I've been struggling with this one for several weeks, if not longer, so I thought I'd put this one before the board for advice.
As you might recall from previous threads, I've delivered pizza for parts of the past 4+ years. I enjoy it, it pays reasonably well and is very flexible, so I'll probably continue to derive part of my income from that job as I work toward ERE.
WRT my delivery vehicle, I feel torn between several ERE philosophies -
- living car-free, or at least minimizing transportation expense
- maintaining what you own, make things last, wear things out
- invest in quality for things you use often
I'm currently using a combination of the first two. I buy beaters on the cheap, try to do most of my own maintenance, then either scrap them or re-sell them, hopefully having not lost too much to depreciation along the way. I own a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass and a 1989 Ford Festiva, each purchased for under $1000. I'll drive one until it comes down with some type of problem, then switch to the other while I try to repair the broke-down car. This provides a nice learning experience, but can be a pain-in-the-ass, especially in sub-freezing Iowa winters. Currently the Festiva isn't starting while I drive the Cutlass.
Part of me wants to just sell those two cars for whatever I can get, and pay cash for a newer vehicle that would be (1) more reliable, (2) more fuel efficient (the Cutlass has been chugging a ton of gas this winter), (3) have a good chance of surviving 4-5 years of part-time delivering. Buying a newer car would take a decent chunk of my current ERE-fund, but it would hopefully free up some time and ideally cut down my gas bill.
So, given the following hypothetical assumptions -
- approx 1,000 miles driven per month
- delivering accounting for 90% of total driving
- 4-5 more years of delivering
- I'm capable of routine maintenance and minor repairs, and have the tools required. . . . .
Should I keep patching together beaters and limping from one repair (and repair bill) to the next, or pay up front for one nice vehicle that would hopefully get me by for five years, when I can sell it and sail off into ERE? Thanks for your input!
Another car thread
I'm assuming that the beaters are the low-cost option despite the maintenance (hopefully that wasn't the question you were asking -- there's no real way to tell without numbers). Given that, I definitely wouldn't use a "nice vehicle" to deliver pizzas. You don't get paid any more to deliver in a car that costs more, right? In fact, I imagine tips might be better in an inexpensive car.
@Ralphy - I have a similar strategy to yours, except I bought two relatively newer IDENTICAL beater cars that are both fuel efficient.
This way the parts are interchangeable, you learn a lot about a very specific car (it's really easy to change a part on the second car once I've changed the identical part on the first car), you learn what fails most often on the cars, etc.
I've been tempted - on several occasions - to just go and buy a newer used Honda Civic or something so I don't have to deal with the maintenance nightmare. But I know that my option is more economical.
Also - I have to echo what dragoncar said above. I would never use a nice vehicle to deliver anything with. The depreciation expense is just too great when compared to the maintenance costs of maintaining an older vehicle, IMO.
This way the parts are interchangeable, you learn a lot about a very specific car (it's really easy to change a part on the second car once I've changed the identical part on the first car), you learn what fails most often on the cars, etc.
I've been tempted - on several occasions - to just go and buy a newer used Honda Civic or something so I don't have to deal with the maintenance nightmare. But I know that my option is more economical.
Also - I have to echo what dragoncar said above. I would never use a nice vehicle to deliver anything with. The depreciation expense is just too great when compared to the maintenance costs of maintaining an older vehicle, IMO.
Putting myself in your place on this:
I am going to deliver pizza for 4-5 more years.
I am shooting for ERE as quickly as possible, but will not realize that for "a while".
I understand that fuel will only get more expensive, probably destroying my savings on driving marginally reliable vehicles.
I would not want to pay insurance on more than one vehicle.
I would not want to register and license and pay taxes on more than one vehicle.
I want my cost per mile as low as possible at 1000 mi/mo.
I don't want to spend my life under a jacked up car.
I need reliability.
I would sell off my beaters, and buy a 1999 - 2005 Honda Civic with less than 50K miles on it. Expected cost to me would be around $7500 - $9000. (This holds true in my part of the country). I would pay off the car as quickly as possible in order to drop collision insurance, but in your case, you may need that coverage.
Also maybe a Toyota Corolla would work.
I saw a 2008 Civic with 37000 miles this week for around $8,000.
Something like a Civic draws little attention, unless you put the pizza sign on top of it. Even then, who looks at a pizza delivery car?
You may assume a bit more cost than present, but your peace of mind and lack of busted knuckles mean something, after all.
I am going to deliver pizza for 4-5 more years.
I am shooting for ERE as quickly as possible, but will not realize that for "a while".
I understand that fuel will only get more expensive, probably destroying my savings on driving marginally reliable vehicles.
I would not want to pay insurance on more than one vehicle.
I would not want to register and license and pay taxes on more than one vehicle.
I want my cost per mile as low as possible at 1000 mi/mo.
I don't want to spend my life under a jacked up car.
I need reliability.
I would sell off my beaters, and buy a 1999 - 2005 Honda Civic with less than 50K miles on it. Expected cost to me would be around $7500 - $9000. (This holds true in my part of the country). I would pay off the car as quickly as possible in order to drop collision insurance, but in your case, you may need that coverage.
Also maybe a Toyota Corolla would work.
