I reject reality and substitute my own

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Riggerjack
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Riggerjack »

Option 3 is not optimal because...

My point is that optimal is not ideal. Variety is the spice of life.

We (INTJs) are a vast minority. Our value to humanity is not increased by our numbers. The herd is not stronger for conforming to our way of doing things.

There needs to be other groups that exist within the herd, who also contribute solely in specialized situations for the human race to continue to exist.

Optimal solutions are evolutionary dead ends. The world changes, we either have a population that will thrive in that new world, or we don't.

jacob
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by jacob »

That's why I qualified my statement about leadership.

http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/content/intj-leadership
Note that INTJs will remain content followers so long as the leader is the doing a good job (Keirsey, 1998). But if the leader is a bungler, the INTJ cannot help but try to wrench the wheel from the hands of the incompetent and set the ship back on its proper course.
Maybe capable is a better word than natural. I also vastly prefer the second-in-command (in the strategist/advisor/man behind the curtain sense; not the delegator of top-level directives) position... mainly so that I don't have to deal with people directly. To wit,
INTJs may run into trouble when they decide to ignore the "pointless" social niceties that could in fact secure cooperation from those who could help them; when they treat less intelligent or skilled subordinates with open disdain; when they fail to give praise and appreciation for a job well done; when they do not give detailed instructions to the types that prefer clear specifics to high level directives ("Keirsey.com," 2009); or when they give orders "out of the blue" without bothering to secure the support of those who are expected to carry them out.
A great deal of scientists are of the INT* orientation. We're probably seeing INTJ frustration from bungled leadership. Normally, top-level knowledge is disseminated via lieutenants and sergeants, so science-level communication is directed at them: Journalists, teachers, executives, ... However, in certain cases, the usual process has been foiled. E.g. journalists have gone from critically assessing the information to lazily presenting everything as a two-sided debate, etc. The internet compounds this problem as does loss of objective reality. The big strength of the internet in terms of presenting more viewpoints is also a great weakness.

Riggerjack
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Riggerjack »

However, in certain cases, the usual process has been foiled.
You keep talking about how the deniers have subverted the process. This is not the case. This IS the process.

You claim scientific consensus. Lovely. Science will do what science does. Slowly add one more study, supporting the work previously done by others, refining models, etc.

That process is not how the rest of the population gains that knowledge. First, it makes it into science magazines, done, then textbooks, then conversation at the dinner table. This is a multigenerstional process. This is how plate tectonics moved into public knowledge, and how most science gets there.

CC, in the form of GW, was seized by the environmental left, and turned into a political issue. This has not stopped or slowed down the normal process, it just jump started the launch, and because it was a political issue, it jump started resistance.

The science dissemination process is continuing apace. The political process is where I expect it to be.

Your frustrations are caused by addressing a political issue like it is anything else. This Is Not A Science Issue. Vaccinations, GMOs, and organic foods are not science issues.

Look to the young, did your message get thru? Now let time work it's magic.

Tyler9000
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Tyler9000 »

jacob wrote: Obviously, this anti-scientific sentiment is a problem in more than just one field and it seems to be spreading. It's a problem because people are literally dying because of ignorance. Now, we know from multiple fields, that presenting the facts is not going to work. Satire and ridicule has been suggested and rejected by a majority in this thread because while it works on some, it rejects others, and it strongly polarizes the situation.

What other more effective suggestions may there be?
As a design consultant, the most important thing I learned about influencing people is to first understand the target audience and to adjust your presentation to put it in terms that they personally relate to. "This is how my idea will make your life/job easier." The presentation for the exact same product would be very different for the CFO (capital required, revenue potential, execution plan), marketing VP (new market reach, target customers, price points), engineering director (technical specs, realistic schedules, risks and mitigation strategies), and end customers (features, benefits, how freaking cool it is). I learned early on that rolling into a marketing or finance meeting with an engineering presentation was a waste of time and likely to do more harm than good. But by recognizing the very different motivations of each party and by speaking in their terms, I became pretty darn effective at promoting new ideas that everyone could get on board with.

When it comes to climate change, I'm admittedly a subset of Group 2 that accepts that many of the proposed facts of Group 1 are based in good science but rejects their most apocalyptic predictions, recognizes that the required tradeoffs may not always make the alternative plans a net positive for humanity (continued third-world poverty so that we can still fly to climate summits in Rio in a carbon-neutral way), and notices that many of the proposed "solutions" are politically expedient (massive carbon taxes and global wealth redistribution) rather than true science-based remediation (nuclear energy). But here's the thing -- I largely share a similar vision for a better environmental future and accepting the same "facts" is completely unnecessary to identify common ground. If anything, I believe that shifting the environmentalism focus from air quality, water pollution, deforestation, wildlife diversity, etc (all issues that the vast majority of people immediately appreciate and support) to theoretical sea level changes hundreds of years out has set back the movement tremendously. It has distracted people from areas where real consensus can be formed, and diverted resources from projects where measurable progress can be made.

