I'm kind of expecting many people here have the same approach towards Real Estate as I do...
...I have time, and am not in a rush...
...I'm open to a wide range of properties and areas...
...I know the negatives I won't accept, but many of them can't be determined from a listing...
...I'm looking for very low priced houses (<$100k).
That combination has to be a Real Estate agent's nightmare. I'm wondering what people's experiences have been. I wonder if an agent would be helpful after the 15th house when they are looking at a $2500 commission. I almost wonder if it would be better to contact the listing agents.
Just curious... and fwiw, I'm talking about areas where the median house would be in the mid $200's... not especially depressed, even though down somewhat.
Real Estate Bargain hunting with Agents
If you can get a copy of your locality Multi-List, that will have a lot of the information you otherwise would need to get from an agent. You can then just drive by the houses and rule them out visually or whatever negatives you are going by.
I never deal with an agent unless I am deadly serious about a purchase. In other words, I don't call one up just to see a house. I have bought and sold a few houses in the last ten years, and I have made a little money. I try to avoid any contact with the "Realtwhores". These people (who actually are only just people) made a very bad name for themselves and gave up their professional status (IMHO) during the period 1998-2007. They were selling $300,000 homes to dead cats. A real estate agent should show much more professionalism than they actually do. I have actually seen two prospective buyers have a fist fight when they both arrived at one of my houses invited by the realtwhores at the same hour. Enough of that.
So I would do my own looking and if there is no recourse, I would nail the real estate agent down to getting me the lowest possible offer in, and if your in no hurry, I would make it clear who was boss, and I would not hesitate to walk.
If you can get to know your local banker on a first name basis, you can "deal out" the Realtwhore entirely.
I never deal with an agent unless I am deadly serious about a purchase. In other words, I don't call one up just to see a house. I have bought and sold a few houses in the last ten years, and I have made a little money. I try to avoid any contact with the "Realtwhores". These people (who actually are only just people) made a very bad name for themselves and gave up their professional status (IMHO) during the period 1998-2007. They were selling $300,000 homes to dead cats. A real estate agent should show much more professionalism than they actually do. I have actually seen two prospective buyers have a fist fight when they both arrived at one of my houses invited by the realtwhores at the same hour. Enough of that.
So I would do my own looking and if there is no recourse, I would nail the real estate agent down to getting me the lowest possible offer in, and if your in no hurry, I would make it clear who was boss, and I would not hesitate to walk.
If you can get to know your local banker on a first name basis, you can "deal out" the Realtwhore entirely.
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
When I'm looking for property in Oregon/Washington, I use rmls.com. Realtor.com gives a national view. Used to be I had a few other sites listed, but these days those are adequate for me.
Run a query, weed out the results, do a drive-by on my own, and, if I'm still interested in a property, then I call one of two friends who are realtors to get an inside look and check the details. They're comfortable with this arrangement and, when I let them know when I'm fairly serious, will even feed me new listings meeting the criteria. They know they don't have to push the deal of the week on me, so it's a clean & professional relationship when it comes to the business.
One of the friends has been a realtor since late '80s. The other picked 2007 to change his career (doh!) and has done well despite the poor timing. They've both been friends since well before becoming realtors, so the trust is earned.
Run a query, weed out the results, do a drive-by on my own, and, if I'm still interested in a property, then I call one of two friends who are realtors to get an inside look and check the details. They're comfortable with this arrangement and, when I let them know when I'm fairly serious, will even feed me new listings meeting the criteria. They know they don't have to push the deal of the week on me, so it's a clean & professional relationship when it comes to the business.
One of the friends has been a realtor since late '80s. The other picked 2007 to change his career (doh!) and has done well despite the poor timing. They've both been friends since well before becoming realtors, so the trust is earned.
I use a real estate agent for the same reason I use a CPA to do my taxes and a lawyer to set up my LLCs: the professional can do it faster, more efficiently, and better. Things I'm especially interested in when it comes to legal matters.
Having read 6 or 7 real estate books now, I'm confident I could do it myself. The few thousand I pay my realtor though is well worth the money in the amount of time and effort she saves me, as well as peace of mind of having it done right.
