What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

[ajcoleman22]

... when compared to active paleo/keto dieting humans, vegans/vegetarians do not live longer...

The more I read your posts, the more I think you are my intellectual doppelganger.

If BRUTE is so willing, can you provide the studies that allowed you to gain the above in-site?

[ajcoleman22]

@classical_libreral

Here are some additional resources you might find interesting in your understanding of cholesterol:

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/

http://cholesterolcode.com/

It's amazing that the more I read, the more I realize there are tons to things we simply don't understand.

[Kriegsspiel]

what if human BMR adjusts to prior caloric intake?

It's pretty much guaranteed your maintenance calories will fluctuate if you are dieting down, putting on some muscle, etc.

[classical_Liberal]

@kreigspiel
Obviously change in body composition will impact resting calorie consumption, hence BMR. However, it has been shown that BMR changes occur independent of composition changes. IOW, body will run "hot" with sufficient calories and will run "cool" with insufficient caloric intake.

@Brute
Agree that other factors impact hormonal balance. However, the cause-effect relationship to metabolic syndrome seems less proven wrt sleep and stress than insulin spikes. Hormonal research is rather expensive, without backing of the pharmaceutical industry correlation may be the best we get in the near future.

[Kriegsspiel]

@kreigspiel
Obviously change in body composition will impact resting calorie consumption, hence BMR. However, it has been shown that BMR changes occur independent of composition changes. IOW, body will run "hot" with sufficient calories and will run "cool" with insufficient caloric intake.

Yes.

[BRUTE]

Agree that other factors impact hormonal balance. However, the cause-effect relationship to metabolic syndrome seems less proven wrt sleep and stress than insulin spikes. Hormonal research is rather expensive, without backing of the pharmaceutical industry correlation may be the best we get in the near future.

sleep affects insulin and cortisol, so it's not an either-or. brute's point was that diet and exercise are overrated in body composition, not insulin/hormones.

it would be cool if humans developed live, 24/7 insulin (or other hormone) monitoring systems. blood glucose is not a good enough proxy - it leads to low-carb, which works for those humans where insulin spikes were caused by dietary carbohydrate. for many it does not.

[banker22]

@BRUTE

I too have experimented with keto and fasting to great effect. I never seem to make it past the first 1-2 weeks, however, and always gain it back!

Some questions, if you don't mind?

1. How did you deal with cravings during the initial phase?
2. How does your weekly / daily diet set up look in terms of foods eaten, time fasting, etc?
3. What are your blood markers and how have they improved since beginning this WOE?
4. What is your bodyfat level?
5. Do you ever cheat?
6. Do you find this WOE restricts your ability to engage in sustained high intensity exercise at all?

Thank you!

[BRUTE]

1. How did you deal with cravings during the initial phase?

the current stint is brute's 3rd or 4th run on very low carb/keto. there were almost no cravings this time. brute is unsure if this is because he had prior experience with keto, or because the benefits were just so great this time.

2. How does your weekly / daily diet set up look in terms of foods eaten, time fasting, etc?

brute drinks coffee with cream in the morning and throughout the day. on the weekends, he mostly only eats some cheese for lunch, and a big dinner. sometimes he forgets to eat until 4pm or so. if social events happen, brute will often eat at them. it's not really a strict schedule.

sometimes, brute fasts for longer periods of time (previously for 7-10 days at a time). but with work, this is difficult.

brute eats pretty much the exact same meals all the time. it's either steak, or ground beef with a few vegetables and cheese for taste. sometimes eggs.

3. What are your blood markers and how have they improved since beginning this WOE?

brute has not checked. they were fine before. brute assumes they are fine now.

4. What is your bodyfat level?

too high. brute was quite happy with his body fat levels after a long time of not working and doing nothing. since starting work again, brute has gained a lot of body fat :-/ diet and exercise unchanged. this proves to brute that keto is very good for fat loss in the right circumstances, but it's not magic. if stress/sleep mess up brute's hormones, it doesn't matter how strict the diet is or how much he exercises.

5. Do you ever cheat?

all the time. with ribeye steak. seriously though, no. all the most delicious foods are high fat. plus the benefits are just too good to even think about it. brute has fallen out of ketosis maybe 3 times in the last 2 years, usually because of hidden sugars.

