ERE + Paleo

Fixing and making things, what tools to get and what skills to learn, ...
NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

I noticed in the thread about diabetes that something resembling the Paleo Diet was "prescribed," and that a few other commenters also subscribe to it. I've been following a certain flavor of the Paleo Diet (high-fat) for nine months and have had noticeable benefits. It fits in with Jacob's idea about "one meal a day" (Warrior Diet) as many paleos only eat twice a day--some once, some every other day.
On the other hand, it's a difficult diet to follow on an ERE budget--for that reason, I'm going to start deer hunting this winter, with the aim of killing and freezing a year's worth of meat. Whether Paleo coalesces with the ecological concerns of ERE is also possibly controversial.
Uh... discuss? :)


jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17124
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Post by jacob »

I'm interested in that "every other day" eating. Experiences?
What's the meat/nut/vegetable ratio?
Links/resources?


Q
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Post by Q »

What's so wrong with eating more than once or twice a day?
What's the exclusion on drinking?
What's the shock value to your system from switching to an all meat/fruit diet. That's close to atkins like, albeit when I did do atkins ages ago, I felt better and less tired...


Catherine
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:29 pm

Post by Catherine »

Well, for online info, there's always: http://paleodiet.com/
Personally, I think there are definitely aspects of the diet than make sense--it's certainly an improvement over the typical American diet of super-refined super-corn everything. That said, I'm skeptical since the one person I know who even attempts to follow it seems to use being on the diet mainly as an excuse to purchase massive quantities of meat at Whole Foods and then whine about how it's impossible to find cheap organic meat. As someone who is vegetarian/borderline vegan strictly for environmental reasons, I find that particular manifestation of paleo diet practitioner to be incredibly selfish and annoying.
I recall seeing some research at one point saying that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle was probably not really as heavy on meat as people might typically think, simply due to meat being more difficult to track down and kill (while berries and nuts just sit still and wait to be picked). There might have been periods of intense meat consumption (after a big kill), but with no means of preservation, that would not be a regular event. I think if you took that sort of approach (mostly whole fruits, vegetables, and nuts, occasional meat consumption, very little/minimal bread or cereal products), you'd probably be doing the most optimal version of the diet, from health, monetary cost, and ecological footprint standpoints. This is pretty much how I try to eat most days: lots of vegetables and fruit, protein from a mix of soy and legumes (soy is probably the closest thing to meat in terms of nutrition since it's relatively low carb and a complete protein. Also, much cheaper--even organic is under $2/lb), some nuts, and then some out and out carbs (oatmeal, bread), but no more than maybe one serving/meal (yes, I eat three times a day...). It may not be exactly "paleo", but it's a far cry from typical American, and if I stick with eating that way, I definitely feel and function better than if I start eating a lot of bread, sugar, etc. I do spend more than this $100/month on food figure that a lot of people seem to be aiming for, but I'm still doing pretty well on keeping food costs down.


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

The paleo diet is an attempt to emulate the diet of our Paleolithic ancestors, with whom we share 100% of our genetic makeup. Our bodies aren't made, the story goes, to live on grains or legumes (rice and beans, EREs!) but rather on animal/fish fat and protein, a moderate amount of vegetables, some starches, coconuts, and a tiny amount of fruit and nuts.
There are many variants on it, but, contrary to the capital-P Paleo Diet book by Cordain, most contemporary "paleos" get 40-80% of their energy from fat, largely saturated fat from meat, fish, eggs, butter, coconut oil, coconut milk, lard and tallow, and they eat 0-150 grams of carbs per day (compare to 350+ for most Americans). There are raw-only paleos, zero carb paleos, triathlon paleos, and so on, but you won't find any of them eating breakfast cereal or other low-nutrient foods such as rice, bread, pasta, white potatoes, or energy bars, nor will you find many eating mounds of fruit or nuts at a sitting.
@Q: There's nothing wrong with eating more than once or twice a day. However, there is mounting evidence of long-term health benefits in "intermittent fasting." If you've heard of the effect of calorie restriction on longevity in animal studies, it turns out there is similar benefit from "IF." As you may have read, Jacob does the Warrior Diet, which is one decent/large-sized meal at the end of each day--it's very likely that our ancestors ate in this manner: Wake up; hunt; carry the kill back home; eat. When eating a paleo diet, over time it becomes very easy to, without thinking about it, go for 7+ hours between meals, or 15+ hours overnight. If your diet is made largely of vegetables, tomatoes, rice, beans and white potatoes, however, I think it would make it much harder to do IF. (how do you do it, Jacob?!)
Some credible resources:
http://www.paleonu.com/