Same reason I pay a few hundred dollars to a good home inspector I know: I can check a lot of it myself, but I want it done right.
In any case, with her expertise and tactics, I'd bet that my realtor has saved me more money than the fees I've paid her. Ditto the CPA.
The lawyer hasn't paid for himself yet, but the liability protection might someday.
I have gone through a number of realtors (4 total now, purchasing houses with 3 of them), but the latest one has done my last two transactions and one currently in process and has been well worth it.
YMMV.
Having read 6 or 7 real estate books now, I'm confident I could do it myself. The few thousand I pay my realtor though is well worth the money in the amount of time and effort she saves me, as well as peace of mind of having it done right.
Same reason I pay a few hundred dollars to a good home inspector I know: I can check a lot of it myself, but I want it done right.
In any case, with her expertise and tactics, I'd bet that my realtor has saved me more money than the fees I've paid her. Ditto the CPA.
The lawyer hasn't paid for himself yet, but the liability protection might someday.
I have gone through a number of realtors (4 total now, purchasing houses with 3 of them), but the latest one has done my last two transactions and one currently in process and has been well worth it.
YMMV.
I like to deal only with the listing agent. If there is a property I like on the MLS I will contact the listing agent and have them show it to me and write up the offer. That way if my offer is successful they get a double commission. They are privy to the other offer amounts and usually can offer a "suggestion" as to what my offer should be.
I know that it works because once I had made an offer on a property that was still being negotiated with the seller. My agent told me there was another party who wished to make an offer but he wasn't going to present it to the seller until they had accepted or rejected my counter offer. Pretty sure that is unethical on his part, but being on the other side before I didn't feel bad about it.
I know that it works because once I had made an offer on a property that was still being negotiated with the seller. My agent told me there was another party who wished to make an offer but he wasn't going to present it to the seller until they had accepted or rejected my counter offer. Pretty sure that is unethical on his part, but being on the other side before I didn't feel bad about it.
If you haven't read it already, watch the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jO_w6f8Ck
And the original book's idea re-visited.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/02/26/ ... revisited/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jO_w6f8Ck
And the original book's idea re-visited.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/02/26/ ... revisited/
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Okay, in my experience, one does need to look at buying and selling as two different problems.
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Buying means that you need access to a list of the available properties that meet your criteria (location, size, features, and price). The best database to search is the multiple listings service in the area that you're shopping in because you can filter & sort the results by your criteria. One can look on craigslist or in the newspaper, but neither have good features for filtering & sorting, so they are secondary sources for most people. [If you don't have a listing service available, then you do what Bigato did and ask around about available properties which can take far longer.]
With buying, one is also competing with other buyers and trying very hard not to waste money in the purchase price due to unknown property conditions. Appraisers and home inspectors can only get you in the ballpark even when they're honest -- YOU have to be comfortable with the transaction and it is likely the biggest transaction you'll make in your life.
A buyers agent gets the commission from the seller, not from you. An agent who is both a buying and selling agent will try to sell you the house that they listed, sometimes being very pushy. That's why I do my own searching and use a realtor (friend) that I'm already comfortable with; they don't feel like they're wasting time and they're not going to try selling me something I don't want.
***
Selling a house requires marketing. In my opinion, craigslist and newspapers are the half-hearted method of marketing. The biggest market is in the local multiple listings service. There are FSBO (for sale by owner) services that can put your listing there, so an agent isn't strictly needed.
An agent's marketing efforts shouldn't end with the listing, however. Usually they'll show the house to other agents on a weekly tour. This is a marketing tool you won't have when you FSBO.
Once it is listed, then you have the problem of showing the property. The agent usually has more time available to ensure the showing happens. It isn't a good idea to show your own property because, unless you're rather unusual, you'll have reactions that can sour a deal while the potential buyer is examining it.
Yes, 6% commission to sell is nearly criminal. In a hot sellers market, then it probably is better to FSBO. Hopefully, in a slow market, your agent has worked hard to set the listing price and marketed (networked) with the right agents to get it in front of the best buyer so that you get the best price.
