7WB5- Take 3
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@Sarouel "get out of Dodge" is just a phrase meaning "get out of town." (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/get_out_of_Dodge)
@7, dealing with that many psychotic breakdowns sounds like a nightmare. Glad you're stepping away.
I know this is dark, but do you think your sister can be rehabilitated? Is she a lost cause? I ask because I wonder the same thing about my mother sometimes. How do you know when to give up hope?
The book "Algorithms to Live By" provided me with an interesting approach to tackling all that.
They describe an algorithm called "Exponential Backoff" and how it helped speed up the early internet. In essence, this just means that if a transmission fails, you increase the average delay before trying to send another message. (networking masters, please don't yell at me for that simplification)
"Beyond just collision avoidance, Exponential Backoff has become the default way of handling almost all cases of networking failure or unreliability."
They continue on to describe how this idea helped a friend of theirs deal with a tough problem (that might sound all too familiar) -- whether to offer shelter and financial assistance to a family member with a history of drug addiction.
"She couldn't bear to give up hope that he would turn things around, and couldn't bear the thought of turning her back on him for good. But she also couldn't bring herself to do all that it required to have him in her house, when at some mysterious and abrupt moment he would take all the money and disappear, only to call again several weeks later and ask to be forgiven."
"Exponential Backoff isn't a magic panacea in cases like this, but it does offer a possible way forward. Requiring an exponentially increasing period of sobriety, for instance, would offer a disincentive to violate the house rules again. It would make the family member prove every more assiduously that he was serious about getting better, and would protect the host from the otherwise continuous stress of the cycle. Perhaps most importantly, the host would never have to tell her relative that she'd given up on him for good or that he was beyond redemption. It offers a way to have finite patience and infinite mercy. Maybe we don't have to choose."
I've been trying to apply some of these principles to my situation and find it soothing. Best of luck with everything.
@7, dealing with that many psychotic breakdowns sounds like a nightmare. Glad you're stepping away.
I know this is dark, but do you think your sister can be rehabilitated? Is she a lost cause? I ask because I wonder the same thing about my mother sometimes. How do you know when to give up hope?
The book "Algorithms to Live By" provided me with an interesting approach to tackling all that.
They describe an algorithm called "Exponential Backoff" and how it helped speed up the early internet. In essence, this just means that if a transmission fails, you increase the average delay before trying to send another message. (networking masters, please don't yell at me for that simplification)
"Beyond just collision avoidance, Exponential Backoff has become the default way of handling almost all cases of networking failure or unreliability."
They continue on to describe how this idea helped a friend of theirs deal with a tough problem (that might sound all too familiar) -- whether to offer shelter and financial assistance to a family member with a history of drug addiction.
"She couldn't bear to give up hope that he would turn things around, and couldn't bear the thought of turning her back on him for good. But she also couldn't bring herself to do all that it required to have him in her house, when at some mysterious and abrupt moment he would take all the money and disappear, only to call again several weeks later and ask to be forgiven."
"Exponential Backoff isn't a magic panacea in cases like this, but it does offer a possible way forward. Requiring an exponentially increasing period of sobriety, for instance, would offer a disincentive to violate the house rules again. It would make the family member prove every more assiduously that he was serious about getting better, and would protect the host from the otherwise continuous stress of the cycle. Perhaps most importantly, the host would never have to tell her relative that she'd given up on him for good or that he was beyond redemption. It offers a way to have finite patience and infinite mercy. Maybe we don't have to choose."
I've been trying to apply some of these principles to my situation and find it soothing. Best of luck with everything.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
My mother is batshit crazy. After years of emotional and mental abuse, I left her to fend for herself. I should have crawled for the hills the second the doctor yanked me out of her, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
Taking care of the mentally ill is one of two things: (1) a profession for which you are trained and get paid (2) a slow suicide confused for altruism/empathy/love/feelings of personal responsibility.
I vote for cut and run.
