Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

[Jin+Guice]

Why are friends only worthwhile if the relationship was maintained? What was the point of spending that money on food today when you could've saved the money for tomorrow?

I am only O.K. at acquiring sexual partners/ girlfriends, but I am very good at making friends and maintaining longterm friendships. The key to longterm friendship, particularly long distance friendship is, 1) some sort of roladex with viable current contact information, facebook is ideal for this because it usually gives you some idea where someone lives. and 2) hit them up when you are going to be in their area. Then follow through on the plans to hang out. That's pretty much it. Texting them when you see something that makes you think of them helps, but it's not totally necessary.

I think that maybe you are suffering from some false notion that social relationships work on a very even-handed tit-for-tat one-to-one basis. If you call somebody then they should call you back within X hours, and if you were the one to extend an invitation last week, then they should extend an invitation this week, etc. etc. This is only rarely true. Generally, one individual has to take the lead until force of habit is established. So, in the situation of school or work, it is the administration or ownership who takes on the responsibility of extending invitation, thereby establishing the basis for relationship of convenience.

This holds for friendships and relationships. That's why I don't think talking about it like some sort of market really works. I have friends I almost exclusively take from and friends who almost exclusively take from me. My minimum requirement for friendship is that you are interesting or useful to me in some way. If you are a taker you must do so in a particular way which allows me to erect boundaries that are respected whether you know they are there or not.

Given the choice between working for pay and hanging out with some people you genuinely enjoy who you won't be friends with in a year, would you really chose working? I've always felt we endure the former to enjoy the latter.

[Scott 2]

People in the class Top Hat Fax was exposed to at Amherst merge their work life and personal life. It's not uncommon at all to have zero friends who are not also business/professional associates. Socialization happens at annual corporate ski trips, charity dinners, professional conferences, etc. They help each other out and it becomes self sustaining. The behavior is part of the class divide.

[7Wannabe5]

I have friends I almost exclusively take from and friends who almost exclusively take from me. My minimum requirement for friendship is that you are interesting or useful to me in some way.

Whether or not you view it as a market kind of depends on what tokens of payment you are tracking. For instance, a person might be miffed and say "You are only using me." while simultaneously not wishing to be informed that they are useless.

For instance, some men think that "empathetic listening" and "sensual massage" are things females like to receive in trade, but some of us are like "blech" for those things, and then those men are insulted.

[Jin+Guice]

I disagree with this broad demographic concern. The ideal situation is one where you have access to an essentially limitless pool of single women. You probably only need access to something like 300-500 available women. Realistically you don't need to be in a very large city to do this. I'm not sure what the lower bound is for this but I'd guess around 50,000 to 100,000 people. It's much more important to access a pool of people who are attractive to you who also could potentially find you attractive. I'll take a 60/40 male to female ratio in some hipster dive bar over an 25/75 afternoon of suburban moms any day of the week.

Demographics are more useful at the far end of the spectrum. Obviously, mostly male events aren't going to be the best place to meet women, though it's never impossible. However, you can try and attend mostly female events, like yoga. It's also worth looking for women who aren't putting themselves out there fervently or thinking of groups of women who aren't conventionally attractive that you like. I don't really think charting out where the single and/or available women are is going to get you very far. They're everywhere.

If you really want to analyze this I'd think in terms of sales. If you want to work on something I'd work on cold approaching people. It doesn't have to be exclusively attractive women. Maybe it's better to start with angry old men. Maybe this is just the part I find the hardest.

[Jin+Guice]

Whether or not you view it as a market kind of depends on what tokens of payment you are tracking. For instance, a person might be miffed and say "You are only using me." while simultaneously not wishing to be informed that they are useless.

For instance, some men think that "empathetic listening" and "sensual massage" are things females like to receive in trade, but some of us are like "blech" for those things, and then those men are insulted.

This is why I find it hard to treat it like a market. There aren't really defined terms of exchange or a defined medium of exchange. I don't deny that all relationships are on some level transactional, but it's difficult to define and measure that transaction and the terms likely appear very different to both parties. Thus, analyzing it like it's some sort of "dating market" or "social capital exchange" isn't extremely useful. I think this is also why money is always awkward in these sorts transactions. No one's ever bought me a beer that was only worth $2 of friendship, it's always much much more or much much less.

[jacob]

Also, age difference is more relative than these graphs are able to reveal. For instance, my first lover was a very attractive 23 year old ski bum who was 8 years older than me and seemed like a fully mature grown man (for a ski bum), but 23 seems like and infant to me now. And, with possible exception for the likes of Harrison Ford, I have never dated anybody at mid-life who didn't notice or compensate for the age difference once it gets to around 7 to 12 years.