FWIW, I personally believe Jacob and MMM have accomplished great inroads in improving the environment not by beating the climate change drum but by appealing to the other very real motivations for people to behave responsibly. Living in a low-impact way and rejecting consumerism is an effective way to eliminate money stress, free yourself from the machine, and live a happy life. The fact that it also benefits the environment and fights climate change is a happy side benefit. IMHO, we need more of these types of diverse asymmetrical arguments and fewer calls for homogeneous thinking. Any strategy that first requires every human to agree on the reasoning and share the same motivation is a practical non-starter.
Last edited by Tyler9000 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ego
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Ego »

GandK wrote:And respect in this context is not an emotion. It's room at the table.
Room at the table?

I think we can agree that the solution must be political, yet the people most capable of leading the change (1)have until now been refused a seat at the political table(2)because they refuse to say that they use belief as a basis for decision making.

Please don't confuse that as me claiming to be a victim. We are all the victim.

That is the common thread here. Belief-based decision making. Personal beliefs (that happen to be wrong) influencing decisions that affect us all.

jacob
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:Belief-based decision making. Personal beliefs (that happen to be wrong) influencing decisions that affect us all.
That is what I wanted to focus on when I started the thread. In particular how factual arguments, which used to carry a special status, have been demoted to carry equal weight to other arguments. We're now in a cultural environment where it is perfectly acceptable to reject facts insofar they go against the argument we're trying to make.

In terms of seats at the table, facts are no longer sitting at the head of the table, but more importantly, facts have lost their veto right as well. When all seats are respected equally, facts are just one kind of belief along with any other belief.

The Kansas school board is an example of that philosophy in which creationism demanded equal respect to evolutionary biology in the science class room. As mentioned above, this demand for respect for all beliefs backfired when the Church of FSM demanded equal level of respect as well. It then became obvious, at least with regards to teaching biology, that it's a bad idea to respect each and every belief equally.

In any case, the "facts are just another belief/all beliefs should be respected equally" postmodernistic approach is now pervasive throughout society. There are many who sincerely believe that science is just another narrative and we have definitely left the world, where deliberately ignoring facts is anathema, behind. Instead, we now focus on finding ways to allow people to be wrong until they come around through gentle persuasion or die of the consequences of being wrong [while in some cases taking others down with them] because respect for all beliefs---even factually wrong ones---override all other concerns.

Lemon
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Lemon »

jacob wrote:Option 3 is not optimal because some people can't be vaccinated due to medical issues even if they very much like to. These people rely on herd immunity, that is that if enough people in the herd can't contract the disease they won't be spreading it to others.

I'm quite fine when it comes to actions that only hurt the people who engage in them. I invest both in tobacco, junk food, and prison companies even as many consider such unethical. However, I draw the line when actions also hurt innocents. I do not invest in certain mining companies for example.
How many orders are needed for it to not count as harming innocents? All those examples you have listed can also harm innocents also albeit not as indiscriminately.

BRUTE
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:facts are no longer sitting at the head of the table
jacob wrote:facts have lost their veto right
brute thinks jacob is romanticizing a certain mythical past in which all humans listened to scientists and took them seriously, and politicians made decisions based upon scientific evidence.

brute would suggest that this has never been the case.

now jacob can argue that it would be nice or positive for humans. but to argue that this used to be the case seems absurd, given humanity's history.

regarding ridicule, IlliniDave hits the nail on the head: ridicule never convinced any of the humans being ridiculed. the main function of ridicule is to bond with the people already on your side. especially the people who are mostly on your side because of herd dynamics, not because of reason.

there's a reason MMM is so popular with more mainstream people and ERE is for the anti-social uber nerds. MMM targets humans who want to belong to a group and feel superior to their contemporaries. in other words, the majority of all humans.

jacob
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by jacob »

@brute - I don't think people were ever 100% fact-based in the past, but the trend is definitely towards less fact based. Look at the increasing popularity/existence of fact-checkers that go through politicians' speeches. Where did that come from? Why didn't those exist in the past? I suspect it's because politicians now feel completely at liberty to knowingly lie whenever it serves their cause because they know that the majority no longer cares.