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/

http://www.paleohacks.com
And: I discovered paleo via marksdailyapple.com. I think he's very credible and a good resource too, despite the fact that he hawks his own nutritional supplements on the site.
Some NYC friends who are current/future luminaries and bloggers of paleo (John was on the Colbert Report earlier this year):
hunter-gatherer.com (John Durant)

huntgatherlove.com (Melissa McEwen)
@Catherine - I'd love to talk on the forum with you about the environmental aspects of vegetarian/vegan vs. paleo. There's actually quite a bit of debate about it, and there are a number of ex-vegans in the paleo community. I'm also concerned about my ecological footprint, and I foresee that footprint shrinking dramatically when I start hunting white tail deer, whose population is out of control on the east coast, instead of buying expensive grass-fed beef/pork/lamb, as I currently do. Also, soy is regarded pretty much as poison among paleos--not to alarm you, but you might want to read up on it on some of the aforementioned sites. Intermittent meat consumption--from observation of modern-day hunter-gatherers, I'm not sure this is accurate. For example, Native Americans made and ate jerky and pemmican, thereby preserving meat for steady consumption.
@Jacob: I have not personally done an every other day fast, but other, more experienced paleo followers do it as a matter of lifestyle. The idea of IF is to "accidentally" do it because your glucose/insulin is so steady and your fat metabolism is so efficient that you don't feel hungry for hours and hours.
There's a whole exercise side to paleo as well, which I won't go into here, because this post is already long... Would also like to discuss the ever-important budget aspect--my food budget is currently $350, and I see it going down to $160 only upon extreme early retirement (in five years). Finally, I haven't said a thing about the actual science of it, involving inflammation, insulin, fat metabolism, etc. (see resources above, and perhaps we can discuss)


jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17124
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Post by jacob »

Does the paleo diet also focus mainly on organs (liver, kidneys, hearts, eyeballs?) seeing that this is preferred over muscle meat by [modern] hunter gatherers in that it would be eaten first before any of the "meat" is touched?
Organ tissue is typically much cheaper than muscle tissue.


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

@Q: there's no restriction on drinking while intermittent fasting. paleo folks mostly drink water and perhaps a little coffee, tea, kombucha. juice isn't really paleo because of all the sugar. paleo isn't as restrictive as "all-meat/fruit," but there is a transition period where some report a temporary drop in energy or even flu-like symptoms while one's body learns how to fuel largely from fat (dietary and body stores). the ultimate benefits are more energy, loss of excess body fat, extremely stable insulin/blood glucose (therefore energy and longer-lasting satiety), among others.


Q
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Post by Q »

Chicken hearts skewered! Yum!
Not a fan of liver, or of any sort of eye balls. Mexican and Chinese dishes use a lot of organs - Sesos tacos is my grandmothers favorite. SO prefers Tripe and Lengua, also good.
I very much love italian food however. And what about corn? If corn is ok, can I make corn based pasta? Didn't old school humans have chickens? Or at least "gather" other animals' eggs?
What are the starches and why only a small amount of fruits and nuts.
Still seems like an amped up Atkins Diet.


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

@Jacob: Indeed, organ meats are a featured part of the paleo diet, because of the hunter-gatherer evidence you mention, and the comparatively high nutritive value of organs. One very important detail I didn't mention above is the importance of eating only meat that's been pastured, not raised on a factory feedlot. CAFO (factory farmed) meat, and especially CAFO organs will have nasty toxins stored in the fat as well as an unfavorable omega-6/omega-3 ratio. However, it's unusual for people following this diet to eat large amounts of offal, but rather they tend to "supplement" with it.
Another low-budget/high-nutrient animal product: bones! You can use marrow to as a cooking fat, as well as making stock with your left over (or scrounged) bones:
http://huntgatherlove.com/content/nyc-p ... illshare-i


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

@Q: I love chicken hearts too--I never got the guts up (pun) to go for the sesos burritos in my native San Francisco, but I've heard brain can be... interesting, at least!
amped up Atkins--yeah, I don't think it's hugely different from Atkins, except for the emphasis on well-sourced meat and perhaps the exercise component (we haven't discussed this yet).
chicken and eggs are totally paleo-kosher--must be pastured, though, for full benefit (your health and the chickens' welfare too).
corn isn't regarded as a proper vegetable--lots of sugar, and... i don't know why else; maybe have a look-see at one of the above sites.
starches--carrots, sweet potatoes, squash, beets.
fruit and nuts--the carbs add up fast with these, and compared to veggies, you don't get as much bang for your back with fruit as far as the nutrients:calories ratio. nuts and fruit are healthy, but in moderation. too many nuts will throw off your omega-6:omega-3 ratio, thus increasing inflammation in your body. modern-day o-6:o-3 is 20-30:1, but our ancestors likely were more like 1-3:1.
also, if you eat a big pile of fruit or nuts, you'll get a spike in insulin; when the insulin sorts out all those carbs, down goes your energy-->"food coma." unless you're in the middle of a marathon (≠paleo), most of that glucose will be ushered by the insulin right into your fat stores.
fruit and nut intake varies among paleos--some only eat fruit every few days, and only a handful of berries at that; others perhaps a bit more (i eat 1-2 servings a day). nuts are generally consumed no more than 1-2 grams per day--for some these are also only occasional. returning to the "eat like our ancestors" idea, it would be unlikely to come upon a payload of a pound of macadamia nuts in the wild.