Didn't the OKCupid survey ask mostly for raw (picture only) attractiveness over any other concerns.

Here's some more data (whether someone is marriage potential or just a sexual fantasy) adding survey numbers to the good old divide by 2 and add 7 rule of social sanctions/commentary: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... d-you-date

It appears that the /2+7 rule is a linear fit to the center of an s-curve. Overall, though, it's clear that the two genders need two different curve fits to the rule but even this still confirms the OKCupid rule that men prefer younger women (or strongly disprefer women who are too much older) and women have the preference to match that i.e. women are more okay with older men on all dimensions and at all ages than men are with women.

[daylen]

I disagree with this broad demographic concern. The ideal situation is one where you have access to an essentially limitless pool of single women. You probably only need access to something like 300-500 available women. Realistically you don't need to be in a very large city to do this. I'm not sure what the lower bound is for this but I'd guess around 50,000 to 100,000 people.

I disagree. I think demographics changes the parameters of the game in hard to predict ways. Certain city characteristics have an effect on the pace of life, and the values of its inhabitants.

[7Wannabe5]

No one's ever bought me a beer that was only worth $2 of friendship, it's always much much more or much much less.

True. In this context money really only serves the purpose of the primer rather than the fuel. One thing I always try to explain is that the vast majority of women don't shop/trade for money, they shop/trade for lifestyle. Obviously this is true or musicians wouldn't get laid as much as they do. I once dated a guy who played football for Bear Bryant, but I have so little interest in sports, I had no clue who Bear Bryant was until I looked it up. All I knew was he was 6'5" and did 500 push-ups every day.

[TopHatFox]

@C40 agreed, the point of this thread is to find solutions, not just complain. I'm familiar with similar charts on the Rational Male. So, from them, some thoughts:

Besides the actionable advice of going where the type of daters you want are (the pretty middle class women that value sensual massage and emphatic listening, all hanging out at the climate justice meeting lol), there are some other experiments I want to try.

I think I'm going to add 3 years to my age when asked, say I'm 27 or 28. Probably to randos and not people near my work or school. I certainly have the NW to do so.

Another good move would be to finally be rid of my braces in a few months. I wouldn't be surprised if these things are actually messing up my game. I remember when I first had them on in hs, I hit a dry spell, and then when I took them off, I suddenly got more attention. And that was when my jaw was slightly fucked up...but now. ( ;

Finally, I doubt I'll actually do this because I like not paying rent rn, but I should consider buying an apartment to rent out to roommates and live in. Something close to work works. Nothing says 28 like having your own well-decorated place with privacy. All of these damn Miami girls live with their parents besides. Of course, I don't want to live here for much longer than until the MPA is done, but I do think generally having your own place is good, and it would have the primary benefit of having other grad students pay my new (cheap) mortgage. At the very least, I am not going to mention I live with my parents.

Besides that...while I don't think I need to buy a car personally (I have visited most of the museums and nature-spots with public transit & some Uber), I do think practicing driving more and getting familiar with ZipCar or Rent-a-Car is a good idea. Much easier to arrange a camping date with long-distance transportation. Technically, I can also say I have a car because I have a family member's Jeep I'm trying to sell.

[7Wannabe5]

the pretty middle class women that value sensual massage and emphatic listening, all hanging out at the climate justice meeting lol

There are a lot of women who value those things. I know because a lot of men offer them to me before they realize that I am already too low-strung, relaxed, hyper-sexual, rational and cheerful to need them. However, I have been known to hang out at climate justice meetings, so you might want to add some throw-her-up-against-a-tree moves into the mix if you want to make it with members of the young too easily bored XNTP female minority

Also, age-ism smage-ism. Here is a good example of younger man exhibiting behavior that makes him attractive to attractive older woman. Check out Dannii's reaction at around 1:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzj9z8QDTfU

[BRUTE]

It makes me wonder, what was the point of forming meaningful friendships and relationships? I do have great memories, but damn, I might as well have worked more since the money i saved up then is still helping me live well now. If close friends or relationships are going to fizzle out so quickly after the « friends of convenience » period is over, then isn’t the idea of friends for life bullshit?

this is not only true for friends, but also lovers, favorite songs, poems, books, movies, co-workers, interests and hobbies, and definitely money.

nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.

[TopHatFox]

@C40, curious, now that you're in your 30's, do you still choose to compete for the 20-something women now that have more of a competitive advantage? Or, do you sidestep them for the 30-something women that have maintained a fit-figure? (Controlling for other qualities you want in a partner)

And on that same vein, do fit 30-something women have the same level of incoming interest as 20-something women? or, perhaps, are the fit 30-something women predominantly interested in 40-something men?