***
Should I sell our current house, I'll probably list it with one of my friends as he specializes in "homes for cars". Since I have a 1500 sq ft workshop, it's very likely he would score a double commission. That would be okay with me because he very likely will have earned it since he's built the network that's most important for selling a property that's somewhat specialized.
***
Buying means that you need access to a list of the available properties that meet your criteria (location, size, features, and price). The best database to search is the multiple listings service in the area that you're shopping in because you can filter & sort the results by your criteria. One can look on craigslist or in the newspaper, but neither have good features for filtering & sorting, so they are secondary sources for most people. [If you don't have a listing service available, then you do what Bigato did and ask around about available properties which can take far longer.]
With buying, one is also competing with other buyers and trying very hard not to waste money in the purchase price due to unknown property conditions. Appraisers and home inspectors can only get you in the ballpark even when they're honest -- YOU have to be comfortable with the transaction and it is likely the biggest transaction you'll make in your life.
A buyers agent gets the commission from the seller, not from you. An agent who is both a buying and selling agent will try to sell you the house that they listed, sometimes being very pushy. That's why I do my own searching and use a realtor (friend) that I'm already comfortable with; they don't feel like they're wasting time and they're not going to try selling me something I don't want.
***
Selling a house requires marketing. In my opinion, craigslist and newspapers are the half-hearted method of marketing. The biggest market is in the local multiple listings service. There are FSBO (for sale by owner) services that can put your listing there, so an agent isn't strictly needed.
An agent's marketing efforts shouldn't end with the listing, however. Usually they'll show the house to other agents on a weekly tour. This is a marketing tool you won't have when you FSBO.
Once it is listed, then you have the problem of showing the property. The agent usually has more time available to ensure the showing happens. It isn't a good idea to show your own property because, unless you're rather unusual, you'll have reactions that can sour a deal while the potential buyer is examining it.
Yes, 6% commission to sell is nearly criminal. In a hot sellers market, then it probably is better to FSBO. Hopefully, in a slow market, your agent has worked hard to set the listing price and marketed (networked) with the right agents to get it in front of the best buyer so that you get the best price.
***
Should I sell our current house, I'll probably list it with one of my friends as he specializes in "homes for cars". Since I have a 1500 sq ft workshop, it's very likely he would score a double commission. That would be okay with me because he very likely will have earned it since he's built the network that's most important for selling a property that's somewhat specialized.
I have actually been taking that strategy that HSpencer and George recommend (and I share the disdain for the Realtor profession). I'll drive by places, and luckily in my price range, nothing is typically occupied, so I'm able to at least look in windows (in this price range, they often just have a single exterior picture in the listing). Some places have even been open and I've been able to look around a bit. The few that I have looked at, however, have really disappointed once inside. I'm just wary that may be the norm rather than the exception, and it could take a while to find a place. I suppose I shouldn't worry about it until it becomes a problem.
Craigslist is nice, but I don't find a lot of listings there, and I don't believe (in my area at least) the banks list the foreclosures there. I'd probably give it a shot if I were selling (although I did use an agent a few years back when I sold my previous house).
@AlexK - That is extremely unethical on the part of the agent. They should be flogged! Not your fault though.
Craigslist is nice, but I don't find a lot of listings there, and I don't believe (in my area at least) the banks list the foreclosures there. I'd probably give it a shot if I were selling (although I did use an agent a few years back when I sold my previous house).
@AlexK - That is extremely unethical on the part of the agent. They should be flogged! Not your fault though.
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Riggerjack
- Posts: 3199
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am
let me tell you my own experiences with agents, and let you decide.
The first house i bought, was in 2001. i'd already exhausted the first agent, as i was going VA loan, and needed to fix my credit a bit. she was trying so hard to be "nice" that we never got anywhere.
so, i fixed my credit issues, looked around for about a year, looked into historical interest rates etc.
at one of the houses we looked at, i ran into an aquaintance who was already working a deal on the property. he was happy with his agent, so i wanted to deal with him. enter William from Windem**e.
we searched the MLS, found a house we liked, checkeed it out, and wanted a look inside so we call william. 2 days later, we got inside, the bank was about to foreclose, and there was too much damage for the VA to approve the loan. Not that william told us anything about that, he was off still digging up comps until after the foreclosure, and he didn't know the VA loan req.