Same with the garden. Sunken cost fallacy is self-perpetuating quicksand.
As they say, pick up your mats and move on.
Addendum:
Ricky Nelson knows about failed garden events (Madison Square in his instance) and how to move on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAHR7_VZdRw
Taking care of the mentally ill is one of two things: (1) a profession for which you are trained and get paid (2) a slow suicide confused for altruism/empathy/love/feelings of personal responsibility.
I vote for cut and run.
Same with the garden. Sunken cost fallacy is self-perpetuating quicksand.
As they say, pick up your mats and move on.
Addendum:
Ricky Nelson knows about failed garden events (Madison Square in his instance) and how to move on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAHR7_VZdRw
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@Sarouel:
"Get outta Dodge" is urban slang based on frequent use of phrase by the Marshall on the television series "Gunsmoke." I was referencing it due to another Wild West movie phrase "There ain't enough room in this town for the two of us." However, I did do a brief experiment with living in my camper recently, so it makes sense that you thought that maybe I was living in a Dodge Caravan. The funny thing is that you likely unconsciously did me a service. The old lady who lives next door to the apartment I shared with my sister, before she went crazy and kicked/locked me out, helped me get into the window yesterday, and she told me that I should have said "No. You get out!" to my sister. Wimp-o-rama. Always fleeing instead of fighting. Can't "Marshall" my internal forces. Weak in adult masculine energy.
Anyways, I can't leave the permaculture world for the same reason I can't leave the calculus world. I would have to excise part of my brain in order to do that. I could spend the rest of my life writing public service ad copy for the petroleum fracking industry and just putting coins in a vending machine to feed myself, but I would still be thinking in terms of permaculture. I wouldn't be thinking that the Petroleum and Cheetos just magically appeared here and there like the candy Santa put in my stocking.
The problem is that I am currently residing 45 minutes by car away from my garden, and maintaining a garden at that distance is probably much worse than eating processed food out of a vending machine in terms of resource waste. The amount of money I am spending in order to transport myself back and forth just to do simple maintenance is evidence of this. But, I am loathe to resume residence closer to my garden, because I want to avoid having to take responsibility or authority over the gigantic disaster my sister is creating, and I doubt I will be able to avoid it if I am nearby. Pretty much it is like if a dog you owned went rabid and was wandering around loose in the vicinity of your homestead.
NOTE: I typed most of this before quickly reading additional posts from Smashter and Jason. Thanks and I will reply when I return from regaling my poor DS28 with the details of the most recent shit-storm over lunch.
"Get outta Dodge" is urban slang based on frequent use of phrase by the Marshall on the television series "Gunsmoke." I was referencing it due to another Wild West movie phrase "There ain't enough room in this town for the two of us." However, I did do a brief experiment with living in my camper recently, so it makes sense that you thought that maybe I was living in a Dodge Caravan. The funny thing is that you likely unconsciously did me a service. The old lady who lives next door to the apartment I shared with my sister, before she went crazy and kicked/locked me out, helped me get into the window yesterday, and she told me that I should have said "No. You get out!" to my sister. Wimp-o-rama. Always fleeing instead of fighting. Can't "Marshall" my internal forces. Weak in adult masculine energy.
Anyways, I can't leave the permaculture world for the same reason I can't leave the calculus world. I would have to excise part of my brain in order to do that. I could spend the rest of my life writing public service ad copy for the petroleum fracking industry and just putting coins in a vending machine to feed myself, but I would still be thinking in terms of permaculture. I wouldn't be thinking that the Petroleum and Cheetos just magically appeared here and there like the candy Santa put in my stocking.
The problem is that I am currently residing 45 minutes by car away from my garden, and maintaining a garden at that distance is probably much worse than eating processed food out of a vending machine in terms of resource waste. The amount of money I am spending in order to transport myself back and forth just to do simple maintenance is evidence of this. But, I am loathe to resume residence closer to my garden, because I want to avoid having to take responsibility or authority over the gigantic disaster my sister is creating, and I doubt I will be able to avoid it if I am nearby. Pretty much it is like if a dog you owned went rabid and was wandering around loose in the vicinity of your homestead.
