Maybe you like your career more than you thought? What stops you from doing the same work as a consultant, on your hours?
About 2 years ago I downshifted from a job in an office where I told people what to do all day (doesn't mean they listened!), to a job working from home where a handful of people tell me what to do all day. I guess that is a loss of status, but the increase in quality of life has far, far offset it.
None of my family or close friends cared.
The interesting part was my old co-workers. The people I used to ascribe status to based upon their position, no longer had it. Their loss of power over such a major part of my life completely changed our relationship. The friends I had made, I kept.
IMO, if you remain engaged with life, other sources of status will naturally arise. The person you are today resulted in the status you have. That person is not gone just because you change what you are doing with your time.
Status and ERE
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mikenotspam
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:05 am
1. I've realized recently I need to already be careful with whatever "status" I project. Being self-employed, I don't have all the bits and pieces taken out of my paycheck like most people, and I literally just realized the other week that my take home disposable income, even after considering taxes and health insurance, is easily that of someone making $70-80k a year. While I don't actually make that much, my monthly "buying power" is at that level, and I realized I have it so much better than most people I deal with on a daily basis. My "status" in this regard is trying to be perceived as an average guy, or even just another musician who doesn't make very much.
2. Dutchgirl, so succinct and spot on: "I want my status to be high enough so that I can buy something in the shop or ask directions without being shunned. That's about it, when it comes to status."
3. This post reminds me of something Kevin Bacon said in an interview some time back. He actually had a makeup artist create a disguise for him so he could go out in public and just enjoy his time without being recognized. He said, though, that after awhile he stopped using it, because no one was nice to him.
2. Dutchgirl, so succinct and spot on: "I want my status to be high enough so that I can buy something in the shop or ask directions without being shunned. That's about it, when it comes to status."
3. This post reminds me of something Kevin Bacon said in an interview some time back. He actually had a makeup artist create a disguise for him so he could go out in public and just enjoy his time without being recognized. He said, though, that after awhile he stopped using it, because no one was nice to him.
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Canadian Dream
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:04 pm
- Contact:
Interesting discussion.
I can't recall who referred to this, but status is relative to what you feel about different areas of your life. I know I'm not impressed with titles and thus have never cared about having a corner office or those that do have it.
Yet there is a certain amount of things you need to blend into the rest of society. You do need a certain degree of 'status gear' like: nice pants and shirt depending on the office dress code norms. How much status gear you need will highly depend on where you live. I personally think most people blend in totally if you are within 1 standard deviation from the norm. At 2 standard deviations you might stick out to some people, but generally blend in. You only look out of place when you are at those fringes. So the trick to have some status is to stay off the fringe with just enough gear to blend in.
At least this is how I approach some things I have enough 'nice stuff' to blend into the crowd like dress shirts, but I have often got the gear for a fraction of the price of anyone else. Beyond that I accept that I'm different and don't need the status in other areas like my car...it is 11 years old and I don't care.
In the end you have to know what status things matter to you and work on those to an acceptable degree. I'm thinking after I ERE I'll get some really nice business cards made up with 'Private Wealth Manager' as a title. That way I will have something to talk about at parties...I just won't mention my client list is only me.
I can't recall who referred to this, but status is relative to what you feel about different areas of your life. I know I'm not impressed with titles and thus have never cared about having a corner office or those that do have it.
Yet there is a certain amount of things you need to blend into the rest of society. You do need a certain degree of 'status gear' like: nice pants and shirt depending on the office dress code norms. How much status gear you need will highly depend on where you live. I personally think most people blend in totally if you are within 1 standard deviation from the norm. At 2 standard deviations you might stick out to some people, but generally blend in. You only look out of place when you are at those fringes. So the trick to have some status is to stay off the fringe with just enough gear to blend in.
At least this is how I approach some things I have enough 'nice stuff' to blend into the crowd like dress shirts, but I have often got the gear for a fraction of the price of anyone else. Beyond that I accept that I'm different and don't need the status in other areas like my car...it is 11 years old and I don't care.