next, we find a house we like, but the owners say it's already sold. that was thursday. sunday night, we got a call from their agent and she said it wasn't sold, they'd simply made a counter offer that wasn't accepted yet.
so we make arrangements to see the place one more time, this time with william. there is a scheduling snafu, and the sellers come home just as we walk inside. we still like the house, and step outside to talk to william. we agree on an offer, and go ask the seller to call up his agent, let's hammer out a deal. i was new enough that i didn't understand the offer counter offer process. their agent couldn't make it, but we all stood around in the kitchen, working out a deal, w/ william writing it up as we talked. we signed, they signed, everyone is happy. william's never seen such a quick deal, blah blah.
that was the last time i ever saw william. i work out a deal with a mortgage broker, get him the paperwork, can't reach william, so i meet the inspector on my own, he finds some little stuff, seller agrees to fix, all is still well. va appraiser comes and goes.
we are now a week into my 30 day offer. i can't reach my agent, or my mortgage agent. but if there's a problem, they'd let me know, right?
it's a week before closing, and i get a call from marianne, from Windem**e. "william is no longer with us, but my name is marianne, and i'm here to see that your deal goes thru smoothly."
i meet marianne, and she's concerned that she can't reach the mortgage broker. and she suggests "someone real good at fast work". so, now i'm applying to a new mortgage broker, extending the closing date, and all is well. i meet the new broker, and he thinks rates will go down, we should float. so, rather than lock a 7% i float. for a week, when we now need to lock to close. rates are now down to 7.25%. damn. (i looked at historical records of MBS the securities that determine mortgage pricing, strangely enough, there is no big change that week. so it seems the rates only went up that week for me.) on the way out, i meet marianne, it seems she's going to start at that broker as a broker's agent that week. wow, that's a strange coincedence.
so, i'm supposed to close on monday, and i get a call from Patty, at Windem**e on sunday afternoon, "Marianne is no longer with us, and i just want you to know i'm here to make sure your deal goes smoothly."
the next property i bought, i looked at it, and wanted to buy before meeting the seller and her agent onsite.
again, i surprised them with my desire to get a deal done. we went back to the seller's agent's office to find some comps. i'd done my research and when she can up with crazy high comps, i pulled out a full page list from the other end of the spectrum. after we drew up the deal, with the buyer in the other room, because the whole idea of 2 principles working out a deal was freaking the agents out, we could hear the agents talking the seller into selling at my price. she paid them, but they were both working for me. their only loyalty was to getting a check when a deal closed. i could get bent, she could get bent, whatever, so long as the deal closes.
next, i bought a lot from the same seller. no agents. a better price, and everything was easier. i got a form online, checked with the county, we met at the county courthouse, did the paperwork, and i gave her the cashier's check. by far the best way to go.
Realtors are complete wastes of flesh, can't be trusted as far as they can be thrown. However, their cost is built into the deal, so just see how much of that cost you can recoup.
in my experience, the only fully competent people i've met in any facet of real estate are the escrow/title people. consistently competent, and getting things done on time. it's actually surprising considering how low the standards are for realtors and mortgage brokers, and they deal with such people day in and day out.
if redfin.com is available where you are, i'd recommend them. not that they will be anymore competent, but because they will kickback part of their fee.
failing that, i'd explain to your buyer's agent that you are a deal buyer, who is all about the price, and you won't waste his time driving around and around looking, and looking. that you will go our to prescreen properties on your own, only calling him/her when you are serious about a property. and you want them to cover title insurance out of their commision.
or maybe you'll have a smooth transaction and everyone will be competent, maintaining their actual duties, like pros, but don't count on it.