NOTE: I typed most of this before quickly reading additional posts from Smashter and Jason. Thanks and I will reply when I return from regaling my poor DS28 with the details of the most recent shit-storm over lunch.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
Hold it - are you a dude?
If so, this sibling relationship is kind of Games Of Thronish, no?
If so, this sibling relationship is kind of Games Of Thronish, no?
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
She's definitely a woman.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
Why don't you just abandon your garden? Compost piles will be processed, any plants without a drip system will die unless they're natives. Doesn't sound like it's worth your peace of mind. If the plants can't be left, transplant any favorites to your new home or bring a cutting to let them grow into their new space.
It sounds like your body is screaming for some distance from her.
It sounds like your body is screaming for some distance from her.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
You need BF and you need some space. The permaculture part is who you are not where you are, so move on and 'bloom where you're planted' as they say.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
Phew.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@Smashter:
I read the first chapter or two of "Algorithms to Live By" last week, but didn't get to exponential backoff. Sounds like a reasonable plan. The complication in the case of my sister is that she is also a 2x cancer survivor. She has always been pretty borderline, mostly tending towards major depression, but now it is combined with an arm long list of pharmaceuticals and jumbo variety pack of self-medication. She has become completely paranoid delusional, and when she drinks it is like the alcohol attaches a loudspeaker to her insanity. She is also 50 years old, so the question of whether she can be rehabilitated might be more accurately, sadly rephrased as something like "Is it possible that her brain is the part of her body that has been rendered most fragile and likely to fail?"
@Jason:
My mother is also mentally ill (bi-polar 2.) I am a wee bit cyclothymic myself. I'm not a dude, my E-Z model assigns psychological tasks such as "enact and maintain sturdy boundaries" to the Adult-Masculine-Quadrant.
I did a pretty good job of boundary maintenance today. My sister called from jail while I was at lunch with my son, and she started right off on a diatribe about how it was my fault she was in jail because I told a police officer that she was an alcoholic, and why haven't I done everything she wants me to do while she is in jail, and I just said "You have two choices. Either you act like somebody who wants to get the sort of help I am willing to offer, or I hang up the phone right now." Twenty seconds of silence, and then she calmed down and we had a reasonable discussion to the extent that you can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who is delusional. I also arranged for a neighbor to take care of the dogs.
@sky and Felipe:
I can't just ride off into the sunset without making arrangements for the care of the garden because it rains enough in Michigan that everything will keep growing without my presence (ironically, even much better than average because of the way my beds are designed to be water retaining), and I will likely end up in violation of the 5 Inch Weed Ordinance or be cited for not shoveling the sidewalks if I am gone in the winter. So, absentee carrying costs might be something like $40/month paid to some responsible kid. Not a huge deal, so likely I will make some arrangements along these lines rather than outright selling right away.
@jennypenny:
I don't know if it is so much that I need BF, more like "the pattern I have observed in myself is that I almost always seem to have a BF, so perhaps I should make plans for future-me with that in mind." OTOH, "space" does seem like a definite NEED at the moment.
I read the first chapter or two of "Algorithms to Live By" last week, but didn't get to exponential backoff. Sounds like a reasonable plan. The complication in the case of my sister is that she is also a 2x cancer survivor. She has always been pretty borderline, mostly tending towards major depression, but now it is combined with an arm long list of pharmaceuticals and jumbo variety pack of self-medication. She has become completely paranoid delusional, and when she drinks it is like the alcohol attaches a loudspeaker to her insanity. She is also 50 years old, so the question of whether she can be rehabilitated might be more accurately, sadly rephrased as something like "Is it possible that her brain is the part of her body that has been rendered most fragile and likely to fail?"