In the end you have to know what status things matter to you and work on those to an acceptable degree. I'm thinking after I ERE I'll get some really nice business cards made up with 'Private Wealth Manager' as a title. That way I will have something to talk about at parties...I just won't mention my client list is only me.
@brian:
I'm kind of late to the party here, but these are my thoughts.
Status is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Those who seek it want to use it to achieve something. Before you go any further down this path, you need to identify what that "something" is.
It may be an emotional thing: "I want other people to interact with me in a manner that makes me feel good." Whether your emotional drug of choice is admiration, respect, envy or affection (mine is affection) is largely immaterial... the issue is that, for better or for worse, some part of your self-image rests in how other people perceive - and therefore interact with - you.
I think you can find your answers if you back up a step or two and ask some QBQs:
(1) Your original post makes me think that when you say "status," you mean having key material possessions that only someone who had attained a certain level of wealth would possess. Is the reason for your desire of those possessions that you want people to see you and think, "That man is successful," or "That man is rich," or is it some other thought that you want them to have? Because pinning down the underlying thoughts you want others to have about you should give you more options for behavior other than just displaying your wealth.
(2) WHOM do you want to perceive you as having status? If you think this through you'll find that it won't be everyone. For instance, while no one wants to be thought repulsive by the opposite sex, a woman who dresses provocatively doesn't want to attract literally EVERY male. She has one or more targets in mind, even if her target audience is vague (e.g. "the cute guys in the room"). You probably don't care if your 85-year-old neighbor or his 11-year-old granddaughter think you've made it. The guys at the pub may be a different story. And, you will find that displaying wealth produces a negative response in certain people (jealousy, you think you're above them, "he's compensating", etc.), and the last thing you want to do if you truly want status is to inadvertently offend the very people you're trying to impress. If you can identify the group(s) of people you want to give positive thoughts about you TO, your task becomes much more manageable.
(3) What do you plan to do with your status once you've achieved it? Do you want it for its own sake because it feels good and/or protects you from scorn, or do you intend to use it as a form of social currency to get other needs met? If you intend to trade on it, you now have ANOTHER underlying goal to identify: what are those other needs?
Thanks for posting such a brave question! Good luck.
I'm kind of late to the party here, but these are my thoughts.
Status is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Those who seek it want to use it to achieve something. Before you go any further down this path, you need to identify what that "something" is.
It may be an emotional thing: "I want other people to interact with me in a manner that makes me feel good." Whether your emotional drug of choice is admiration, respect, envy or affection (mine is affection) is largely immaterial... the issue is that, for better or for worse, some part of your self-image rests in how other people perceive - and therefore interact with - you.
I think you can find your answers if you back up a step or two and ask some QBQs:
(1) Your original post makes me think that when you say "status," you mean having key material possessions that only someone who had attained a certain level of wealth would possess. Is the reason for your desire of those possessions that you want people to see you and think, "That man is successful," or "That man is rich," or is it some other thought that you want them to have? Because pinning down the underlying thoughts you want others to have about you should give you more options for behavior other than just displaying your wealth.
(2) WHOM do you want to perceive you as having status? If you think this through you'll find that it won't be everyone. For instance, while no one wants to be thought repulsive by the opposite sex, a woman who dresses provocatively doesn't want to attract literally EVERY male. She has one or more targets in mind, even if her target audience is vague (e.g. "the cute guys in the room"). You probably don't care if your 85-year-old neighbor or his 11-year-old granddaughter think you've made it. The guys at the pub may be a different story. And, you will find that displaying wealth produces a negative response in certain people (jealousy, you think you're above them, "he's compensating", etc.), and the last thing you want to do if you truly want status is to inadvertently offend the very people you're trying to impress. If you can identify the group(s) of people you want to give positive thoughts about you TO, your task becomes much more manageable.
(3) What do you plan to do with your status once you've achieved it? Do you want it for its own sake because it feels good and/or protects you from scorn, or do you intend to use it as a form of social currency to get other needs met? If you intend to trade on it, you now have ANOTHER underlying goal to identify: what are those other needs?
Thanks for posting such a brave question! Good luck.
