What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

[BRUTE]

olive oil is 70% monounsaturated, 15% polyunsaturated, and 15% saturated. the human body requires a tiny bit of polyunsaturated fats, but not much. polyunsaturated fats are very reactive in the body and tend to cause the smaller, denser LDL cholesterol particles that end up stuck in the artery walls, causing heart disease. on the other hand, monounsaturated and saturated fats tend to cause large, fluffy particles and therefore do not contribute to heart disease.

[BRUTE]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil

citation not needed unless Augustus provides one for his claim.

[C40]

...rendering what an individual eats completely irrelevant.

uhhhh... are you referring here to only the type of food and not quantity?

[BRUTE]

...rendering what an individual eats completely irrelevant.

uhhhh... are you referring here to only the type of food and not quantity?

no, both type and quantity. both CAN have an effect, but they're not necessarily the only factors.

it has been demonstrated that insulin and cortisol can be manipulated by lack of sleep, low quality sleep, sleep at the wrong time, work stress, environmental stressors (noise, air quality, people), high-carb foods, high-protein foods, meal frequency, and probably more.

it's like a bottleneck. if humans eat 5 meals with tons of sugar per day, their insulin will be chronically high, no matter how good their sleep or how relaxed they are.

on the other hand: if humans are lacking sleep and are stressed, it doesn't matter how good their diet is, their insulin will still be chronically elevated, rendering them unable to use much of their own body fat, and even gaining body fat.

food is overrated as a factor in body composition, almost as much as exercise. that's why no combination of diet and exercise will work for all humans - for many, that's not their metabolic bottleneck.

[BRUTE]

Which claim? Previous post was based on:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/defendi ... eputation/

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying- ... d-and-good

Augustus' own link (MDA) says this:

The story as commonly told is, roughly, that unsaturated fat-rich LDL are inherently unstable and prone to oxidative damage, so eating a lot of unsaturated fats will mean vulnerable LDL and eating lots of saturated fats will mean stable LDL. Since the primary fat in olive oil is the unsaturated monounsaturated oleic acid, the common idea is that eating too much olive oil will make LDL vulnerable to oxidation like the other unsaturated fats.

this is exactly what brute is saying about PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids).

olive oil is LOW in PUFA, as per the wikipedia link brute posted above.

brute never said anything against olive oil. in fact, brute is fond of it. Augustus is the one who confused olive oil with an oil high in PUFAs (generally these are the seed oils like grapeseed oil, soybean oil, canola oil).

basically, most MUFAs and SFAs are fine even in large quantities. they occur in nature: MUFAs are abundant in naturally fatty plants like avocado and olives, SFAs in animal fats and a few plants like coconuts. the human metabolism is pretty well adapted to them. PUFAs from pressed seeds/grains are a relatively recent invention, and the human body is not well-adapted to them. they started coming around after the fat scare, in the 50s and onwards.

trans fats are PUFAs that are chemically altered to make them more stable, like SFAs. (PUFAs are always liquid, SFAs can be solid, like butter and coconut oil). thus in order to make margarine and the like, humans tried to chemically alter PUFAs, creating trans fats. trans fats are just the worst.

it's probably more useful not to think purely in the categories of PUFA, MUFA, or SFA. fish oil contains good PUFAs, like omega 3 and 6, and a certain amount is necessary. pressed seed oils, on the other hand, are also PUFAs - but they're bad in high quantities, i.e. when used as a staple instead of SFAs from animal fat.

since Augustus brings up Mark's Daily Apple, here's Mark on PUFAs:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/polyunsaturated-fat/

[C40]

What percentage of humans would you say are so affected by naturally poor insulin response (or by having moderate levels of stress cause a poor insulin response) to the extent that the things that work for most people (good diet (type and quantity of food), exercise, normal sleep duration) to be ineffective?


Aside from these things, is it correct that over any substantial period of time (>1 month), caloric deficit of significance will always means fat loss? (no matter levels of stress, hormone imbalance, etc.)

[BRUTE]

What percentage of humans would you say are so affected by naturally poor insulin response (or by having moderate levels of stress cause a poor insulin response) to the extent that the things that work for most people (good diet (type and quantity of food), exercise, normal sleep duration) to be ineffective?

that's of course hard to say. would C40 argue that "good diet" + "exercise" (excluding sleep) work for most humans? brute has read that American humans sleep on average 1 hour less than they did 50 years ago or so. this would mean a dramatic percentage of them would have sleep deprivation induced insulin problems, rendering their diet/exercise efforts more difficult or even useless.

brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict. a further 50% are still negatively affected, where they can have success with diet + exercise, but it's very difficult.