JohnnyH
Posts: 2005
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: Rockies

Post by JohnnyH »

Great info NYC, I've been following paleo for years. It is THE diet, IMO.
I've read the studies on caloric restriction, and I think it might be more due to the decreased insulin load, rather than fewer calories... That explain why the group that ate every other day, but had more calories, fared best. Look at how many fail to lose weight on low calorie diets. LOL, dieters are better off eating lard than 100 calorie cookie packs.
I have done experiments on eating every other day, but found it too hard to keep my weight up... Eating paleo that is. Eating processed foods, beans, rice the weight wasn't an issue. I compromise by fasting a day every week or two.
Don't get me started on the meat eater vs veg. argument... Let's plow all the graze land of Montana into massive commercial soy fields -for the earth! All covered pretty well here:

PT1: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/meat-eat ... evolution/

PT2: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/in-defen ... at-eaters/


JohnnyH
Posts: 2005
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: Rockies

Post by JohnnyH »

Whole Foods is a complete waste of money. Good meat can be found for less, even if you have DIY like NYC (way to go!).
Find the [many local] farms that are selling to whole foods and buy from them... Get a couple partners and finance a trip out to the sticks and buy from a farm.
I love living in a cattle state, I can get grass fed beef burger, with delicious/nutritious organs!:), for about $1.80/lb.
Look for an independent butcher, sometimes they have fantastic stuff for cheap, especially on organ meats, bones w/ marrow.


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

@JohnnyH: good tips, thanks! i currently subscribe to a local meat CSA while waiting for deer season to start. it actually isn't horribly (WF) expensive, but nothing like $1.80/lb. the good part is it gets FedExed to me from upstate NY; I don't really have time to go schlepping to farms on the weekend, though I'm sure it would be fun--no car, no bike trailer, expensive trains.
the butchers that carry grass-fed/organic are way expensive, and they largely won't even give much of a deal on offal, if they have it in the first place. NYC is 'pay to play.' on the other hand, we have some amazing farmers' markets--i work near the Union Square one, which is four days a week, and i have gotten some freebies there--beef kidney (had to chuck it; couldn't handle the taste), suet (rendered it into tallow and cooked with it for months!).


Concojones
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:57 am

Post by Concojones »

It's actually a myth that hunter-gatherers hardly ate any grains. I recently read an article (link? google?) that said that our grain history goes much further back than previously tought, but those discoveries were only made AFTER the book "The Paleo Diet" was written. In any case, OF COURSE did our ancestors eat grains! The question is: did they eat so much of it as we did today? I think the answer is obvious. But going overboard the other way and banning grains entirely (as some advocate) is probably doing ourselves a disservice too. How about the good old advice to eat variedly?
Yes, organ meats are nutritious and even indispensable according to some (Weston Price foundation -- warning: very thought-provoking website!). And yes (at least) liver is a problem to eat because it acts as a store - not only of vitamins but also of toxins and all the crap they feed cattle these days.


AlexOliver
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by AlexOliver »

@Cocojones: I'd like to see a link to the article about grains.


Q
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Post by Q »

What. about. alcohol.
I guess I'll dig into the corn issue. Plus, SO said that I can stop buying flour tortillas if she gets the mix right from making them from scratch. Considering that tortillas have been around for several hundreds of years, I second Concojones on the "what about the grain" issue.
Nothing like fresh flour tortillas!


jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17124
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Post by jacob »

WRT tortilla mix, isn't it just water and flour?


Q
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Post by Q »

Lard and flour is the pure version.


JohnnyH
Posts: 2005
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: Rockies

Post by JohnnyH »

Source of controversy:

Mozambican Grass Seed Consumption During the Middle Stone Age

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5960/1680
Science article:

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009 ... -cave.html
Paleo take on above:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/stone-age-grains/
Basically, there was sorghum starch found on tools. But then tools were used for many things, such as the preparation of kindling, bedding, etc.
With the abundance of food man must have had then and there, it's hard to believe they would engage in so much labor to eat grass.


NYC ERE
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm

Post by NYC ERE »

@Concojones: Some Weston Price folks do eat grains--only sprouted and/or fermented, however. Ditto for lentils and other legumes, to make them more digestible. It seems legit to me, but I'm too lazy to sprout/ferment, and there's still the issue of omega-3/6 balance. Not to mention taste--it takes a lot more effort, IMO, to make neolithic foods tasty and healthier, compared to meat.
@Q: Ah, I should have realized that's what you meant by drinking. Beer is proscripted; red wine is okay in moderation--Mark Sisson (marksdailyapple.com) drinks red wine every day. Mind you, most paleos are not 100%--I certainly am not--and will have a beer now and then, a donut here and there, what have you.


Post Reply