@Jason:
My mother is also mentally ill (bi-polar 2.) I am a wee bit cyclothymic myself. I'm not a dude, my E-Z model assigns psychological tasks such as "enact and maintain sturdy boundaries" to the Adult-Masculine-Quadrant.
I did a pretty good job of boundary maintenance today. My sister called from jail while I was at lunch with my son, and she started right off on a diatribe about how it was my fault she was in jail because I told a police officer that she was an alcoholic, and why haven't I done everything she wants me to do while she is in jail, and I just said "You have two choices. Either you act like somebody who wants to get the sort of help I am willing to offer, or I hang up the phone right now." Twenty seconds of silence, and then she calmed down and we had a reasonable discussion to the extent that you can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who is delusional. I also arranged for a neighbor to take care of the dogs.
@sky and Felipe:
I can't just ride off into the sunset without making arrangements for the care of the garden because it rains enough in Michigan that everything will keep growing without my presence (ironically, even much better than average because of the way my beds are designed to be water retaining), and I will likely end up in violation of the 5 Inch Weed Ordinance or be cited for not shoveling the sidewalks if I am gone in the winter. So, absentee carrying costs might be something like $40/month paid to some responsible kid. Not a huge deal, so likely I will make some arrangements along these lines rather than outright selling right away.
@jennypenny:
I don't know if it is so much that I need BF, more like "the pattern I have observed in myself is that I almost always seem to have a BF, so perhaps I should make plans for future-me with that in mind." OTOH, "space" does seem like a definite NEED at the moment.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
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Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@classical_Liberal:
I like your suggestion because a "fresh slate" always cheers me up, but I will have to ponder a bit to figure out how what you are suggesting would result in a different answer or plan than what I have already been doing.
I know that I am easily distracted, and I don't have endless time remaining to do all the things that I want to do. That is why I decided to divide my remaining life up into 7 year (long time for me, but not endless) chunks. The primary objective of this chunk (2015-2022, 50-57) was supposed to be "complete major tangible creative project" and "achieve FI." I was not supposed to make solid commitments for any future time-chunks/life-skins, but I had some rough notion of one primarily devoted to travel-with-objectives (64-71?) and one primarily devoted to writing gardening essays from a position of wisdom I have not yet attained (78-85?) Lately I have been thinking that maybe I would try marriage again when I am 57, but I don't know if I could find somebody agreeable and attractive enough, but maybe I will focus on tantric sex from 57-64 instead. If I make it past 85, and my maybe-future-husband is dead, I will probably spend my last years eating all the pastry I want, and sculpting large male nudes based on memory. Maybe 71-78 will be my prime grand-parenting years, if I have any grand-children. Something like that anyways. The fact that tantric sex and eating all the pastry I want are mutually exclusive has already been accounted for, and my grandchildren can travel and/or garden with me.
I like your suggestion because a "fresh slate" always cheers me up, but I will have to ponder a bit to figure out how what you are suggesting would result in a different answer or plan than what I have already been doing.
I know that I am easily distracted, and I don't have endless time remaining to do all the things that I want to do. That is why I decided to divide my remaining life up into 7 year (long time for me, but not endless) chunks. The primary objective of this chunk (2015-2022, 50-57) was supposed to be "complete major tangible creative project" and "achieve FI." I was not supposed to make solid commitments for any future time-chunks/life-skins, but I had some rough notion of one primarily devoted to travel-with-objectives (64-71?) and one primarily devoted to writing gardening essays from a position of wisdom I have not yet attained (78-85?) Lately I have been thinking that maybe I would try marriage again when I am 57, but I don't know if I could find somebody agreeable and attractive enough, but maybe I will focus on tantric sex from 57-64 instead. If I make it past 85, and my maybe-future-husband is dead, I will probably spend my last years eating all the pastry I want, and sculpting large male nudes based on memory. Maybe 71-78 will be my prime grand-parenting years, if I have any grand-children. Something like that anyways. The fact that tantric sex and eating all the pastry I want are mutually exclusive has already been accounted for, and my grandchildren can travel and/or garden with me.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
I've never had tantric sex. It seems like something for which you need to be highly flexible, which I am not. I am in pretty much in shape but I don't bend. When I die, rigor mortis won't be too much of a change.I also haven't had it because its something that Sting is always talking about and I hate Sting. I like The Police but I hate Sting. Its hard to explain. Some people are easier to like within a group setting, others outside a group setting. I liked Sting when he was around other people and I didn't realize what an insufferable, tantric sex loving douchebag he really was. He wouldn't stand up for Paul McCartney when everyone else was giving him a standing ovation. I'm not a huge Paul McCartney fan either but I would stand up for the guy, especially if everyone else was. I just don't understand the guy's taste in women. I mean you are a billionaire and you marry a gold digging one legged chick? What's with that. Ringo had hotter chicks and he's the dopey looking drummer.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
"The fact that tantric sex and eating all the pastry I want are mutually exclusive"
Citation needed. This is not inline with my experience.
