The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

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Jean
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Jean »

Or maybe that we are burning floor to bake our pie faster, thus making the baking of futur pies much mor difficult.

ffj
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by ffj »

@7, Jacob

I understand how people work. It doesn't mean I have to have sympathy for them or validate their poor decision-making.

Regarding the proper use of your time or the proper allocation of your paycheck, yes, there are many inefficiencies regarding work, pay, and results. I'm sure your paycheck is derived from tax-payers which makes the inefficiencies even worse. I think most people though are on board with offering everyone a minimum set of opportunities for success, twelve years of free education being one of them. If you can't perform academically to a low standard after all of that teaching than it's not the schools fault, the opportunity was there. I understand not all all schools are created equally, but we seem to forget that it is the community that influences the quality of the school the most.

The problem is that once you start segregating students on ability and behavior to create the efficiencies you desire then all hell is going to break loose as you will probably start to see which ethnic groups value education and those that do not.

My solution to you, 7, is to continue to do the best you can in the public setting, and offer your expertise privately for the motivated students who want to perform better. I teach about three months out of the year so I have a little experience in that field. Within a day with my new batch of students, I can almost certainly tell who is going to succeed and who is going to really struggle without an attitude change, so on day one I set the standard of behavior for everyone with very little wiggle room, and guess what? everyone rises to that standard or they quit which is a win for me either way. The reason they shape up is because they have consequences if they don't perform, namely I will see that they are dismissed from the program. Now I understand the public school system works differently but without incentives I don't see how one maintains order in those types of settings.

ajcoleman22
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by ajcoleman22 »

So we need to care about income/wealth inequality because of faulty human reasoning?

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

In a different life I did some substitute teaching in a public school setting. I had no authority to set a standard. The children do what they want, and if the teacher tries to do anything disciplinary, the parent complains. By the time kids are in public school, it’s too late to remediate the reprehensible parenting jobs. You have kids cursing teachers, making noise, ignoring the lesson. It’s chaos. This was the same public school district I went thru as a student. The complete lack of discipline is certainly a cultural issue, not a budget issue. The extra tutoring or other advantages for wealthy children are not holding these kids back. Nor would extra funding be allocated wisely in these scenarios, unless it was towards shock therapy (I jest). It doesn’t cost money to sit up straight and fly right.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@ajcoleman22:

Basically. But correctly describing the problem doesn't make it disappear; people gonna people. Though, it would be nice if policy people could discuss it without the tortured moral posturing.

BRUTE
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by BRUTE »

abandon public school. it had its chance, it's mostly not working except for those humans who'd learn stuff even without it. a shocking percentage of humans who go through school learn basically nothing.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I tell my friends public school is a failure and their reaction is VIOLENT. Everything I learned is because I wanted to, I’m not thanking the public school curriculum. The idea that years are wasted in public school and we are just jumping thru hoops interferes too greatly with their conviction that society has the perfect plan for them and that their lives individually have gone exactly according to that plan. I guess that way, they are never accountable for how their lives turn out (in their minds). Because it was someone else’s design.

BRUTE
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by BRUTE »

statists are always violently offended when they hear criticism of the state.

brute thinks it would be interesting to see a system where school was completely voluntary, classes were more modular, and maybe cost (some) money - just to keep humans out of classes that don't actually want to learn those topics.

in a typical class when brute went to school, maybe 10% of the class would be the obvious top students in any given topic, maybe 50% would be able to use the instructions to adequately solve most of the sample problems (=passing grade), and the rest would just sit there, wasting their time.

now brute realizes that some topics are useful from time to time even if they're not super fun to learn, like arithmetic for not getting ripped of at the grocery store. but he can only imagine how far those math/physics nerds would've gotten in their school career if they had been in a class made up mostly of their peers. or where the bottom 30% would've ended up if they hadn't been made to waste their time in a topic they were completely uninterested in.

brute thinks this is maybe blasphemous, but it's better to become a plumber than reading Shakespeare if a human is not interested in reading Shakespeare. the same is true of all math and science beyond grade 7 or so.

jacob
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by jacob »

BRUTE wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:47 pm
brute thinks it would be interesting to see a system where school was completely voluntary, classes were more modular, and maybe cost (some) money - just to keep humans out of classes that don't actually want to learn those topics.
You mean college?