How about career status or lifestyle status.
I think status refers to anything that makes you feel you are better than others.
Career status- where people think they are better than others because they have a "title" and
lifestyle status - eg you've ERE'd or you accumulate things
When I hear people express a need for this kind of status I question myself.
The more you can distance yourself from any type of status, the more you can ride the waves that life throws at us.
I think some people believe symbols of status show how they are better off than others, and therefore better people.
Where in reality most people I respect don't care, but if they do I keep my fingers crossed for them.
I like to think I mostly make choices which improve my own standard of living, which has nothing to do with what others think of me.
I think status refers to anything that makes you feel you are better than others.
Career status- where people think they are better than others because they have a "title" and
lifestyle status - eg you've ERE'd or you accumulate things
When I hear people express a need for this kind of status I question myself.
The more you can distance yourself from any type of status, the more you can ride the waves that life throws at us.
I think some people believe symbols of status show how they are better off than others, and therefore better people.
Where in reality most people I respect don't care, but if they do I keep my fingers crossed for them.
I like to think I mostly make choices which improve my own standard of living, which has nothing to do with what others think of me.
Oh look, quicksand! I wonder how deep it is….
I’ve quit several high-status jobs, the last one many years ago, so I offer some perspective for what it’s worth. The loss of status, at least initially, is real and can be felt. Status is something like flattery; those who casually dismiss it's effects as nothing probably haven’t experienced very much of it.
Your idea of being a teacher is good (I still do this very part time) but you will be labeled with the status of your subject; something to consider before committing. My only advice is that if you’re going to do it, do it, don’t pretend. And leave the trappings alone in the beginning. You don’t want to be the chartered accountant with a lion tamer hat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y
When choosing your next activity, remember that longevity conveys status. Lasting at something brings respect; it’s the reason businesses post the establishment date. This is a problem for those of us who like to quit and move on to something else. Having 5 jobs or businesses in 3 years just doesn’t look good, even in an age where it’s possible to work for 5 different companies in 3 years without ever leaving your desk.
Most of the adjustment/coping is psychological if not philosophical, and there is little need for props. I’ve always found it helpful to see things as they are, as much as it’s possible to me. Some observations from my own experience:
First, accept that job status is borrowed, like a rented tuxedo; it doesn’t actually belong to you any more than the company-issued Blackberry. Needing that job status is like giving hostages to your employer. And you will eventually lose that status one way or another. Better to get off the bus before the wheels come off, in other words, go out on top knowing that all glory is fleeting.
You will never have such high status that someone can’t look down on you or ridicule you. Even worse, many people play the status game by setting themselves up as the judge of others’ status without regard to their own. Always the critic and never the producer, and they are never impressed. An extreme example that sticks in my mind is a grossly obese fellow, provisioned with jelly donuts and a large regular, who stationed himself near the finish of the NYC marathon in order to berate stragglers, periodically shouting: Run you lazy a$$holes! This particular status shortcut, sitting in judgment of others, seems to have broad appeal. The motivation may be ego or envy; but it’s not necessary to confront it directly; just being aware of it helps avoid unnecessary pain.
That said, there is a place for some baseline status as social self-defense, which DutchGirl stated so well.
Another thing to remember is that status is mostly image, in other words, fake, and those who covet it the most often deserve it the least. People endure miserable lives to show others how happy and successful they are, and bankrupt themselves to show how wealthy they are. They suck up, humiliate and degrade themselves to show how powerful and important they are. They will deform themselves to show off. As an example, there are surgeons here who specialize in breaking and amputating portions of women’s toes so that they can fit into certain designer shoes. I wish I was kidding, but I’m not; it’s enough to make Cinderella’s sisters envious.
From what I understand of Columbian society, status is often dependent on family connections; who your parents are (and grandparents and great grandparents) rather than mere wealth. I could easily be wrong about this since I hear it from Columbians with multiple hyphenated surnames. And I don’t know whether impressive family ties will compromise security even more than a display of wealth.
Apologies for the long ramble, and wishing you the best with this!