Citation needed. This is not inline with my experience.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@Jason:
Agree. I also don't like Eddie Vedder or Bono.
@Felipe:
Okay, maybe not pure mutual exclusivity, but IME, shibari and a belly full of cherry cheese danish do not mix well. I think I lost around 25 lbs. the first 3 months I was in training. I typed "tantric", but I really mean something closer to S&M, but more ambient and less rigid, with some aspects of ecstatic union, but more sense of humor.
Agree. I also don't like Eddie Vedder or Bono.
@Felipe:
Okay, maybe not pure mutual exclusivity, but IME, shibari and a belly full of cherry cheese danish do not mix well. I think I lost around 25 lbs. the first 3 months I was in training. I typed "tantric", but I really mean something closer to S&M, but more ambient and less rigid, with some aspects of ecstatic union, but more sense of humor.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
Okay, that line of thought managed to distract me for a couple hours. I really have nothing tying me down, and I do have a mixed bag of skills/experience/credentials that ought to at least garner me something like 2x minimum wage just about anywhere I plant myself next.
To Do List
1) Arrange for garden-space caretaker.
2) Friend-zone current BF (over-due move.)
3) Seek lucrative employment/ inexpensive housing in new locale.
To Do List
1) Arrange for garden-space caretaker.
2) Friend-zone current BF (over-due move.)
3) Seek lucrative employment/ inexpensive housing in new locale.
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
When Bono sings, its beautiful. When he talks, its the defense for justifiable homicide.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
If you really want to understand what a self-righteous douche Bono actually is, watch this:
http://www.povertyinc.org
If you want to know why we tolerate it, watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2puvI4IfG0
http://www.povertyinc.org
If you want to know why we tolerate it, watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2puvI4IfG0
Re: 7WB5- Take 3
@enigmaT120:
Thanks : ) My personality type is tough-bright-resilient, like a red rubber ball, so I am already bouncing back.
Well, apparently a few days of incarceration has had the effect of clearing my sister's brain to the extent that she now recognizes that she has been delusional. So, fingers crossed, but keeping practical boundaries in place.
My friend who hired me to help with his house flip earlier this summer, offered me another job running an airbnb out of one of his rental properties. Free rent plus some cut of the take. I am giving it some consideration, but will likely decline because having previous experience sharing housing and being employed by him, I know it will likely eventually end up with me having to evict the boyfriend of one of the strippers my friend allowed to crash in the basement, or something like that.
My ex-lover, permaculture buddy is still working on the project on my property. He sent me a picture of a giant new hugel-bed he constructed this week, and he is helping me with the mowing. Pretty much I think he is motivated to do this for the same reason that a car-enthusiast guy would be motivated to work on some classic hunk of junk I had parked on blocks in my garage. So, I just have to hire a kid to mow my 3rd vacant lot which is located a couple blocks away from the project.
