What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

[BRUTE]

Your arguments are starting to sound very defeatist and un-ERE.

Smashter is free to bring up arguments against what brute has said.

brute never said that hunter gatherers sleep all the time, or are to be emulated. brute is saying that lack of sleep can cause insulin and cortisol to spike.

[C40]

What time does brute go to sleep?

[BRUTE]

that's not how the circadian rhythm works. C40 can read books on this, as the science has been done. there is a very strong natural diversity in circadian rhythms, which can not be changed.

brute repeats his question:
does it sound reasonable that a night owl, who's deprived of 1.5-2.5h of sleep every work night, would on average have worse insulin sensitivity than a lark who is perfectly in alignment with current work times?

[Augustus]

again, brute has never said anything negative about olive oil, and olive oil is mostly non-PUFA. Augustus is making several logical errors here:
1)brute never made the claim Augustus is refuting ("olive oil is bad")
2)olive oil is not actually high in PUFAs as Augustus seems to believe

Augustus was not actually talking to brute. brute therefore made this logical error, not Augustus. Augustus was responding to this line in particular, as referenced in Augustus' OP:

classical_Liberal wrote: ↑ This lead me into the rabbit hole of polyunsaturated fats and cardiac disease. This research is an ongoing process with less conclusive science, but I'm "sold" enough to cut them from my diet. Further research may show them to be nearly as harmful as transfat.

If there is research indicating all pufas are bad, I am very interested in it, because I need to adjust my diet if so.

[C40]

I've changed my sleep/wake times and had it work out just fine. If I go to bed at 8pm consistently for a couple months, I wake up at 4am. If I go to bed at 2am for a couple months, I wake up at 10am. In either case, I felt so close to good and normal that I didn't consider the sleep times bad other than that they could be inconvenient logistically (like if I wanted to stay up later on weekends).

When I changed by really large amounts (sleeping 8am-4pm) I did have some negative effects. I could go to sleep and wake at those times just fine, but I regularly felt about 10% 'off'

So, based on my personal experience, no, it doesn't sound all that reasonable. I mean, yeah it still sounds reasonable that there's some effect, but, really, It sounds to me like a current night owl should just go to sleep earlier. I do understand that not everyone has it as well as I do... but.. do you try? For how long and how consistently?

[BRUTE]

does brute really strike C40 as the type who hasn't tried this? brute has read tons of books on circadian rhythm, has tried supplements, has tried various sleep rhythms and strategies, has read scientific papers on the topic, has used a light box, blue blockers..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype

Normal variation in chronotype encompasses sleep–wake cycles that are from about two hours earlier to about two hours later than average.

C40 and brute are about 3h apart on this, indicating that brute is a strong owl and C40 is a light lark.

so basically, brute's entire working life is spent in that "10% off zone" at best. when not working, and waking up normally, brute felt physically great by default. with work, it's the exception, maybe one to three days per month.

it seems that C40 is looking for a way that he can blame brute for not sleeping right or not having the body composition that he desires. and in a way, this is right - brute could quit his job (again), and these issues would be fixed, like they were last time. brute would sleep like a baby, feel 100% all the time, and reach his ideal body composition once again.

brute has to make the tradeoff of earning money while he is not FIRE, or being in good physical/mental shape. brute has decided, for now, to continue working. but he is definitely planning on resolving this conflict sooner rather than later, either by lean firing or switching to a job more suitable for his chronotype.

[C40]

does brute really strike C40 as the type who hasn't tried this? brute has read tons of books on circadian rhythm, has tried supplements, has tried various sleep rhythms and strategies, has read scientific papers on the topic, has used a light box, blue blockers..

No. So I was a little surprised by your initial response to me asking.

it seems that C40 is looking for a way that he can blame brute for not sleeping right or not having the body composition that he desires. and in a way, this is right - brute could quit his job (again), and these issues would be fixed, like they were last time. brute would sleep like a baby, feel 100% all the time, and reach his ideal body composition once again.

I don't mean to make the focus on you specifically. In these posts of mine here today, I'm interested in learning in general.

Some of your posts did (initially) led me to believe you were being defeatist yourself -- but still, I know that you know what you're talking about, so I am learning.

[BRUTE]

brute is maybe "lucky" in that most solutions in most areas of life that work for humans typically don't work for him. this forces brute to evaluate how things work on an individual basis. maybe 100% keto is not for all humans, for example, as is typing fast for a living.

things that work for C40 might not necessarily work for others, especially in complex systems such as the human metabolism.

brute has found this out the hard way, by enthusiastically telling humans what worked for him, and seeing them fail at it, terribly. brute is exceptionally anti-social, has his ego heavily tied up with being in the out-group rather than the in-group, loves spending his time reading what humans consider useless information, and loves arguing to improve his understanding of facts and causality. brute can happily eat the exact same meal for months at a time, if it's the right meal - humans can rarely do that.

this has made brute skeptical about advice in general. advice works when it is either super-specific (type 2 diabetes who enjoys meat? why not try keto?), or the advice giver and taker happen to be in similar circumstances.

but "eating right" and "going to bed earlier" as advice are as helpful to brute as "just get a 6 figure job with a tech company in a HCOL city" is to somebody with a criminal conviction who can't read well.

as to being "defeatist", sometimes that's the right strategy.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

brute's wisdom in certain areas (diet, sleep) has given him the serenity to accept the things he currently cannot change. trying something that's not possible would be a waste of resources. not everything can be changed just by believing in it. brute is open to arguments, but to be honest, brute has spent a metric fuckton of time learning about and experimenting with diet and sleep, and would be extremely surprised if he encountered a new idea.