I once interviewed for a phd position where I was asked why I wanted to go to grad school. When I said it was because I wanted to teach people who were really interested in the subject and that I thought the only place that was possible was at the university, one professor couldn't help informing me how naive I was wrt random students. I later confirmed this when I was TA'ing undergraduate physics majors. Only about 30% were actually interested in those voluntary and self-selected modular classes that they paid [their own] money for. The other 70% were there because they needed "a degree" in order to get a job. So I guess, technically, it was only voluntary in spirit, not in application.

Of course, 30% is a lot better than the 5% found in high school (which is also voluntary, but free, and only somewhat modular).

Point being, it's impossible to create a system in a society that uses education for other reasons than learning (e.g. selling credentials or regulating the influx to the labor markets). In other words, "nature" finds a way.

BRUTE
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:13 pm
it's impossible to create a system in a society that uses education for other reasons than learning (e.g. selling credentials or regulating the influx to the labor markets).
maybe that's the crux. what is it that turns education into status seeking? something in the culture. it feels similar to consumer culture.

Campitor
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Campitor »

In other words, "nature" finds a way.
My sentiments exactly. Those who want to be rich will be rich and those who want to engage in other pursuits, that may or may not be beneficial to their desired income strata, will find a way. If you live in a western democracy, you’ve already hit the lottery. ;)

7Wannabe5
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Yeah, what's the point of working towards universal literacy now that we got youtube and poop emoticons.

jacob
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by jacob »

@7 - And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqX4oYZA5aQ

Fun fact: The actual/adult cash registry requires less numeracy than the toy model.

Campitor
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Campitor »

https://youtu.be/A3oIiH7BLmg

Psychologist Professor Philip Zimbardo explains how our individual perspectives of time affect our work, health and well-being. May explain some of what motivates the 9%, students, and the poor.

BRUTE
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by BRUTE »

is this the same Zimbardo who faked the Stanford Prison experiment?

Riggerjack
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, what's the point of working towards universal literacy now that we got youtube and poop emoticons.
Oh. Were we working on universal literacy? How can you tell? :lol:

Graduation rates dropping. Graduation requirements dropping. California university system dropped the Algebra requirement for Bachelor's of Science degrees, because high school math is beyond what they are capable of teaching to their students. Which of the trends that led to here were supposed to bring us universal literacy? And should we just keep going down this path that has led us here?

Don't get me wrong, good intentions are nice, and appreciated. But they are no substitute for a working system.

Jason
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Jason »

The whole concept of literacy now escapes me. A formalized system of spelling words wrong seems to have developed and proliferated, as though there is now a standardized way to be illiterate i.e. you can be ostracized for spelling a word wrongly if it does not comport to the generally accepted way of spelling it wrong. It' a weird deconstructive event. When I try to follow the comments section on an instragram or twitter post I can't understand it because I'm not properly literate in the new illiteracy as it seems that people are actually communicating and understanding one another in some hybrid English. This is not like jazz improvisation where you have to learn the rules to break them. These are people who never learned the rules making rules. You need someone like Derrida to explain this shit.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

You need someone like Derrida to *try* to justify this shit.*

Although some bellyfeel the new lingo to be doubleplusgood.

Jason
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Jason »

I had a college professor who tested his microphone by reciting Lewis Caroll from heart and I used to think why not just wear a sign that says "Did not touch a bare tit until a Post-Doc" but I knew it came from a genuine love of language. And obviously, no one is going to confuse me with John Fucking Houseman. But I don't see that here. It's come to a point where I'm seeing English letters but reading a foreign language. It's not playful, or creative or fun or witty. Maybe someone will say it's impressionistic, that between the letters and emojis and punctuation a sentiment is being communicated. I'm not a linguist but it seems like a technological version of hieroglyphics and I'm pretty certain that's at least a few etymological steps in the wrong direction.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

So either Jason is too old/square/unhip to get it, or he is a bulwark for high culture defending against the dismal tide of Philistinism. In your younger headier days, could you have thought you would become the latter?

The silver lining in a culture that caters to the lowest common denominator is that an artist who is courageous enough to thigmotropically channel high thoughts around the banality of everyday life à la Shakespeare may really have the chance to shine, because he is at least different. Speaking of bare tits, that reminds me of when a Brazilian woman whispered something into my ear in her (actual) foreign tongue. I could only smile and reply “Language is the house of being.” She was titillated, if only because what I said was novel to her.

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