So, with my permaculture project in semi-caretakered, semi-packed-away-on-ice status for the time being, I decided I will just focus more directly on financials, and other skill quadrants. I arranged for the transfer of my substitute teaching credentials to the affluent district where I am currently residing for free (exchange for help with some mobility issues etc.) with my aging mother. My mother, although bi-polar shopaholic, is comfortable in old age due to receiving my father's quite generous federal employee pension, in addition to her own very small state employee pension and social security. So, she chooses to rent a very large, luxurious apartment in a very nice neighborhood. So, it's not exactly like I am suffering lifestyle deflation by staying with her. Also, I am earning the enduring gratitude of my two youngest sisters by handling the Mom-problem and at least keeping tabs on the crazy-Sister problem. Probably will stay here until January (through the holidays), teach, enjoy the pool and nearby hiking/biking trails, and study towards tacking some sort of new tech-skill credential on to my archaic B.S. Mathematics.
My BF beat me to the punch with the over-due break-up and sent me a text yesterday suggesting that we dial back to "dating." Teensy pinch of ego-pain, like smallest band-aid in kit being ripped from skin, followed by wave of relief that he saved me the tribulation of doing the deed. We can still have some fun this summer, and I will start dating other people as soon as I get my other puzzle pieces back in rough order.
Thanks : ) My personality type is tough-bright-resilient, like a red rubber ball, so I am already bouncing back.
Well, apparently a few days of incarceration has had the effect of clearing my sister's brain to the extent that she now recognizes that she has been delusional. So, fingers crossed, but keeping practical boundaries in place.
My friend who hired me to help with his house flip earlier this summer, offered me another job running an airbnb out of one of his rental properties. Free rent plus some cut of the take. I am giving it some consideration, but will likely decline because having previous experience sharing housing and being employed by him, I know it will likely eventually end up with me having to evict the boyfriend of one of the strippers my friend allowed to crash in the basement, or something like that.
My ex-lover, permaculture buddy is still working on the project on my property. He sent me a picture of a giant new hugel-bed he constructed this week, and he is helping me with the mowing. Pretty much I think he is motivated to do this for the same reason that a car-enthusiast guy would be motivated to work on some classic hunk of junk I had parked on blocks in my garage. So, I just have to hire a kid to mow my 3rd vacant lot which is located a couple blocks away from the project.
So, with my permaculture project in semi-caretakered, semi-packed-away-on-ice status for the time being, I decided I will just focus more directly on financials, and other skill quadrants. I arranged for the transfer of my substitute teaching credentials to the affluent district where I am currently residing for free (exchange for help with some mobility issues etc.) with my aging mother. My mother, although bi-polar shopaholic, is comfortable in old age due to receiving my father's quite generous federal employee pension, in addition to her own very small state employee pension and social security. So, she chooses to rent a very large, luxurious apartment in a very nice neighborhood. So, it's not exactly like I am suffering lifestyle deflation by staying with her. Also, I am earning the enduring gratitude of my two youngest sisters by handling the Mom-problem and at least keeping tabs on the crazy-Sister problem. Probably will stay here until January (through the holidays), teach, enjoy the pool and nearby hiking/biking trails, and study towards tacking some sort of new tech-skill credential on to my archaic B.S. Mathematics.
My BF beat me to the punch with the over-due break-up and sent me a text yesterday suggesting that we dial back to "dating." Teensy pinch of ego-pain, like smallest band-aid in kit being ripped from skin, followed by wave of relief that he saved me the tribulation of doing the deed. We can still have some fun this summer, and I will start dating other people as soon as I get my other puzzle pieces back in rough order.
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3
Nice to hear things are sort of realigning. From a silly, new-agey, perspective the universe seems to offer up a lot of opportunity to those who are receptive to it. (Of course, being in a relatively wealthy, stable, society means our universe is among the more benign in human experience.) One of the hardest lessons for me to learn was to abandon an instinct to fight the current when it gets too strong and accept that I'll sometimes get to the other side of the river a little downstream of where I'd intended.