When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Locked
Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

I almost titled this "When to Quit" before I realized the sheer confusion that would cause. :P I'm asking in a more general and philosophical sense than just quitting a job.

When do you know it's time to give up on something, in general? Be it a relationship, an activity/hobby/job, a diet, a goal, a strategy/tactic, et cetera. No one is good at everything, and one consequence of taking risks and trying new things is failure. Often we can dust ourselves off and either keep trying and eventually find success, or give up and try something different without much mental anguish. Sometimes, though, it's hard to accept or even recognize when we're failing at something, especially if it's important to us that we succeed at it.

For the sake of simplicity, let's say failing means 1) that you put in more effort than you get back in utility, that is, you are not achieving success (where success would be getting back at least as much or more value than you're putting in); 2) the correlation between effort in/utility out is not strong, that is, utility out does not seem to scale with effort in, and 3) based on inductive reasoning over a given period of time, you have little to no expectation of improvement in the ratio of effort in/utility out--that is, you don't seem to be getting better no matter how hard you try. (Feel free to disagree with these definitions.)

Say you've always dreamed of being a star football player, and you keep training and training and playing and playing, but you never make the team--maybe you're strong, maybe you're skilled, maybe you're even naturally talented, but something is missing; you're just a little too slight, a little too slow, et cetera. After X seasons of not making the cut, inductive reasoning lends you to believe you have little chance of making the team in the future, either. By the above definition, you are failing to achieve your goal of being a football player, much less a star.

Meanwhile, all that heavy training and effort is not without toll. Banging up your body, wearing on your spirit. You push harder and harder to stay in place, watching peers overtake you. Eventually you start to resent football in general. And for all you know, maybe you could be successful as a coach, or even a gymnast or some other kind of athlete altogether, if only you were putting your time into those pursuits instead.

So do you keep trying? Do you burn the ships, go all in regardless? Do you smash yourself to bits in pursuit of a dream? We idolize this mentality: "never give up, never surrender". But is that really best? Is it admirable to refuse to give up something when it's not working, or is it an expensive mistake?

Failure in and of itself isn't necessarily expensive, but failing to recognize failure and continuing on failing at something has to come at a cost, right? At the very least, continuing to fail represents an opportunity cost. Couldn't you be doing something else with that time/effort and finding success instead of failure? Not to mention, the physical, mental, and emotional costs of continuing to fail. This is obvious in the football player example, who risks real physical harm simply by continuing to play and train for the game at a high level, but I think most failure comes with emotional and physical toll, albeit sometimes more subtle.

I think these questions must be particularly tough for really driven, highly competent people like those on this forum, which is why I ask. Most of us are used to succeeding at what we do. Failure is a bitter pill to swallow, but IMHO sometimes we do have to take the medicine. For our own good.

What metrics do you use to gauge when giving up or changing directions would be the best course? Some combination of likelihood for improvement based on inductive reasoning times ratio of current effort to reward (divided by cost of continued effort/failure)? Are you swayed to quit at things when your efforts are not paying off with success (or improvement toward success), or are you of the burn the ships, win-or-die mentality*? For how long do you keep trying? Does your answer change depending on the endeavor, or on how much success in the endeavor matters to you?

And when/if you do give up, how do you accept that failure and move on, especially if succeeding at the endeavor was important to you? How do you reframe it?

*Hell, this even sort of applies to the frequent questions about marriage, since IIRC many of you supported the practice as essentially a means of "burning the ships". :b

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by GandK »

I think this is a paradigm issue, @Spartan. I really think you've only failed at something if you haven't given it your best try. And if you have, and something isn't working for you, then failure isn't changing course. Failure would be staying still. :D

Image

Also, it's rare for me to let go of a dream entirely. Almost always, what I'm letting go of is a specific version of that dream. I'm not cutting romantic relationships out of my life when I decide a specific person isn't the right partner for me. I'm not giving up on writing novels when I decide to pursue another story or another route to publication. Instead, I'm saying, "The path I'm on isn't getting me to the promised land... so what? There are a lot of other paths. I'm not going to change my identity and my life dreams because the accepted formula for most people doesn't work for me. I mean, how is that even a surprise?! I'm nothing like most people!"

