Political correctness run amok

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:34 am

BRUTE is correct in stating that hurt feelings are important. I don't think Hitler was made happy by his art school failure. Stefan Zweig's "Beware of Pity" is my novel recommendation. Everybody needs to stop watching the news, stop thinking in terms of statistics, and start reading some novels written in previous eras by other intelligent humans. Complex human social patterns can't be explained with simple models. Stating that somebody is "like a Nazi" is like stating that a torus is like a donut, with "mean or aggressive towards other humans" being the hole.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:37 am

@7Wannabe5: I'm sure Hitler was quite unhappy about many things, including his own loserdom, which drove him to find a scapegoat for the loserdom of himself and everyone else in economically cratered Germany. He found that scapegoat in imaginary Jewish persecution.

I don't dispute that our new Nazis are unhappy. I don't dispute that they're losers. I don't dispute that they feel a sense of imaginary persecution. I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.

Like I said, it's funny how closely Brute and I seem to agree, only to miss that crucial point, which takes us in opposite directions.

What bothers me as a "PC Nazi" is that it doesn't seem to matter to the real Nazis that their persecution is fake. Yet that persecution is the keystone that justifies their entire ideology.

And how do you shake them out of it when pointing out the falseness of the persecution is seen as more persecution? It's not that this doesn't concern me "as long as I get to feel righteous". It's more that I don't really know any other way to change minds except to point out fallacious thinking. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for us "PC Nazis" who are still desperately trying to dissuade the real Nazis with reasoning. Ironically, Brute says this just drives them deeper into their ideology. If this is the result of peaceful reasoning, no wonder many are ready to abandon peaceful methods altogether.

User avatar
C40
Posts: 2305
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:04 am

(eh, I'm not sure this adds anything, so I'm clearing it out)

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 am

Spartan_Warrior wrote: I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.
Well, persecution is certainly not the right word, but something is going on. It's important to remember that novel properties emerge at greater levels of systemic complexity. The whole is more than the sum of the parts. For instance, a patriarchy is more than a collection of patriarchs.

Bit of an over-simplification, but I would say that much of the frustration (or sense of persecution) is due to finding themselves in a position of "responsibility without authority." A conservative black man (claimed to like the character of Archie Bunker because he laid it on the line) I used to date, once told me that successful black men want to marry white women, because the black women were already married to white men. Those white men being Uncle Sam and White Jesus. IOW, the charity and social support available through religious affiliation and the financial support available through government enforced welfare and affirmative action (black females being favored as tokens over black men because less threatening) had subverted the ability of black men to achieve or maintain moral or practical authority as heads of their households. He also raised both of his sons from different mothers (one black, one white) whom he never married as a single father, spending around $50,000 in battle to obtain custody of one of them. IOW, he was as rigid and vigilant as Harry Browne in not taking responsibility where he could not exert authority, and thereby maintaining his freedom, but he chose the route of more authority, rather than less responsibility, in relationship to his children.

Jacob and I once shared a humorous exchange on the topic of whether I should take personal responsibility for doing enough push-ups so that I could pull myself up on to a rooftop with my own strength in an emergency situation vs. my suggestion of primitive strategy of trading ass for upper-body strength with a male partner. My Iranian-American ex was very concerned that we might on some occasion be violently assaulted by an individual who did not like seeing a white woman with a green man. So, he taught me some self-defense skills, but his number one thing was that I had to immediately follow his instructions in such a situation. IOW, he wanted to take on more of the responsibility for our safety in such a situation, but I had to grant him the authority.

What strikes me is the similarity of the complaints or frustrations I hear, or the stresses I simply witness, in the young alt-right swinging men and the older, often recently divorced, men that I date. Simplistic way of explaining it would be slow bleed at the juncture of chivalry and feminism.

The Old Man
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by The Old Man » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:06 am

https://youtu.be/gwSYhTWk6E8

Weimar Germany in America!
Frankly, this has to be the best video I have come across that describes the forces at work. It strongly supports Brute's assertion that the rise of the alt-right is a direct result of the actions of the extreme left.

distracted_at_work
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:51 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by distracted_at_work » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 am

(God help me for continuing in this discussion but.. )

Is there not serious hypocrisy in silencing someone based on class, ethnicity or gender? But then turning around and saying X person has the appropriate mix, let's hear what they have to say? Then turning around and saying one is pro-equality? That's what pisses me off. Equality should be for everyone, no one should be more equal than others.

@Spartan. I'm mad someone, who I previously thought was reasonable, told me to shut up because of my skin color and gender. This was especially confusing to me as she shares that lack of pigment. Ultimately our goals are the same, to be respectful of others. Identity politics created a divide where there should be none. It is absolute vile garbage.

If that's hurt feelings in your mind so be it. I'm hurt that this bullshit is invading the minds my friends.
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:37 am
I don't dispute that they feel a sense of imaginary persecution. I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.
It doesn't matter if the persecution is imaginary or not ...
General Snoopy wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:06 am
It strongly supports Brute's assertion that the rise of the alt-right is a direct result of the actions of the extreme left.
I would strongly agree with this.