The first house i bought, was in 2001. i'd already exhausted the first agent, as i was going VA loan, and needed to fix my credit a bit. she was trying so hard to be "nice" that we never got anywhere.
so, i fixed my credit issues, looked around for about a year, looked into historical interest rates etc.
at one of the houses we looked at, i ran into an aquaintance who was already working a deal on the property. he was happy with his agent, so i wanted to deal with him. enter William from Windem**e.
we searched the MLS, found a house we liked, checkeed it out, and wanted a look inside so we call william. 2 days later, we got inside, the bank was about to foreclose, and there was too much damage for the VA to approve the loan. Not that william told us anything about that, he was off still digging up comps until after the foreclosure, and he didn't know the VA loan req.
next, we find a house we like, but the owners say it's already sold. that was thursday. sunday night, we got a call from their agent and she said it wasn't sold, they'd simply made a counter offer that wasn't accepted yet.
so we make arrangements to see the place one more time, this time with william. there is a scheduling snafu, and the sellers come home just as we walk inside. we still like the house, and step outside to talk to william. we agree on an offer, and go ask the seller to call up his agent, let's hammer out a deal. i was new enough that i didn't understand the offer counter offer process. their agent couldn't make it, but we all stood around in the kitchen, working out a deal, w/ william writing it up as we talked. we signed, they signed, everyone is happy. william's never seen such a quick deal, blah blah.
that was the last time i ever saw william. i work out a deal with a mortgage broker, get him the paperwork, can't reach william, so i meet the inspector on my own, he finds some little stuff, seller agrees to fix, all is still well. va appraiser comes and goes.
we are now a week into my 30 day offer. i can't reach my agent, or my mortgage agent. but if there's a problem, they'd let me know, right?
it's a week before closing, and i get a call from marianne, from Windem**e. "william is no longer with us, but my name is marianne, and i'm here to see that your deal goes thru smoothly."
i meet marianne, and she's concerned that she can't reach the mortgage broker. and she suggests "someone real good at fast work". so, now i'm applying to a new mortgage broker, extending the closing date, and all is well. i meet the new broker, and he thinks rates will go down, we should float. so, rather than lock a 7% i float. for a week, when we now need to lock to close. rates are now down to 7.25%. damn. (i looked at historical records of MBS the securities that determine mortgage pricing, strangely enough, there is no big change that week. so it seems the rates only went up that week for me.) on the way out, i meet marianne, it seems she's going to start at that broker as a broker's agent that week. wow, that's a strange coincedence.
so, i'm supposed to close on monday, and i get a call from Patty, at Windem**e on sunday afternoon, "Marianne is no longer with us, and i just want you to know i'm here to make sure your deal goes smoothly."
the next property i bought, i looked at it, and wanted to buy before meeting the seller and her agent onsite.
again, i surprised them with my desire to get a deal done. we went back to the seller's agent's office to find some comps. i'd done my research and when she can up with crazy high comps, i pulled out a full page list from the other end of the spectrum. after we drew up the deal, with the buyer in the other room, because the whole idea of 2 principles working out a deal was freaking the agents out, we could hear the agents talking the seller into selling at my price. she paid them, but they were both working for me. their only loyalty was to getting a check when a deal closed. i could get bent, she could get bent, whatever, so long as the deal closes.
next, i bought a lot from the same seller. no agents. a better price, and everything was easier. i got a form online, checked with the county, we met at the county courthouse, did the paperwork, and i gave her the cashier's check. by far the best way to go.
Realtors are complete wastes of flesh, can't be trusted as far as they can be thrown. However, their cost is built into the deal, so just see how much of that cost you can recoup.
in my experience, the only fully competent people i've met in any facet of real estate are the escrow/title people. consistently competent, and getting things done on time. it's actually surprising considering how low the standards are for realtors and mortgage brokers, and they deal with such people day in and day out.
if redfin.com is available where you are, i'd recommend them. not that they will be anymore competent, but because they will kickback part of their fee.
failing that, i'd explain to your buyer's agent that you are a deal buyer, who is all about the price, and you won't waste his time driving around and around looking, and looking. that you will go our to prescreen properties on your own, only calling him/her when you are serious about a property. and you want them to cover title insurance out of their commision.
or maybe you'll have a smooth transaction and everyone will be competent, maintaining their actual duties, like pros, but don't count on it.
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Riggerjack
- Posts: 3199
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am
oh, and i do more extensive searches online. from your price range, i'm guessing a fairly suburban area. check the county website. in particular, the assessor and auditor. the assessor often has previous valuations and sales, and sometimes a picture. the auditor will have a recording division. you can look up liens, sales, and financing history. this will help you prescreen and save gas. good luck.