And I think we need a more nuanced picture of the impact of ridicule and consider the entire distribution of humans. Not just those who are fixed in their opposition and those who already agree but much more importantly the generally much larger group of people who aren't quite sure and those who are undecided. Everything I've seen regarding herd behaviour suggests that if a position is singled out for targeting, the as yet undecided mob will join in the attack, not in the defense. To compound the effect, few will even stay neutral. It is a prime weakness of mankind. For reference, see any yahoo and youtube comment thread. If ridicule worked as you guys suggest there would be no trolls or griefers on the internet. There would be no school-yard bullying. There would probably be no wars.

BRUTE
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:the trend is definitely towards less fact based
brute isn't sure who's rejecting reality now. is jacob serious? there might be a slight down trend within the last 30 years at most, but compared to the first 10,000 years of humanity, facts are definitely on the rise. even 200 years ago, most humans wouldn't even have know what a "fact" was. they would've accepted scripture and mysticism over their own common sense and experiences.

jacob
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by jacob »

@brute - Most humans still can't properly define the difference between a fact and a theory(*)---or find north on a map for that matter. The number of facts are certainly on the rise but it has not been matched by an increase in critical thinking skills. There are even indications from academic studies that critical thinking skills are declining partially due to the focus on "factoid regurgitation"-style testing/teaching in recent decades and partially due to shortening attention span for multitasking and multimedia which doesn't allow time to think deeper, also in the last couple of decades. Without critical thinking skills, the larger number of factoids available just a short google away has made it easier for people to be swayed by opinion and lies. The increased availability of facts hasn't made people more intelligent. Rather it has made it easier to be stupid to put it bluntly.

I think that the only thing that has changed is that instead of trusting scripture and mysticism people now trust facebook memes (as long as they agree with them) and talk show hosts (as long as they agree with them).

(*) Likewise, that most people now know how to operate microwave ovens doesn't demonstrate that such modern humans have a superior technological understanding compared to a medieval peasant since most modern humans have no clue how the internal operations of the oven function. Conversely, the medieval peasant very likely has a rather good understanding of how to start and maintain a fire.

disparatum
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by disparatum »

IlliniDave wrote: Regarding ridicule as a tactic: I remember as a kid who was doing the ridiculing and who was being ridiculed on the playground. I know it is currently a fashionable pastime for leftists and some of the far right wing. I reflexively tune such people out. It's great method for bonding with those you already agree with, and getting a few laughs. But I think using it as a noble motivation technique is a lost art.
Not in the military. It is, in fact, one of the highest forms of art there. And I would say the purpose is almost entirely noble. No longer being part of this club in a day-to-day capacity, I've come to miss the candid appraisal of idiocy and stupidity when encountered. It now hides behind political correctness and a sensitivity for self-esteem. Fortunately, I don't interact with idiots on a daily basis. But you know the saying, if you can't point out the idiot in the room...

To say something at least marginally on topic, there is little reality distortion in the military concerning climate change. In general, it's interesting to note the difference between the organizational response and the individual response.

Riggerjack
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Riggerjack »

Jacob, I'm confused by your reference groups.

I'm not aware of any large group that in general allows facts to trump feelings. Even here, we have to link to back up facts, to establish a baseline. I've spent plenty of time with undergrads, and with college grads, management, engineering, etc. None of them were particularly swayed by facts, or current science, for that matter.

Maybe there is some cabal of physics professors who are guided by the latest studies, but I expect they are mostly reading them for laughs at the sociology Dept.

You reference polls of how stupid people are, right after breaking down how to manipulate polls. And then you don't seem to recognize the discrepancy.

People are people, nothing has changed. If it seems to have, then it's probably a change in your mental environment. This is an election year. And more of the internet than usual is going to be dedicated to helping readers herd effectively.

IlliniDave
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by IlliniDave »

disparatum wrote:
Not in the military. It is, in fact, one of the highest forms of art there. And I would say the purpose is almost entirely noble. No longer being part of this club in a day-to-day capacity, I've come to miss the candid appraisal of idiocy and stupidity when encountered. It now hides behind political correctness and a sensitivity for self-esteem. Fortunately, I don't interact with idiots on a daily basis. But you know the saying, if you can't point out the idiot in the room...
My understanding from daily association with a large number of ex-military is that PC is gradually but steadily taking it over. In the city where I live there was recently a very public story about a general who was fired from a prominent assignment and forced to retire for failing to let go of his old habits when it came to communicating with his subordinates.

Your point is taken, though. There's a line between a a candid appraisal of idiocy and ridicule. Basically it happens when the person rather than the idea/action is disparaged, as was mentioned above re religion. And I think an immediate life-and-death business like the military calls for some different ways of doing things than what is effective for making things happen in a free society.