BRUTE
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:47 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 am
Bit of an over-simplification, but I would say that much of the frustration (or sense of persecution) is due to finding themselves in a position of "responsibility without authority."
wow, this is a great way of thinking about the issue. tbh, brute hadn't really thought about the whole "hurt feelings of whites" dynamic much because, well, for him it's really just hurt feelings. brute's doing fine.

the cultural norm is to pick on white men, make fun of them, because after all, "they can take it because they're the CEOs, presidents, etc". and to blame all of society's ills on them (racism, sexism), because "they're in power".

if someone like Rex Tillerson or Mitt Romney complained about this, it would really be over hurt feelings. both are doing fine. they have authority, so they can take responsibility.

but many white men are (for whatever other reasons) at the bottom of the food chain in this country. they have absolutely no authority, they didn't cause anything, and they couldn't fix anything. they are probably painfully aware of this.

now when the SJWs yell and blanket-blame all white men and demand for them to fix it, this group likely feels a very intense responsibility/authority mismatch. this could drive them to seek refuge in "white identity".

for reference, brute feels the same way when Bill Maher or Sam Harris demand that moderate muslims are in part responsible for the actions of violent extreme muslims. if brute were a muslim, he'd laugh at this. there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. expecting a random member of this group to take responsibility for others in the group is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to blame modern whites for black slavery 150 years ago, or to ask white humans to take responsibility for white supremacists. no, not all humans who have been stuffed in the same category by someone are therefore responsible for each other or have authority over each other.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:05 pm

BRUTE wrote:the cultural norm is to pick on white men, make fun of them, because after all, "they can take it because they're the CEOs, presidents, etc". and to blame all of society's ills on them (racism, sexism), because "they're in power".

if someone like Rex Tillerson or Mitt Romney complained about this, it would really be over hurt feelings. both are doing fine. they have authority, so they can take responsibility.
You might be surprised how far up the food chain this imbalance of responsibility vs. authority goes. I keep noticing how relatively free I am, with my tiny little lifestyle, compared to many of the very conventionally successful, climbed the ladder, did all or most of the right things, men I date. It's not like they are drowning in debt, or anything like that either, more like totally weighed down with responsibilities and expectations, and not likely to be receiving much, if any, respect or appreciation in exchange. I'm kind of surprised that more of them don't just say "Fuck this noise", and then run off to Tahiti to paint teenage girls. I feel sorry for the grouchy old things.

I'm an advocate of reduced work week for everyone, but what does everybody who envies or points to the power held by old white men think would happen if they all just quit their jobs or abdicated their positions tomorrow?

GandK
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by GandK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:41 pm

@7w5 I'm not convinced there's any thinking going on.

BRUTE
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:26 pm

who is john galt?^^

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:30 am

6 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The smallest living human grouping with a unique sense of self is the individual. The smallest living human grouping with the ability to reproduce is the sexual dyad. IOW, somebody is going to have provide support for all the big-headed wobble-neck babies. Can't shrug off that problem and still have a sustainable system.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:12 am

"who is john galt?^^ "

We could also answer the question of what would happen if the capitalists left their positions by looking to reality instead of libertarian wank fiction.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/how-c ... ry-workers

James_0011
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:00 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by James_0011 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:29 am

@7w5

Why do we need babies?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:05 am

@James_0011:

To survive as an individual you do not need a baby. To survive as a species we need babies. I am currently reading a book that explains how sexual reproduction is related to non-linear dynamics. It has to do with the discharge of waste from an open system in an energy state away from equilibrium. Human beings eat food which is highly organized and then they excrete waste which is less organized, thereby keeping themselves in a dynamic state away from the equilibrium which the second law of thermodynamics would impose on a closed system. Eventually a human being reaches a size and level of complexity that makes the emergent property of sexual reproduction possible. Then the human being's structure will be altered in a manner that will cause it to engage in a cognition of environment known as mating. Eventually that human being will be no longer able to maintain the ability to self-organize structure or engage in cognition of environment and a process known as death, or end of self will occur, but it will remain statistically likely that the other human beings that resulted from the mating(s) of that human being will continue to eat organized matter and excrete disorganized matter in dynamic, creative rebellion against the entropic arrow of time.

Riggerjack
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 pm

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.
I had a longer, drawn out post over in the white supremacy run amok thread, but quite rightfully, some of our best are no longer posting over there.

Since it is relevant here, and I really am looking for an answer that doesn't confirm my already negative suspicions, I am posting this here.

Peanut
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:18 pm

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Peanut » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:02 pm

I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.

As for class and/or/vs race the intersectionality of identities isn't unimportant. I was just reading about incarceration from the 70s in the war on drugs. Use is pretty consistent across demographics but the meting out of punishment has not been. Now the rural (white) opioid crisis gets a lot of attention and the discourse is about prevention and treatment, which is great, but seems hypocritical to many observers who saw crack abuse so demonized in the culture at large.