6. Do you find this WOE restricts your ability to engage in sustained high intensity exercise at all?

brute doesn't like the term WOE. what's wrong with diet? word twisting.

unsure if "restrict" is the right word, but it definitely feels different. lifting heavy is fine. CrossFit-type metcon workouts > 5 minutes feel.. different. on carbs, brute would eventually gas, sucking air. on keto, brute wasn't gassing in the sucking-air sense, it felt more like a drained battery. his body would just stop doing the things. humans report that their bodies eventually get used to producing enough ATP to sustain longer metcons. maybe brute would've adapted if he'd stuck with metcons for more than a few months, but circumstances made it hard to stick with it. brute would say he's unsure that he performs worse at metcons on keto, it might just feel different. it definitely felt more detached, as if brute was watching himself gas instead of gassing.

keto is crazy good for long hikes. apparently marathons, too, but brute doesn't run marathons. hiking, there's just infinite energy.

unfortunately, brute hates hiking.

[banker22]

Thanks Brute. I think you're very close to being exactly right, but please let me challenge a few things:

- why is fasting difficult with work? Surely it's easier to not eat. What do you do for a living, if you don't mind me asking?

- why haven't you had your bloods checked and how could you assume they would be better? I would be very curious to see your results. I agree that they probably are better, but I want to see!

- if you aren't happy with your body comp, why don't you add in a little more fasting?

- you mentioned in an earlier post about the ideal ratio of triglycerides to HDL. This was interesting. Where do you learn about this? Is there a book or source you can recommend?

- reading through this old post, it seems you were staunchly against the CICO model (which has never really been disproven), mainly because you lost weight on a lot of calories. Now you are gaining weight on a lot of calories, you don't admit that maybe CICO is true, rather there must be some other factor at play. Can you talk us through the thought process and show us it's not just cognitive dissonance at play (which we are all guilty of!)

Thank you

[BRUTE]

- why is fasting difficult with work? Surely it's easier to not eat. What do you do for a living, if you don't mind me asking?

it is much easier not to eat. but not eating requires energy to come from body fat reserves. if hormonal conditions are not right, there is not enough lipolysis going on to supply a sufficient amount of energy to sustain fasting.

brute has previously fasted for 10 days straight. no big deal. he didn't even feel anything until mid day 3. while working, brute can sometimes not even fast 2 days without negative symptoms (getting sick, irritability, cramps).

brute's job involves sitting on a chair and typing quickly.

- why haven't you had your bloods checked and how could you assume they would be better? I would be very curious to see your results. I agree that they probably are better, but I want to see!

so much effort. tbh, brute has intended to get his blood checked forever. he just never got around to doing it. any day now.

- if you aren't happy with your body comp, why don't you add in a little more fasting?

see 1. brute has tried this - it does not work in current work circumstances. brute plans to FIRE and then lose the fat again. maybe a different job would be more suited, so if brute switches jobs before FIREing, he'll try again.

this is, brute thinks, the irony of body composition: those who need it are (clearly, because they need it) in circumstances that won't allow the solutions to work.

- you mentioned in an earlier post about the ideal ratio of triglycerides to HDL. This was interesting. Where do you learn about this? Is there a book or source you can recommend?

brute forgot where he originally found it. if banker22 will search for it, there are thousands of articles. afabk, it is currently the best (blood lipid based) predictor of heart disease.

- reading through this old post, it seems you were staunchly against the CICO model (which has never really been disproven), mainly because you lost weight on a lot of calories. Now you are gaining weight on a lot of calories, you don't admit that maybe CICO is true, rather there must be some other factor at play. Can you talk us through the thought process and show us it's not just cognitive dissonance at play (which we are all guilty of!)

brute has lost weight on a >4,000kcal/day diet. brute has failed to lose weight over 1 month of ~800kcal per day (mostly carbs).

the problem, as brute has extensively described (maybe in this thread), is that CICO is meaningless.

brute isn't arguing that when he lost fat, fat did not leave his fat cells. that's a tautology.

rather, brute is arguing that CICO has zero prescriptive value for body composition, because CI and CO are totally dependent on each other.

brute's body is apparently capable of maintaining weight for 1 month on a 800kcal/day diet. it can also maintain or even lose weight on a >4,000kcal/day diet. clearly, brute's body is capable of varying the amount of energy spent enormously - otherwise, brute would be dead.

it's pretty clear that the human body can adapt its energy expenditure tremendously to match the available energy supply. thus, reducing CI simply leads to reduced CO. there was a study on "the biggest loser" contestants, and after years of dieting, their metabolisms had been driven down so far that their TDEE was way below 1,000kcal/day, similar to brute's 800kcal. maybe that's somewhat of a lower limit of what's sustainable.

if CO is increased, hormones will trigger hunger, and CI will increase correspondingly, or negative symptoms will appear. brute tried this - exercising a lot without increasing food intake quickly led to stagnation in training, problems with recovery, and more.

so while CICO is tautologically true in the sense that fat has to leave fat cells to lose fat, it is clearly false in the sense that simply manipulating CI or CO is a viable strategy to body composition.