I’ve quit several high-status jobs, the last one many years ago, so I offer some perspective for what it’s worth. The loss of status, at least initially, is real and can be felt. Status is something like flattery; those who casually dismiss it's effects as nothing probably haven’t experienced very much of it.
Your idea of being a teacher is good (I still do this very part time) but you will be labeled with the status of your subject; something to consider before committing. My only advice is that if you’re going to do it, do it, don’t pretend. And leave the trappings alone in the beginning. You don’t want to be the chartered accountant with a lion tamer hat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y
When choosing your next activity, remember that longevity conveys status. Lasting at something brings respect; it’s the reason businesses post the establishment date. This is a problem for those of us who like to quit and move on to something else. Having 5 jobs or businesses in 3 years just doesn’t look good, even in an age where it’s possible to work for 5 different companies in 3 years without ever leaving your desk.
Most of the adjustment/coping is psychological if not philosophical, and there is little need for props. I’ve always found it helpful to see things as they are, as much as it’s possible to me. Some observations from my own experience:
First, accept that job status is borrowed, like a rented tuxedo; it doesn’t actually belong to you any more than the company-issued Blackberry. Needing that job status is like giving hostages to your employer. And you will eventually lose that status one way or another. Better to get off the bus before the wheels come off, in other words, go out on top knowing that all glory is fleeting.
You will never have such high status that someone can’t look down on you or ridicule you. Even worse, many people play the status game by setting themselves up as the judge of others’ status without regard to their own. Always the critic and never the producer, and they are never impressed. An extreme example that sticks in my mind is a grossly obese fellow, provisioned with jelly donuts and a large regular, who stationed himself near the finish of the NYC marathon in order to berate stragglers, periodically shouting: Run you lazy a$$holes! This particular status shortcut, sitting in judgment of others, seems to have broad appeal. The motivation may be ego or envy; but it’s not necessary to confront it directly; just being aware of it helps avoid unnecessary pain.
That said, there is a place for some baseline status as social self-defense, which DutchGirl stated so well.
Another thing to remember is that status is mostly image, in other words, fake, and those who covet it the most often deserve it the least. People endure miserable lives to show others how happy and successful they are, and bankrupt themselves to show how wealthy they are. They suck up, humiliate and degrade themselves to show how powerful and important they are. They will deform themselves to show off. As an example, there are surgeons here who specialize in breaking and amputating portions of women’s toes so that they can fit into certain designer shoes. I wish I was kidding, but I’m not; it’s enough to make Cinderella’s sisters envious.
From what I understand of Columbian society, status is often dependent on family connections; who your parents are (and grandparents and great grandparents) rather than mere wealth. I could easily be wrong about this since I hear it from Columbians with multiple hyphenated surnames. And I don’t know whether impressive family ties will compromise security even more than a display of wealth.
Apologies for the long ramble, and wishing you the best with this!
At Canadian Dream – There is much wisdom in your points about standard deviations. It reminds me of the psychological idea of comparisons – I am happy and content with my life if I perceive it as slightly better than those around me. I have often chosen to leave in neighborhoods one or two levels beneath what I can afford, then I only compare myself to others who are less well off. I think in my current expatriate job, I live in the best neighborhood in the city. When I go to Colombia, I’ll live in lower middle class to middle class neighborhood. My guess is that after some period of adjustment, then I’ll begin to compare myself with those folks rather than the higher income people I now have around me.
At G and K, Here goes me working through your recommendations. (For those of you who don’t want to participate in the counseling section skip this part
)Of the emotional elements you listed, I think the emotional thing I need is admiration. I think it has very little to do with material possessions b/c I own so few and want to get rid of what I already have. I think I want others to think I am successful. Currently, I want them to think I am successful in my career, but I need to think more about things I would like to be successful at when I don’t have a job. Being successful at being a father for instance. Who do I want to think that I am successful – I would say family members, old acquaintances, and new people I meet. The weird part about that is that these occasions happen infrequently; therefore, the feeling of adequacy or inadequacy would occur infrequently. What would I do with status once I have achieved it? Simply protect me from feeling bad. Hmmm….my inner Buddhist is very interested in this conversation.
