicly for several years. You couldn't ask for a better champion of women's equality and respect. The author's criticisms were unfair and uninformed, and to continue them here, implying that jacob is somehow complicit in the FIRE movement's gender issues, is grossly unfair.