[banker22]

Thanks Brute.

So what is a viable strategy?

[banker22]

@jacob

Do you still follow the warrior diet way? What does an average day look like for you?

[BRUTE]

depends on the individual. if it's working, it's working. if not, brute recommends looking at sleep -> stress -> diet -> exercise in that order. after that, good luck.

as mentioned, brute's plan revolves around not working once FIRE.

[Smashter]

- if you aren't happy with your body comp, why don't you add in a little more fasting?

see 1. brute has tried this - it does not work in current work circumstances. brute plans to FIRE and then lose the fat again. maybe a different job would be more suited, so if brute switches jobs before FIREing, he'll try again.

I think C40 said it best in a different thread.

I had visible abs most of the time ever since I started learning about nutrition around 20 years old. I was the leanest in my life while working, at age 30 - maybe as low as 5% bodyfat.

------------

If you think you are fat because you're working, you're doing some really lame mental gymnastics to pretend that you're not actively deciding to eat poorly. Just be honest with yourself.

[banker22]

@c40

What diet do / did you follow?

[BRUTE]

I think C40 said it best in a different thread.

If you think you are fat because you're working, you're doing some really lame mental gymnastics to pretend that you're not actively deciding to eat poorly. Just be honest with yourself.

*shrug*

well said, maybe. but it's not true.

[pammys]

What worked for me for weight loss was cutting out sugars/sweetners, then alternating between one meal a day and intermittent fasting. Lost 30lbs in a few months, now at weight I like. Maintenance now is still no sugars/sweetners, and eating real normal foods cooked at home lunch and dinner. It's not strict, I cheat sometimes with a treat, but not that often. Am in normal BMI range, female, upper 40's. Hardest part of any was getting used to coffee black and cutting occasional Coke treat. A summer benefit (which is a nice bonus) was in my semi fasting state I get cold easy, a bonus is this horrid heat.

[C40]

well said, maybe. but it's not true.

Not true in what way?

Obviously, working does not directly cause one to get get fat.

Do you not believe in free will even for what people chose to eat?

I do think that many work environments make it a bit more difficult to control what one eats. There is often shit food around or served at lunches and stuff. There is some depletion of 'decision energy' and reduction of 'willpower'. I still believe that with those, it takes only a moderate amount of motivation/prioritizing to eat well while working.

@c40

What diet do / did you follow?

Mostly meat and vegetables. (mostly chicken... no root/tuber veggies). Plus some fats from things like butter, olive oil, sardines, avocados. I weigh myself about each day in the morning, and if I'm not losing 2-3lbs per week, adjust food quantity and/or proportions. (If losing too quickly, eat more total and higher portion of meat/fat.. and if losing too slowly, the other way)

[banker22]

@c40 and that got you down to 5% bodyfat? Any fasting? How was meal frequency? Typical day of eating?

[C40]

Well, when I got down to 5% I was also bicycle racing which added a lot more complexity. (pretty high exercise amount and increase in food to make up for that, timing of high GI foods to replace muscle glycogen, etc..). These days I don't really go much below 10%. But yeah, I believe eating the way I described can get me (and most others) down to 5%.

I haven't played around with fasting or meal timing much but I've heard those can be effective. When cutting, I do time my meals in that I only eat when I'm hungry. During a time where I'm not very physically active, that can mean not eating much or anything for breakfast. (these days I do have one or two lattes in the morning, with milk, which I don't think helps in any way for weight loss)


Typical day of eating while losing weight:

1 - 4 eggs, half an avocado or some vegetables
2 - chicken, broccoli, cauliflower, butter
3 - chicken, broccoli, cauliflower, butter

In reality I'm not always that aggressive/strict and often add small amounts of rice or other filler, bananas, etc (especially if I'm really active at the time) But I think it works better to eat like above and probably be in ketosis.