Aside from these things, is it correct that over any substantial period of time (>1 month), caloric deficit of significance will always means fat loss? (no matter levels of stress, hormone imbalance, etc.)

what does "caloric deficit" mean here? brute's point is that CO is adjusted by the body to CI, making it impossible to sustain a caloric deficit for long periods unless one is fasting completely. brute has experience his body turning down CO to 800-1000kcal/day over the period of 1-2 months.

[C40]

brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict. a further 50% are still negatively affected, where they can have success with diet + exercise, but it's very difficult.

Wow, that's a lot.

Of these effected people, how many of them would you say had naturally poor insulin responses vs. having it caused by stress levels?

[BRUTE]

Of these effected people, how many of them would you say had naturally poor insulin responses vs. having it caused by stress levels?

probably less than 10% genetic. maybe more if including epigenetic.

if brute looks at very old movies, or even ancient stories, fat humans have always existed. but they used to be pretty rare. seems like most communities had at least one token fat human, but most humans were "normal", or what would nowadays be considered "lean".

so brute instinctively guesses that it's mostly environmental, which could include multi-generational factors like epigenetics.

several posts ago brute asked C40 a question:
what time does C40 wake up naturally when there are no jobs/social obligations/alarm clocks?

[Smashter]

brute has read that American humans sleep on average 1 hour less than they did 50 years ago or so. this would mean a dramatic percentage of them would have sleep deprivation induced insulin problems, rendering their diet/exercise efforts more difficult or even useless.

brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict.

The latest research shows that modern hunter-gatherers, who have virtually no obesity or chronic diseases, get less sleep than the average American.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... an-you-do/

Your arguments are starting to sound very defeatist and un-ERE. They are the diet equivalent of saying "advertising is so much better than it was fifty years ago, so it's not my fault if I go into debt buying crap I don't need."

Sure, it is harder to be healthy when our sleep is impacted. Just ask any new parent. But to say that diet and exercise cannot positively affect someone's life just because they are sleeping an hour less is absurd.

I believe in Brute's ability to overcome these challenges

[C40]

These days, around 7am.

Usually I wake up earlier (like 6am, no matter what time I go to bed) and go back to sleep for a while longer.

[BRUTE]

Most studies show that extra virgin olive oil either reduces measurable oxidized LDL or reduces measurable markers for oxidized LDL in humans.

again, brute has never said anything negative about olive oil, and olive oil is mostly non-PUFA. Augustus is making several logical errors here:
1)brute never made the claim Augustus is refuting ("olive oil is bad")
2)olive oil is not actually high in PUFAs as Augustus seems to believe

therefore the article quoted by Augustus is perfectly in accordance with what brute is saying.

My question is where is the research that shows that all pufas cause inflammation? The reason I ask is that everything I've read says fish oils and nuts are good for you. Is this not the case? If not, what research has specifically identified fish oil and nuts as bad? They are high in pufas. I am genuinely curious.

1.not all PUFAs are bad, mostly pressed seed PUFAs in high volume
2.fish oil is perfectly fine
3.nuts are probably mostly fine if not overdone

brute's last post explained specifically that not all PUFAs are created equal.

[BRUTE]

These days, around 7am.

Usually I wake up earlier (like 6am, no matter what time I go to bed) and go back to sleep for a while longer.

for brute, it is 9:30am-10:30am. yet brute has to get up at 8am the latest to make it to work on time.

does it sound reasonable that a night owl, who's deprived of 1.5-2.5h of sleep every work night, would on average have worse insulin sensitivity than a lark who is perfectly in alignment with current work times?

[BRUTE]

Your arguments are starting to sound very defeatist and un-ERE.

Smashter is free to bring up arguments against what brute has said.

brute never said that hunter gatherers sleep all the time, or are to be emulated. brute is saying that lack of sleep can cause insulin and cortisol to spike.

[C40]

What time does brute go to sleep?

[BRUTE]

that's not how the circadian rhythm works. C40 can read books on this, as the science has been done. there is a very strong natural diversity in circadian rhythms, which can not be changed.

brute repeats his question:
does it sound reasonable that a night owl, who's deprived of 1.5-2.5h of sleep every work night, would on average have worse insulin sensitivity than a lark who is perfectly in alignment with current work times?