Hoplite – I really like the idea of my current status being borrowed. It certainly is. I also really like the line “People endure miserable lives to show others how happy and successful they are….” Yep that’s me sometimes.
Many thanks for all the comments. There is really a lot of material to ponder.
At G and K, Here goes me working through your recommendations. (For those of you who don’t want to participate in the counseling section skip this part
)Of the emotional elements you listed, I think the emotional thing I need is admiration. I think it has very little to do with material possessions b/c I own so few and want to get rid of what I already have. I think I want others to think I am successful. Currently, I want them to think I am successful in my career, but I need to think more about things I would like to be successful at when I don’t have a job. Being successful at being a father for instance. Who do I want to think that I am successful – I would say family members, old acquaintances, and new people I meet. The weird part about that is that these occasions happen infrequently; therefore, the feeling of adequacy or inadequacy would occur infrequently. What would I do with status once I have achieved it? Simply protect me from feeling bad. Hmmm….my inner Buddhist is very interested in this conversation.Hoplite – I really like the idea of my current status being borrowed. It certainly is. I also really like the line “People endure miserable lives to show others how happy and successful they are….” Yep that’s me sometimes.
Many thanks for all the comments. There is really a lot of material to ponder.
My wife and I "pride ourselves" in not caring what others think of us. (As Felix points out we are full of shit and the opposite is a very human condition. We likely do care but just no longer crave admiration from those based on spending) In the last couple of years this has had to do with dispensing of many consumer items. During this process many peers and even family members just did not get it. Two people have asked me if we are selling everything because we are divorcing. I thought we were relieving ourselves of status. That's not really true. We are justing adjusting status.
Several above have mentioned that the benefits of an ERE lifestyle are the ultimate status. I certainly agree. Although scaled differently, our more recent status is gaining traction and likely more prestigious in the eyes of family and peers (that matter) than previous status.
The David Foster Wallace commencement speech does nail the concept of worshiping or craving especially as applied to status. His talk also reminds one to organize their perspective which can be used to evaluate status.
@ Hoplite your explanations of the makings of status are very wise. Longevity is the point that I really never would have considered. Length of stay is so obvious but I would have never included in such an explanation as one of the main points. Longevity is key to status in almost any work or social construct I can think of. We often give credit to longevity on this forum (Person X was FI at 26 and has been doing Y for 22 years). It really is proof that 95% of "success" is just showing up!
Several above have mentioned that the benefits of an ERE lifestyle are the ultimate status. I certainly agree. Although scaled differently, our more recent status is gaining traction and likely more prestigious in the eyes of family and peers (that matter) than previous status.
The David Foster Wallace commencement speech does nail the concept of worshiping or craving especially as applied to status. His talk also reminds one to organize their perspective which can be used to evaluate status.
@ Hoplite your explanations of the makings of status are very wise. Longevity is the point that I really never would have considered. Length of stay is so obvious but I would have never included in such an explanation as one of the main points. Longevity is key to status in almost any work or social construct I can think of. We often give credit to longevity on this forum (Person X was FI at 26 and has been doing Y for 22 years). It really is proof that 95% of "success" is just showing up!
@brian, can I ask your age? I ask because in my mid-20s-mid 30s, this issue of career status was really huge for me.
I'm in my early 40s now, with three kids, and care far less. I work a 3 day week, benefitted job at a university where my status is fairly low -- but the work is easy, we get great benefits, 5 weeks paid vacation/personal time, etc.
10-15 years ago I wouldn't have wanted this job. Now, I think it's the greatest thing EVER, short of retirement.
So some of the need for career status, or defining yourself by what you do/did, may fade over time. It might feel urgent *now*, but keeping a wider perspective could help.
I'm in my early 40s now, with three kids, and care far less. I work a 3 day week, benefitted job at a university where my status is fairly low -- but the work is easy, we get great benefits, 5 weeks paid vacation/personal time, etc.
10-15 years ago I wouldn't have wanted this job. Now, I think it's the greatest thing EVER, short of retirement.