I guess what I'm saying is: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Be specific about what isn't working, and I'm sure a plan for fixing it will begin to emerge.

mfi
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:27 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by mfi »

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.

Samuel Beckett

slsdly
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:04 am

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by slsdly »

I have a tendency to beat myself up about everything. Why did I say/write that? OMG. Meltdown.

Like my father, I often find myself embracing things. It isn't enough to do something, you have to be fully committed to doing it right. (By jove, I will baste the hell out of this turkey!) But after much observation and reflection, I don't think that is a healthy way to live. Obsession is its own form of poison. Not only is it distressing when things do not go as envisioned, you drive others away from you with your single mindedness.

Nowadays, while I have milestones, I try not to judge the worthiness of an activity by those markers. I am enjoying it? If so, then that is enough usually. Not every waking moment needs to be spent productively, as long as I make some sort of accomplishment in some aspect of my life on a semi regular basis. Maybe even that accomplishment was small. Life does not have to be a competition if you remain motivated without. What is more important to me is living by my ideals (e.g. be a good person) than specific accomplishments (e.g. become aw3s0me famous free software developer).

It is hard to put into words. I suppose I attempt to embrace feelings, and live in the moment more than trying to be rational about everything I do. Relax dude. You don't have to control everything. You don't have to succeed at everything or at your major goals in life. As long as you were happy during the struggle, does it really matter if you didn't win? Even in the nuclear cases we've discussed (i.e. divorce), it may take things away from me (i.e. ERE) but it wouldn't take away the fact that I accomplished it in the first place nor my ability to get it back.

For the things you *must* do (i.e. very strong FI position for myself), take care to set achievable goals (i.e. by 40) and break it down into smaller goals so you get a sense of progress. That way even if you slip on the milestones, you know you've made measured progress. And when you beat those rather unambitious milestones, you get a boost :).

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by Chad »

This is a very difficult question considering the number of variables and the type of variables in this decision.

The first question you need to answer is your definition of success in this endeavor. For instance, there was a guy I played football with in high school that was last on the depth chart. He was a terrible athlete. Really one of the worst athletes I have ever been around in organized sports or just a pick up game on the playground. There was no amount of effort (he put forth plenty) or luck that would have gotten him anywhere near a starting position or even in a position to give the starter a break for a few plays. Yet, he came out every year and did everything asked of him without ever seeming to even think about quitting. It was quite an impressive display of determination. However, I don't think starting was ever a goal he really had. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he would have considered the endeavor of playing football a major success had he started. However, I think his real definition of success was to just be included. He was fairly awkward socially and playing THE team sport automatically gave him an in with this group of people, which appeared to please him a lot. That's a lot of work for that definition of success, but is it more work than what he got back? For him, I don't think it was.

So, let’s say you defined your definition of success and it was to be a starter, but it appears that is unlikely to happen. Could you reduce your required level of success? This would be an even better option if it resulted in being able to lower your level of effort at the same time.

But, let’s assume your only goal is to be starter. Does it have to be as the quarterback? Would you be willing to switch positions to just be a starter or is quarterback the only definition of success for you? If it is then you need to make some changes in how you are attacking this problem and some of these changes will probably be big and non-traditional.

Of course, you also have to take into account how much you like the different approaches. You might define success as being rich, but is selling drugs a viable approach after other morally good choices are exhausted? Probably not.

My life example on giving up is coaching football. I wasn't willing to accept the level of financial risk and the level of personal connections needed for success in that business (Too important for promotion and I sucked at it). So, I changed my definition of success for coaching and added new completely different definitions for success in other endeavors. I will coach again, but it won't be when I need money.

slsdly
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:04 am

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by slsdly »

Another thing I feel I should mention, that is sort of related...

To normal people, happiness seems to be something you can buy, whether than be through things or experiences. A more nuanced form would be to achieve happiness through great deeds. But I don't think it is that either. It is simply a gift. Assuming your life isn't falling apart at the seams or there being some gaping emotional/social hole in your life (we are for the most part tribal creatures, so I find I need some human contact), there really isn't a reason to be *unhappy*. So yes, a gift, one you can choose to give to yourself, without any particular reason.