[C40]

I've changed my sleep/wake times and had it work out just fine. If I go to bed at 8pm consistently for a couple months, I wake up at 4am. If I go to bed at 2am for a couple months, I wake up at 10am. In either case, I felt so close to good and normal that I didn't consider the sleep times bad other than that they could be inconvenient logistically (like if I wanted to stay up later on weekends).

When I changed by really large amounts (sleeping 8am-4pm) I did have some negative effects. I could go to sleep and wake at those times just fine, but I regularly felt about 10% 'off'

So, based on my personal experience, no, it doesn't sound all that reasonable. I mean, yeah it still sounds reasonable that there's some effect, but, really, It sounds to me like a current night owl should just go to sleep earlier. I do understand that not everyone has it as well as I do... but.. do you try? For how long and how consistently?

[BRUTE]

does brute really strike C40 as the type who hasn't tried this? brute has read tons of books on circadian rhythm, has tried supplements, has tried various sleep rhythms and strategies, has read scientific papers on the topic, has used a light box, blue blockers..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype

Normal variation in chronotype encompasses sleep–wake cycles that are from about two hours earlier to about two hours later than average.

C40 and brute are about 3h apart on this, indicating that brute is a strong owl and C40 is a light lark.

so basically, brute's entire working life is spent in that "10% off zone" at best. when not working, and waking up normally, brute felt physically great by default. with work, it's the exception, maybe one to three days per month.

it seems that C40 is looking for a way that he can blame brute for not sleeping right or not having the body composition that he desires. and in a way, this is right - brute could quit his job (again), and these issues would be fixed, like they were last time. brute would sleep like a baby, feel 100% all the time, and reach his ideal body composition once again.

brute has to make the tradeoff of earning money while he is not FIRE, or being in good physical/mental shape. brute has decided, for now, to continue working. but he is definitely planning on resolving this conflict sooner rather than later, either by lean firing or switching to a job more suitable for his chronotype.

[C40]

does brute really strike C40 as the type who hasn't tried this? brute has read tons of books on circadian rhythm, has tried supplements, has tried various sleep rhythms and strategies, has read scientific papers on the topic, has used a light box, blue blockers..

No. So I was a little surprised by your initial response to me asking.

it seems that C40 is looking for a way that he can blame brute for not sleeping right or not having the body composition that he desires. and in a way, this is right - brute could quit his job (again), and these issues would be fixed, like they were last time. brute would sleep like a baby, feel 100% all the time, and reach his ideal body composition once again.

I don't mean to make the focus on you specifically. In these posts of mine here today, I'm interested in learning in general.

Some of your posts did (initially) led me to believe you were being defeatist yourself -- but still, I know that you know what you're talking about, so I am learning.

[BRUTE]

brute is maybe "lucky" in that most solutions in most areas of life that work for humans typically don't work for him. this forces brute to evaluate how things work on an individual basis. maybe 100% keto is not for all humans, for example, as is typing fast for a living.

things that work for C40 might not necessarily work for others, especially in complex systems such as the human metabolism.

brute has found this out the hard way, by enthusiastically telling humans what worked for him, and seeing them fail at it, terribly. brute is exceptionally anti-social, has his ego heavily tied up with being in the out-group rather than the in-group, loves spending his time reading what humans consider useless information, and loves arguing to improve his understanding of facts and causality. brute can happily eat the exact same meal for months at a time, if it's the right meal - humans can rarely do that.

this has made brute skeptical about advice in general. advice works when it is either super-specific (type 2 diabetes who enjoys meat? why not try keto?), or the advice giver and taker happen to be in similar circumstances.

but "eating right" and "going to bed earlier" as advice are as helpful to brute as "just get a 6 figure job with a tech company in a HCOL city" is to somebody with a criminal conviction who can't read well.

as to being "defeatist", sometimes that's the right strategy.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

brute's wisdom in certain areas (diet, sleep) has given him the serenity to accept the things he currently cannot change. trying something that's not possible would be a waste of resources. not everything can be changed just by believing in it. brute is open to arguments, but to be honest, brute has spent a metric fuckton of time learning about and experimenting with diet and sleep, and would be extremely surprised if he encountered a new idea.