So some of the need for career status, or defining yourself by what you do/did, may fade over time. It might feel urgent *now*, but keeping a wider perspective could help.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
Everyone is effected by Status
Minority groups feel it the most. They describe the idea as "being invisible". Ask the elderly, ask the very young, ask migrants, ask many minority groups what there biggest issue are and invariably they will discuss emotions regarding somehow not being part of community.
My point here is that most of these discussions revolve around a high ideal idea of status ie cars, houses, jobs, pay but the shocking reality of 'low status' to many in society is directly correlated to depression, poverty, substance abuse, divorse, domestic violence etc etc.
Being aware of our innate need to be respected, listened too, recognised for our abilities etc are all status related. Those who think status is not important probably dont realise how bad it can get.
Wise to accpet the role status plays in people lives. That way you can also treat those with low status in more dignified ways.
Minority groups feel it the most. They describe the idea as "being invisible". Ask the elderly, ask the very young, ask migrants, ask many minority groups what there biggest issue are and invariably they will discuss emotions regarding somehow not being part of community.
My point here is that most of these discussions revolve around a high ideal idea of status ie cars, houses, jobs, pay but the shocking reality of 'low status' to many in society is directly correlated to depression, poverty, substance abuse, divorse, domestic violence etc etc.
Being aware of our innate need to be respected, listened too, recognised for our abilities etc are all status related. Those who think status is not important probably dont realise how bad it can get.
Wise to accpet the role status plays in people lives. That way you can also treat those with low status in more dignified ways.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
Great post, aussie.
I think anyone who nonchalantly says they don't care about status isn't being completely honest with themselves and haven't really experienced a massive loss of status.
A good way to experience this is to live in another country where you look different for a while. You see what it's like to have no status, and it is no picnic. This is also a pretty big issue for OP, if s/he plans on being an expat in Colombia and sticks out. Of course, another big issue is how Colombians treat foreigners.
I think anyone who nonchalantly says they don't care about status isn't being completely honest with themselves and haven't really experienced a massive loss of status.
A good way to experience this is to live in another country where you look different for a while. You see what it's like to have no status, and it is no picnic. This is also a pretty big issue for OP, if s/he plans on being an expat in Colombia and sticks out. Of course, another big issue is how Colombians treat foreigners.
Secretwealth - I'd like to reverse your assumptions on losing status.
There indeed are those people who really don't care much about status at all....for the exact same reason you mention above....a sudden dramatic loss. I can only speak for myself, but getting a very rare type of cancer at 24 and spending a year in and out of a hospital has a way of changing the way you value things. When you get less than a 50/50 shot at being around 5 years I promise you, letting strangers know you have money through showing off becomes comical.
I now currently live in China and have zero status. I build relationships and gain trust, but the outward showing of money as the OP describes is in my opinion quite childish. It sounds to me that they are concerned about being treated like a big fish (in a smaller, significantly poorer pond). Visit any SE asian or SA country and you will find these guys a dime a dozen. 2 week millionaires.
The OP wants to "demonstrate his wealth". If that doesn't scream insecurity I don't know what does. I would ask myself why I feel this need and work on that. Something tells me with that solved the need to show off will dissipate.
Sorry if this is harsh but something about "I have a high status job and need to be recognized" irks me.
There indeed are those people who really don't care much about status at all....for the exact same reason you mention above....a sudden dramatic loss. I can only speak for myself, but getting a very rare type of cancer at 24 and spending a year in and out of a hospital has a way of changing the way you value things. When you get less than a 50/50 shot at being around 5 years I promise you, letting strangers know you have money through showing off becomes comical.
I now currently live in China and have zero status. I build relationships and gain trust, but the outward showing of money as the OP describes is in my opinion quite childish. It sounds to me that they are concerned about being treated like a big fish (in a smaller, significantly poorer pond). Visit any SE asian or SA country and you will find these guys a dime a dozen. 2 week millionaires.
The OP wants to "demonstrate his wealth". If that doesn't scream insecurity I don't know what does. I would ask myself why I feel this need and work on that. Something tells me with that solved the need to show off will dissipate.