Now, maybe you have a fear this will make you complacent. How can I accomplish things, how can I be motivated and driven, if I am so content with what I have?!?! Is that not the very reason for accomplishments, that we find them fulfilling? I know that fear. Some of my greatest accomplishments came out of adversity, grief, sorrow, and most importantly, rage. I learned how to channel (some of) that energy into something positive, to push back on the imperfect world and do as I see fit.

On the other hand, that hasn't been my only form of motivation. Just the first one that I consciously seized and made use of. When I've been the most happiest, feeling on top of the world, things just sort of fall into place. It is like there is music in my head, and I can manipulate the world around me to that tune. Seeing the task itself done is simply enough. Doing it well is euphoric. When I remember that, I'm not worried that if I let go of the fears and anger which brought me to where I am today, I will lose my fire. Whatever the source of my internal drive / fire, it didn't come from negativity, reaching for goals or happiness, those are just ways I unleashed it.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by steveo73 »

Chad wrote:So, let’s say you defined your definition of success and it was to be a starter, but it appears that is unlikely to happen. Could you reduce your required level of success? This would be an even better option if it resulted in being able to lower your level of effort at the same time.
I think that this is a better perspective to come from. If you are really thinking of giving up I think your goal may be too out of sync with reality.

Life isn't (or at least to me) about being single mindedly focussed on a single goal. Its about creating a broad life that I find enjoyable. I could probably for instance save 90% of my income and live a lot more cheaply if I sold my house and made the wife and kids eat lentils and porridge every day whilst getting rid of all cell phones, pocket money, maybe scrimp on medicine and any activities for the kids. I don't choose to do that. I choose to manage my expenses better than that average person and we saved something like 75% of our income last year. This year I think that figure may drop to something like 70%. That to me isn't failure and I'm definitely not giving up becoming FI.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3905
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by IlliniDave »

Quit when you don't want to do it any more. Accepting failure shouldn't be that difficult--it's a pretty routine part of life.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 16128
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by jacob »

I was trying to formulate a general rule and the best I can come up with is that once you've identified the peak, you should add 20% of additional effort relative to the effort you already put in.

E.g. you've worked at something for 10 years and now it sucks. You should put in 2 additional years just to make sure that you're not cutting out due to some temporary issue.

The idea is to identify that there's a signal of failure and not confuse it with general volatility.

You can use something else than 20%. It doesn't need to be time. It could be effort. Or you can use a fancier method than a "trailing percentage stop". You get the point.

Also in general, if the suck-alarm is flashing, I start looking for "other interests". I can then use those to move towards something rather than away from what sucked.

In my experience, I have never regretted leaving too early and in retrospect there has been several instances of failure where I could have benefited from stopping out sooner.

SimpleLife
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by SimpleLife »

I think this is a great question. Logically, I think one can assign values to the cost of keeping on keeping on, vs the benefit if you succeed, and the probability of success. With the right numbers, one can calculate whether it is worth it or not. With some things, like a relationship, things are less tangible and harder to quantify, but you could compare the situation you are in to a situation you could be in, i.e., issues with gf. Lot's of emotional issues. No real way to calculate cost, but compared to stable and emotionally mature gf who can contribute financially, what is your opportunity cost by staying with existing SO?

Riggerjack
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, what Jacob said. And when I lose interest.

What I have to guard against is not accounting for the cost of quitting. Quitting being an author is fairly low cost. Store the manuscript, it doesn't degrade much, doesn't take up much space. All investment was your time/effort.

Quitting a car Restoration could mean storage issues, and material degradation. Basket case Restorations generally sell for less than parts cars. Loss of time, money, effort, and space.

All quitting comes with costs. Even if the cost is the loss of the satisfaction success would have given you.

Quit when the success is no longer worth the costs of continued efforts, and the losses of quitting are an acceptable tradeoff for that part of your future back.

As we grow, our goals, dreams and desires change. Your efforts should reflect that change. For example, how lame is that guy in his 40's, still trying to be cool to kids in their teens and 20's. His goal has been the same, because he never grew out of it. Even success can be a trap.

If you are asking this, maybe it's time to assess whether your actions still reflect your goals.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: When to Give Up, How to Accept Failure, and Why?

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Max effort/perceived breaking point + 20% seems like a good enough metric to distinguish "the signal of failure" (great way of putting it). The cost of quitting is also an interesting point.

Locked