Dragline
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Dragline »

BRUTE wrote:
jacob wrote:the trend is definitely towards less fact based
brute isn't sure who's rejecting reality now. is jacob serious? there might be a slight down trend within the last 30 years at most, but compared to the first 10,000 years of humanity, facts are definitely on the rise. even 200 years ago, most humans wouldn't even have know what a "fact" was. they would've accepted scripture and mysticism over their own common sense and experiences.
Well, there are two things going on -- a trend and a cycle with respect to attitudes towards climate change.

The trend is like that old Bohr (or was it Heisenberg?) quote about ideas not dying out until their proponents are dead and are replaced by younger people with different ideas. This is definitely occurring with respect to attitudes towards climate change. See http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/11/05/glo ... emissions/

"Young Americans are generally more concerned than their elders about climate change. Americans ages 18 to 29 are significantly more likely than those ages 50 and older to see global warming as a very serious problem (52% to 38%), to believe it will affect them personally (34% very concerned vs. 21%), and to support U.S. participation in an agreement to limit greenhouse gas emissions (85% to 60%). Younger Americans are also more likely to think rich countries should do more than developing nations to address this problem (51% to 34%)."

And if you look back just a few years, you can see the trend is tilting towards more acceptance of it. But what the pollsters fail to think about is whether people are actually changing their minds or just dying and being replaced. I'm pretty sure its the latter. However, note that the politician and talking head population skews much older, leading to a false perception that things are not changing. (Then one day you wake up, marijuana is legal, gay people are getting married and . . .)

The cyclical trend is that the Millennial Generation generally prefers science and technology over the values/mystic laden Boomers and "nobody-can-tell-me-what-to-do-or-think" Gen-Xers. By the time we get to the Elon Musk Year of 2028, we'll be partying like its the International Geophysical Year of 1958. Cool tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k1m9TevgJM

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Ego
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Ego »

BRUTE wrote:regarding ridicule, IlliniDave hits the nail on the head: ridicule never convinced any of the humans being ridiculed. the main function of ridicule is to bond with the people already on your side. especially the people who are mostly on your side because of herd dynamics, not because of reason.

there's a reason MMM is so popular with more mainstream people and ERE is for the anti-social uber nerds.
Juxtaposed paragraphs. ;)

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Ego
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Ego »

Today on Shankar Vedantam's podcast Hidden Brain

Why Our Brains Weren't Made To Deal With Climate Change
http://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474685770 ... ate-change

In the podcast they mentioned Kahneman's view that:

1) we discount future problems.
2) we are naturally cost averse.
3) we are reluctant to deal with uncertainty.

Also they suggest a religion-like shared sacrifice as the solution.

Dragline
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by Dragline »

I believe they mention this book, which we have discussed elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Di ... ate_Change

It could be a different book -- I think there is more than one on the psychology of it.

While the proposed solution is interesting, you are probably going to need an actual religious movement and not a pseudo-one for that type of solution to have any traction. Secular communitarian organizations have a habit of failing where religious ones succeed -- look up Israeli kibbutzes for some of the research/data on that. I think J. Haidt may have delved into that too. But honestly, I would not be surprised if the Left becomes more religious and the Right becomes less so by 2030.

BRUTE
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by BRUTE »

Ego wrote:Juxtaposed paragraphs. ;)
brute's attempt at using self-deprecating humor to gain the humans' trust has been compromised!

@Dragline:

this is exactly what brute meant previously by "it's not enough to be right and on a moral high ground/horse". if one views religion as instilling unfounded faith in a group of humans because one knows better than they do, climate change needs to become a religion (under this definition) to be accepted by a majority of humans. and in a way, it already has. almost all the humans who believe in climate change didn't check the science, they just believed somebody who they trust. in this sense, most ideas that take off are religious in nature: communism, capitalism, democracy, pop music.

brute suggests a formula:

problem is hard to verify/experience on an individual level + takes massive cooperation of unwashed masses to solve => solution is religious propaganda and brainwashing. truthfulness and morality of problem or solution not relevant.

jacob
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Re: I reject reality and substitute my own

Post by jacob »

BRUTE wrote: brute suggests a formula:

problem is hard to verify/experience on an individual level + takes massive cooperation of unwashed masses to solve => solution is religious propaganda and brainwashing. truthfulness and morality of problem or solution not relevant.
This is where I think the previous formula was---at least for some issues:

problem is hard to verify/experience on an individual level + takes massive cooperation of unwashed masses to solve => solution is journalists relaying the facts to the public and representative democracy relying on experts

And the current formula is:

problem is hard to verify/experience on an individual level + takes massive cooperation of unwashed masses to solve => solution is bloggers and think tanks making up facts for the public to google and democratic representatives relying on science fiction authors

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