Sorry if this is harsh but something about "I have a high status job and need to be recognized" irks me.
Wow..... I am so glad this one got bumped because I missed it the first time around.
Status produces gratification. In many ways ERE is about delaying and redefining what produces gratification.
For anyone who has had status and voluntarily gave it up to purse other goals, finding new ways to acquire status is (IMO) the largest hurdle to making the transition. As Hoplite said above, "Status is something like flattery; those who casually dismiss it's effects as nothing probably haven’t experienced very much of it."
No matter how many times we say we don't care what others think.... the truth is, we do. When we voluntarily walk away from the things others see as valuable we are insulting the things that motivate them most. Sure, their motivations may be absurd. Doesn't matter. Trading in a BMW for a bike is insulting to the guy who loves his BMW.
I believe this is the reason so few friendships survive the transition to ERE.
For us, ERE has freed up the time to pursue the things we really want to pursue. Once we began doing them well, status followed. A whole different kind of status.... but status nonetheless.
Events where our old and new lives collide are challenging. Suddenly being looked down upon by those who once looked up... it isn't easy.
Status produces gratification. In many ways ERE is about delaying and redefining what produces gratification.
For anyone who has had status and voluntarily gave it up to purse other goals, finding new ways to acquire status is (IMO) the largest hurdle to making the transition. As Hoplite said above, "Status is something like flattery; those who casually dismiss it's effects as nothing probably haven’t experienced very much of it."
No matter how many times we say we don't care what others think.... the truth is, we do. When we voluntarily walk away from the things others see as valuable we are insulting the things that motivate them most. Sure, their motivations may be absurd. Doesn't matter. Trading in a BMW for a bike is insulting to the guy who loves his BMW.
I believe this is the reason so few friendships survive the transition to ERE.
For us, ERE has freed up the time to pursue the things we really want to pursue. Once we began doing them well, status followed. A whole different kind of status.... but status nonetheless.
Events where our old and new lives collide are challenging. Suddenly being looked down upon by those who once looked up... it isn't easy.
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Christopherjart
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:03 am
- Contact:
Here status is based on race, income, college level completed, the university you studied at, the location of your house, your type of car, the clothes you wear and your last name.
Personally, I don't care about status. Yes, it is nice to get special attention, but I want attention for who I am not how handsome I might look in designer clothes.
I do find somewhat important the socio-economic level of those I spend my time with because here behavior and income seem to go together. The poor here normally don't read, are very rude, play very loud music, don't educate their children, etc.
This is of course in general, but since the levels are very fixed in behavior I seem to get on with middle class people the best. They are usually more educated and more cultured without being snobs.
People from wealthy families here seem to only think about how to show off their family and typically they're very lazy and ignorant of the concept of work since they typically just live off of their parents. They don't normally save anything, but instead they spend all of their money on clothes and expensive bars. I suppose that's why wealth normally doesn't last more than 2 generations in a family.
I do find the lack of responsibility in those of any level to be annoying. One "friend" works for his family's small business. He went to a beach with a friend for holy week and charged the plan tickets and everything else on his credit cards. He also told me that he bought a lot of designer clothes. He's 30 (6 years younger) and doesn't have any savings or emergency money.
My ex-roommate from last year (one year older) would always bemoan his existence and he loves status. He didn't have the money so he probably owes at least 30,000 pesos in credit card debt to pay for things he "had to have" (LCD tv, Playstation3, home theater, etc.) and then says he doesn't have money to pay for a tank of gas for cooking or heating water for showers. He wouldn't do anything to "fix" his life so I got tired of being brought down to his level and moved out of that place. I know I haven't had good roommates since, but I'd rather find good roommates and not suffer.
Personally, I don't care about status. Yes, it is nice to get special attention, but I want attention for who I am not how handsome I might look in designer clothes.
I do find somewhat important the socio-economic level of those I spend my time with because here behavior and income seem to go together. The poor here normally don't read, are very rude, play very loud music, don't educate their children, etc.
This is of course in general, but since the levels are very fixed in behavior I seem to get on with middle class people the best. They are usually more educated and more cultured without being snobs.