[C40]

Getting the braces off may make a big difference. The jaw might (depending on what it was like... I think it's something that some people notice and some don't notice at all). Living with the parents is indeed another thing. You can make sure you frame it in positive ways - by clarifying that you live living with them because [....] (to spend time with them while you're all healthy, that you get along really well, that yeah it helps with money - but not that it's because you can't afford a place - but that now you have tons of extra money... etc.). I wouldn't really let attracting women be the primary reason you move out. I've lived in a variety of ways, apartments, my own house, with friends, with my mom. Living with the friends and mom didn't noticeably deter women. It was definitely inconvenient. I didn't want to bring women over and go town on them while my mom was at home, and she was always home.

I recommend you don't lie (about your age or anything else).

-----

Yeah, I guess I still compete for the 20-something women. I wouldn't describe my style as competing, but of course that's happening. Now at age 36, I it's getting more and more rare to date women who are in their really low 20s. The times it can happen are generally either when they are quite unique and mature for their age, or ones that have some problems (which I've gotten better over the years at passing on.) But anyways, I'm not that concerned with age myself because I'm not concerned about having children or even being in a very serious monogamous relationship or whatever other things that might matter a lot relating to age.

I'd say that 30-something women have higher interest levels in me than 20-somethings. That's as you'd expect, when the 20-somethings have more options. Plus, I think men tend to let themselves go with age more than women. So the pool of men gets pretty sloppy. The trump card here is personal preferences. Me, and you, and most all of us here have some ways that we are unique. Everything else matters less with women who specifically admire the ways I am different than most people.

In general, me and most men in their mid 30's are most interest in women aged about 25-35.

Women at age 35 are most interested in men something like 33-43 years old.


-----

On the subject of actionable advice, this is very important:

you might want to add some throw-her-up-against-a-tree moves into the mix

One of the reasons the 20-something women like older guys is that (more of) the older ones have learned how to be confidently/assertively dominant. It's not purely something you can go "oh, so that's what you do" and just do it. It takes experience and being perceptive and actually confident. And it's not just about sex. I've heard stories of younger guys trying, but doing things in very awkward ways. And I was awkward myself. When I was in my early 20's I had no clue how much women enjoy being, you know, manhandled (or, how fun it can be for myself).

[TopHatFox]

I am looking forward to see if removing the braces will help. I think it will. The jaw repositioning gave me a better smile, so it will help too. I don't really think living with the parents should matter practically since I have my own room and my parents both work full-time. It's more an issue of handling perception. Perhaps finishing the tiny house would be the better move since then the parents have one more room to rent, and I have my own little house complete with a mini-fence and garden. Selling the family aspect is good, and honestly, it's true, it is nice to help the parents and hangout with them while they're still alive and healthy.

That's cool to know that the competition falls off a cliff in your 30's, just as you can now pull from a greater pool of women who have less options. Balance. Yeah, I'm not looking for children or necessarily even a very serious relationship. Just a relationship, where, you know, people want to put in some effort and it is indeed, "official."

I have lots of throw-her-up-against-a-tree-moves. Which is funny that you mention it, because my first time was in the woods...and then at a church near the woods. I did run the kink group and go to kink conferences in RI after all. Even got the travel paid for by AC somehow

I will say though, it makes me hella uncomfortable to practice any sort of kink or manhandling the first few dates these days. Like, I barely know you, your mental health, dating history, or if you're going to confuse me being dominant/kinky with being a sexual assault perpetrator, even if I ask for consent. And as the definition of sexual assault becomes more and more broad and consent having to be more and more enthusiastic, explicit, signed, maybe even witnessed, etc...I don't know man. I think the biggest issue I've encountered is that a lot of women (and people in general) have a tough time openly talking about sex, what they like, their feelings about it, etc. They just want everything to happen perfectly without an ounce of effort or open communication. Once you get over that hurdle, things are way more fun, but it's usually something that happens after at least a few dates, which means a few dates need to happen.

How do you handle those first moments of intimacy with semi-strangers, where you have no idea what the person's boundaries, likes, legal disposition, mental health, is?

[Jean]

I wouldn't lie either. You know by knowing, and you get confident about doing it by having women "saying" (or just not enjoying it) no and you reckognizing it and stopping. I've been in fear of my partner not consenting for my whole sex life. I handled it by never removing my underwear myself.

Maybe you could buy a warehouse or an old house, build a hut in or outside it, organises parties, have friends starting to live there, organise better party, and then, you will have a constant influx of interessant women direct to your home. It's the situation I was in when I met my girlfriend, and before meeting her, Interesting women my age or younger were plenty.

[7Wannabe5]

How do you handle those first moments of intimacy with semi-strangers, where you have no idea what the person's boundaries, likes, legal disposition, mental health, is?