[C40]

I appreciate you sharing here

[BRUTE]

brute also likes humans to know how clever he is

[C40]

[Smashter]

I also appreciate you sharing and clarifying. I respect your smarts and your n=1 experiments, and I believe that only you know what is best for your specific biology. I apologize for calling you defeatist.

I think part of the reason we spar on health topics is I truly never thought I would see you say this:

maybe 100% keto is not for all humans

So, kudos for updating, and may we all think things through as thoroughly as Brute.

[classical_Liberal]

Augustus was not actually talking to brute. brute therefore made this logical error, not Augustus. Augustus was responding to this line in particular, as referenced in Augustus' OP:

classical_Liberal wrote: ↑ This lead me into the rabbit hole of polyunsaturated fats and cardiac disease. This research is an ongoing process with less conclusive science, but I'm "sold" enough to cut them from my diet. Further research may show them to be nearly as harmful as transfat.

If there is research indicating all pufas are bad, I am very interested in it, because I need to adjust my diet if so.

All PUSFA are not bad. My statement above is pretty clear the evidence is not yet decisive. My opinion on the matter is essentially what Brute has already stated. Vegetable oils made from industrial process (corn, soybean, even canola) may be linked to cardiac disease. Re olive oil, in the same comment I spoke about my increased olive oil consumption as it is mostly monounsaturated, again already addressed by brute. Canola oil is also "mostly" mono, but less so than olive and a lower smoke point, so less useful in cooking and less healthy

There has been plenty of discussion regarding omega 3/6 fatty acid ratios. Modern agriculture has thrown this balance out of wack and there is evidence suggesting this is the reason saturated fats (in the form of red meat) have been linked to cardiac disease. This is mainly due to the fact these animals have been fed en mass the same grain products from which we obtain our processed PUSFA oils.

Although the evidence is not yet clear. Processed vegetable oils high in omega 6 are beginning to look as if they are more harmful than helpful. Again, not all are created equal with linolenic being a huge "X" factor.

The problem with health related science; in order to show a clear cut causal effect, the impact of a single food change must be immense. There are just too many confounding variables. As a result is rarely happens. Although it has happened with transfats, if that tells you anything about the dangers.

If I were to list my opinion on fats from most harmful to most healthy based on source It would go something like:

1) Any form of trans fat (the smoking gun of CAD, as cigarettes are to small cell lung cancer)
2) Saturated fats from grain fed industrial animals high in Omega 6. (grain fattened beef, butter)
3) Processed PUSFA vegetable oils, most high in omega 6
4) Mono unsaturated oils (the more mono the better)
5) Saturated coconut butter/Saturated fats from grass fed meat
6) Fish oil high in Omega 3 (linolenic is TBD)

[Augustus]

I feel that we are now in harmony, thanks CL! You gave me a scare at first.

The healthy saturated fat thing is news to me, I will research. I generally avoid them, my protein comes from whey isolate, eggs, chicken and fish. In that order for the most part. Throw in a steak every so often, or some pork.

Oh wise and venerable brute, do you see issues in my protein logic? Whey isolate is something I'm a little suspicious of, just because it's so new, I buy the good stuff though, lab tested pure.

Oh, and foremost on my mind, does anyone know if bacon is really highly carcinogenic? I read that recently. I love bacon...

[BRUTE]

brute personally prefers the taste of fattier meats: beef, pork. brute finds whey isolate (or other protein powders) terrible, they're not filling at all. but nothing wrong with any of it, it seems more of a personal preference.

[Lemur]

@Brute: Fattier meat is definitely the way to go imo. It is usually the cheaper meat and fits perfectly into my Keto diet.

Keto seems to be the way to go for me; not only just for weight loss but for lifestyle as well. I feel full of stable energy (no ups or down), never get hungry during the day, I'm more mentally focused, and my bodycomposition just seems to improve subtly day by day. I'm not sleeping any better but when I do wake up in the morning, I'm not as tired as I used to be.

I mainly stick to fatty meats, eggs, cheese, avocados (sparingly...expensive little suckers), and vegetables. For veggies, usually just spinach, kale, Brocolli, and cauliflower. For caluiflower, I just take off a few chunks in the fridge and toss into whatever I'm cooking.

YMMV...I take it some people do better on carbs but some people are insulin resistant and I think diets with very low carbs really help these situations out.

[IlliniDave]

I've done low carb high protein and did fairly well on it. I'm now experimenting with keto for the first time. No real complaints so far, and in terms of general feelings of well being I don't detect much difference between LCHP and LCHF, except maybe I sleep better on LCHF. The only problem is that autumn is coming and I seem to be subject to seasonal rhythms and have strong urges which tend to fatten me up as winter approaches. Fall being the one time of year I indulge in a few hours of day time television per week (yes, football) doesn't help that.

[BRUTE]

changes in behavior and body composition in rhythm with the seasons. it's almost as if humans were animals.

[IlliniDave]

changes in behavior and body composition in rhythm with the seasons. it's almost as if humans were animals.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

[suomalainen]

A new study mentioned in the (failing) NY Times that supports the thesis that CICO isn't an accurate depiction of the metabolic pathways of the body:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/well ... eight.html

But a large new study published on Wednesday in the journal BMJ challenges the conventional wisdom. It found that overweight adults who cut carbohydrates from their diets and replaced them with fat sharply increased their metabolisms. After five months on the diet, their bodies burned roughly 250 calories more per day than people who ate a high-carb, low-fat diet, suggesting that restricting carb intake could help people maintain their weight loss more easily.