People from wealthy families here seem to only think about how to show off their family and typically they're very lazy and ignorant of the concept of work since they typically just live off of their parents. They don't normally save anything, but instead they spend all of their money on clothes and expensive bars. I suppose that's why wealth normally doesn't last more than 2 generations in a family.
I do find the lack of responsibility in those of any level to be annoying. One "friend" works for his family's small business. He went to a beach with a friend for holy week and charged the plan tickets and everything else on his credit cards. He also told me that he bought a lot of designer clothes. He's 30 (6 years younger) and doesn't have any savings or emergency money.
My ex-roommate from last year (one year older) would always bemoan his existence and he loves status. He didn't have the money so he probably owes at least 30,000 pesos in credit card debt to pay for things he "had to have" (LCD tv, Playstation3, home theater, etc.) and then says he doesn't have money to pay for a tank of gas for cooking or heating water for showers. He wouldn't do anything to "fix" his life so I got tired of being brought down to his level and moved out of that place. I know I haven't had good roommates since, but I'd rather find good roommates and not suffer.
Hi Christopher - I found your reply very interesting. The way you describe status in Mexico seems very much the way I would describe class in the southern united states. In the South, class is important and I have long been interested how it affects social relationships. I wonder how class will effect ER? My guess it that it will make my choice incomprehensible to others of my class until about age 50. After 50,it will probably be a status symbol b/c early retirement at 50 seems to be much more accepted. Also, I am on another long vacation in the states again and I am noticing both how I perceive myself and how others perceive me not working. For example, when I go to yoga class at 10:00 AM on a bicycle versus going to yoga class at 5:30 PM in my father's Volvo. The first situation is out of place for a 40 year old male. The second is the epitome of normal for an educated upper middle class liberal male.
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Christopherjart
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I really doubt there is a big difference between status here and most of the USA. At least in movies people seem to care a lot about having their nice car and big (to me huge McMansion) house in the right neighborhoods.
I'm guessing that most people still assume white people to be of a higher class than latino or black people. I doubt it is conscious there in most states, but I'm pretty sure most people still make certain assumptions.
The only thing that surprised me here was class instead of status. Social-economic class in the USA seems to be more flexible. One's manners and general behavior seem to have to do more with the family than the family's household income when growing up. Here it is pretty set. If someone is from a specific income level, their manners and behaviors are almost guaranteed to be the same as everyone else in their group. I had trouble believing it at first, but over and over I saw evidence I didn't want to believe.
I'm guessing that most people still assume white people to be of a higher class than latino or black people. I doubt it is conscious there in most states, but I'm pretty sure most people still make certain assumptions.
The only thing that surprised me here was class instead of status. Social-economic class in the USA seems to be more flexible. One's manners and general behavior seem to have to do more with the family than the family's household income when growing up. Here it is pretty set. If someone is from a specific income level, their manners and behaviors are almost guaranteed to be the same as everyone else in their group. I had trouble believing it at first, but over and over I saw evidence I didn't want to believe.
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secretwealth
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jacob
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I like the discussion on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_status
In particular the observation that status depends on who you talk to ... scientists are highly regarded by those with less than average levels of education ("Wow you're a scientist!") but by themselves (with overly much education) not so much ("Haha, so is that a real doctor or just a phd?")
Also, it depends on where you are ... for example, someone might have a low status in their job (e.g. seasonal apple picker) but a high status in their avocation (e.g. also three times national champion in arm wrestling).
Money is funny ... because more status seems to be attached to spending it than actually having it. Maybe a peacock phenomena?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_status
In particular the observation that status depends on who you talk to ... scientists are highly regarded by those with less than average levels of education ("Wow you're a scientist!") but by themselves (with overly much education) not so much ("Haha, so is that a real doctor or just a phd?")
Also, it depends on where you are ... for example, someone might have a low status in their job (e.g. seasonal apple picker) but a high status in their avocation (e.g. also three times national champion in arm wrestling).
Money is funny ... because more status seems to be attached to spending it than actually having it. Maybe a peacock phenomena?