I think the method that would be simultaneously the safest and the most attractive would be to first attempt to exert or exude dominance prior to actual sexual interaction. For instance, placing your hand to small of back as you guide a woman through a door or picking her up and throwing her into a swimming pool. Mixing dominant signals with tender signals is like crack-level erotic. So, for instance, you could combine a tender physical gesture, which could never possibly be construed as assault, with some very direct verbal banter. Women often like a tease, so if you can subtle the difference between "asking for consent" at every possible juncture vs. confidently or cockily "making her ask for more" and inject a bit of humor, that is usually an attractive play.

I had the great good luck of encountering men who were very good in bed early on in my sexual career, but it definitely varies. I wish men could experience how other men behave in bed and relationships, and especially how often this will greatly vary from a man's social behavior. For instance, somebody most everybody thinks is a great guy can be a selfish prick in bed and vice-versa. I think they would then be more inclined to cut females more slack.

[iopsi]

The bubble won't pop as long as there are no major societal changes. Either something that lowers early 20s female value (realistic sex robots? immersive VR porn?) or that increases male value (societal collapse that makes physical strength important for survival again?).
But i think neither of those are likely in our lifetime, so we can either play the game or opt-out. I've tried playing it for long without much success, now i'm more on the opt-out phase (not completely tho).

I think today the most important factors are looks, social status and the ability to make a girl "feel good" (sexually and otherwise). Money in itself not so much (as long as you are not an hobo, but even that is probably more about the low social status and poor hygiene) since women are able to sustain themselves without a man.
For attracting young 20s girls, the most important among those 3 things are looks imo. Infact in that age group looks are the major contributor to status itself, and it is likely that a good looking guy is also comparatively good at flirting, in bed, etc considering that he would have had much experience (likely more than his bad looking peers) just by virtue of his looks.

This thing about guys on their 30s being more attractive seems off to me. At best you are more attractive to the 30s women, but definetly not to younger girls. How many of the best looking girls in your area between, lets say, 20 and 24 are dating guys in their 30s? Not many i bet.
In my experience, becoming older is only gradually making it harder to attract one of that age group (and i'm not even 30).

[prognastat]

@iopsi

I don't know about others, but I was using attractive in a more general way in my response Not just physically attractive(note the need to add an adjective to make it specific) Although a man in his 30s might not be physically more attractive he can still be more generally attractive through signalling maturity, reliability and often wealth(security).

Also unlike men women don't have the same aversion to older men. For example it's pretty rare for an early 20s man to look for a woman in her late 30s. Much less uncommon for the reverse.

I also doubt robots/VR will be replacing women anytime soon. There is more than just physicality to being in a relationship. To achieve that in either VR or robots you would need actual AI capable of reciprocating affection. At that point you have some serious ethical dilemmas. Are you going to purchase a VR/robotic product that could potentially fall out of love with you/dump you? If it can't and it is truly sentient this would be immoral and if it could few would want to purchase it. If it can't but isn't truly sentient and just faking it then deep down you would probably not feel fulfilled.

[iopsi]

@iopsi

I don't know about others, but I was using attractive in a more general way in my response Not just physically attractive(note the need to add an adjective to make it specific) Although a man in his 30s might not be physically more attractive he can still be more generally attractive through signalling maturity, reliability and often wealth(security).

Also unlike men women don't have the same aversion to older men. For example it's pretty rare for an early 20s man to look for a woman in her late 30s. Much less uncommon for the reverse.

I agree that a man in his 30s has other qualities, but i don't think they compensate for the loss of youth (from the perspective of the average 20 year old girl for example). A man in his 30s will have worse looks, likely completely different interests and focus, etc.

Of course if we talk about girls in their late 20s or 30s, it is different.

I also doubt robots/VR will be replacing women anytime soon. There is more than just physicality to being in a relationship. To achieve that in either VR or robots you would need actual AI capable of reciprocating affection. At that point you have some serious ethical dilemmas. Are you going to purchase a VR/robotic product that could potentially fall out of love with you/dump you? If it can't and it is truly sentient this would be immoral and if it could few would want to purchase it. If it can't but isn't truly sentient and just faking it then deep down you would probably not feel fulfilled.

That was just an example, i too don't believe that will happen (short of creating robots with human-level AI, as you said).

[Jean]

I look way better now than when I was twenty. I wasn't looking bad at the time, maybe I already peaked in physical atractivness (i'm 32), but this peak iss a lot closer to 30 than 20 yo. And I could say the same for most of my male friends.
Female on the opposite were at the hottest around 22-24. Those with a healthy lifestyle (moderate sport, not much drugs (including smoke and alcohol), an no birth control pill), don't seem to start aging until sometimes at least 28.