I do think colleges would do well to rework affirmative-action type policies to prioritize socioeconomic diversity. As the chart suggests, racial diversity would simultaneously be addressed to a significant degree.

Campitor
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Campitor » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:09 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 pm

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.

I had a longer, drawn out post over in the white supremacy run amok thread, but quite rightfully, some of our best are no longer posting over there.

Since it is relevant here, and I really am looking for an answer that doesn't confirm my already negative suspicions, I am posting this here.
Because race is the easiest means of identification at a visual level, people are most apt to draw incorrect conclusions in regards to correlation similar to someone who sits on their stoop all day and constantly sees people in red shirts tripping on a crack in the sidewalk. Being Black, White, Latino, etc., doesn't predispose someone to misery or success in life anymore than a red shirt predisposes someone to tripping on sidewalk cracks.

The reasons for poverty are many and complex:
  • Low skilled labor has been replaced by automation or sourced internationally.
  • Constant influx of low skilled immigrants competing for the remaining low skilled jobs.
  • The constant rise of minimum wage which suppresses hiring and encourages automation.
  • The culture of poverty and its crab mentality that is quick to ostracize anyone trying to move vertically.
There is so much more to add to this list. Trying to solve just one of these issues is hard and the solutions would most likely be debated aggressively with any solution most likely costing someone something. It's much easier to conjure a racial boogie-man and call it a day - this status quo is much easier to accept and allows people to maintain the incorrect narrative they have accepted without question or analysis - too much cognitive dissonance for the mind to take.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1680
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:58 am

Peanut wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:02 pm
I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.

As for class and/or/vs race the intersectionality of identities isn't unimportant. I was just reading about incarceration from the 70s in the war on drugs. Use is pretty consistent across demographics but the meting out of punishment has not been. Now the rural (white) opioid crisis gets a lot of attention and the discourse is about prevention and treatment, which is great, but seems hypocritical to many observers who saw crack abuse so demonized in the culture at large.

I do think colleges would do well to rework affirmative-action type policies to prioritize socioeconomic diversity. As the chart suggests, racial diversity would simultaneously be addressed to a significant degree.
Great point, but be careful. This is not politically correct discussion for this forum.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:05 am

Peanut wrote:I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.
I think a study that asks a question like that is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. What if the two names were Tammy Sue and Aliya? Or Oprah Winfrey and Eliza Doolittle? When I volunteered as a parent-helper in my daughter's rural-location kindergarten, I noticed that all of the most poorly behaved children were boys whose parents had given them cowboy names like Dustin or Cody. The name Lakisha doesn't just signal "black", it signals "low income inner-city black", and more crucially "low income inner-city black female whose parents chose a name with that signal." A white child whose parents chose to name him Cody is more likely to shout expletives in a kindergarten class than a black child whose parents chose to name him Tyler or Bilal.

What happens in a rural kindergarten when a white child named Cody shouts expletives is that the old-school heavy-set woman in her 60s teacher sits the kids in a circle and says "We all heard what Cody said. Most of us know that we do not say words like that in school. Most of us know that we do not say words like that anywhere we want to have friends. Cody does not know this yet, because Cody's parents say words like that too, and they did not teach him to not say words like that. So, we are all going to have to help Cody learn to not say words like that in school. Raise your hand if you understand." And, of course, Tyler's black grandmother says similar things to him when you inform her of his misbehavior, and she can see that you are a fair-minded person trying to do a job. She tells Tyler "You know better than that. I taught you better than that." Lakisha's mother doesn't show up for the conference. Lakisha's little brother falls asleep on his desk burning up with a fever and nobody comes to pick him up. Cody is out of school for 4 months because he was mauled by a pit bull while his parents were stoned on alcohol and downers.

Campitor
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Campitor » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:59 am

Women were incorrectly barred from orchestras because of chauvinistic ideas regarding female attributes; men incorrectly and stupidly assumed that women lacked the stamina and strength to play an instrument at the same level as men. Even after studies debunked these prejudiced fallacies, women were still woefully underrepresented in orchestras. So some orchestra's started conducting blind auditions. Musicians were assigned numbers and performed behind a curtain that would prevent them from being seen; this practice led to a vastly increased hiring of women into the Orchestra. Perhaps its time for other professions to follow a similar model in order to guarantee that the best candidate is hired regardless of sex, race, or ethnicity.

The names Cody and Lakisha being predisposed to certain behaviors is similar to the Red Shirt fallacy I wrote about earlier. In a culture where red shirts are popular, red shirt wearers will be statistically over-represented in all categories and events. A red shirt will not increase the chances of fitting into any categories or increase the likelihood of an occurrence anymore than wearing a white shirt will lessen the occurrence of a statistically greater probability.

Post Reply