I saw a 2008 Civic with 37000 miles this week for around $8,000.
Something like a Civic draws little attention, unless you put the pizza sign on top of it. Even then, who looks at a pizza delivery car?
You may assume a bit more cost than present, but your peace of mind and lack of busted knuckles mean something, after all.
I came to a similar conclusion as HSpencer but for slightly different reasons.
As discussed in the ERE book, if you must buy an automobile, it's best to buy something with a flat depreciation curve. Often you can do that by buying an old car with an enthusiast following.
If it weren't for the harsh winters I'd say to get a Miata. Winter-capable, fuel-efficient, cult-following cars include Saabs, 4-cylinder BMWs and Mercedes, and high-performance Hondas, Subarus, and Volkswagens. You could probably expect to buy one that's depreciated to $5-$10k and resell it for about the same amount.
Honda Civics in running condition seem to stop depreciating around $3-$5k, not because of an enthusiast base, but because people know they will run almost indefinitely. This seems like the optimal solution: buy a $3k Civic and sell it for $3k when you're done with it.
As discussed in the ERE book, if you must buy an automobile, it's best to buy something with a flat depreciation curve. Often you can do that by buying an old car with an enthusiast following.
If it weren't for the harsh winters I'd say to get a Miata. Winter-capable, fuel-efficient, cult-following cars include Saabs, 4-cylinder BMWs and Mercedes, and high-performance Hondas, Subarus, and Volkswagens. You could probably expect to buy one that's depreciated to $5-$10k and resell it for about the same amount.
Honda Civics in running condition seem to stop depreciating around $3-$5k, not because of an enthusiast base, but because people know they will run almost indefinitely. This seems like the optimal solution: buy a $3k Civic and sell it for $3k when you're done with it.
Hondas are good cars, but you have to pay a lot for them... Even if they have 100k and are 10 years old... Also, newer cars = more money to insure and more to license. Also, parts are more expensive and work is more complicated and the mechanics are much more complicated themselves.
I would look for a slant 6; Dodge Dart, Plymouth Duster, Valiant... They are CHEAP, 4 doors are given away. Often you can find rebuilt engines with low miles, lovingly put together by mechanics as daily drivers.
+In many states you can get permanent tags on older cars. I paid $110 for my 76 7 years ago, and it's permanent.
+Slant 6 engines are incredibly simple to work on and maintain.
+Parts are cheap and still available at any parts store. There should be a surplus in junk as well.
+Slant 6 should get over 25mpg if properly tuned... I've read reports of over 30, but over 22 should be easily attained.
+Slant 6 is a notoriously long lasting engine. 300k on a rebuilt engine is not uncommon. Hondas are great, but you can't really count on over 200k.
+Absolute worst case, you can scrap the car for a large portion of the purchase price, perhaps as much as half.
I really don't think it could be beat for cost of purchase and operation.
What if you bought 2 identical cars and just paid for 1 plate?... Insurance MIGHT be iffy, but you could just switch plates to the car you're driving... I doubt a cop would even know how to read a VIN, assuming he could find it, which I'd also bet against.
I would look for a slant 6; Dodge Dart, Plymouth Duster, Valiant... They are CHEAP, 4 doors are given away. Often you can find rebuilt engines with low miles, lovingly put together by mechanics as daily drivers.
+In many states you can get permanent tags on older cars. I paid $110 for my 76 7 years ago, and it's permanent.
+Slant 6 engines are incredibly simple to work on and maintain.
+Parts are cheap and still available at any parts store. There should be a surplus in junk as well.
+Slant 6 should get over 25mpg if properly tuned... I've read reports of over 30, but over 22 should be easily attained.
+Slant 6 is a notoriously long lasting engine. 300k on a rebuilt engine is not uncommon. Hondas are great, but you can't really count on over 200k.
+Absolute worst case, you can scrap the car for a large portion of the purchase price, perhaps as much as half.
I really don't think it could be beat for cost of purchase and operation.
What if you bought 2 identical cars and just paid for 1 plate?... Insurance MIGHT be iffy, but you could just switch plates to the car you're driving... I doubt a cop would even know how to read a VIN, assuming he could find it, which I'd also bet against.
What if you bought 2 identical cars and just paid for 1 plate?... Insurance MIGHT be iffy, but you could just switch plates to the car you're driving... I doubt a cop would even know how to read a VIN, assuming he could find it, which I'd also bet against.
Tempting, but if there were ever an accident I wonder if they would check the VIN at that point, and god forbid you got in an accident with the uninsured vehicle and they found out when you were at fault. I do know people who get dealer plates and move them from car to car, but I think you need to own a minimum of like 5 cars to do that, I'm sure it varies by state.
Tempting, but if there were ever an accident I wonder if they would check the VIN at that point, and god forbid you got in an accident with the uninsured vehicle and they found out when you were at fault. I do know people who get dealer plates and move them from car to car, but I think you need to own a minimum of like 5 cars to do that, I'm sure it varies by state.
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George the original one
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dot_com_vet
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Hello fellow Iowan. 
I think a used Civic would be a great option. We sold our nine year old Civic for $4k. Not cosmetically perfect, but it had brand new tires and timing belt done. It was probably good for another 10 years with only oil changes. Someone got a really good value.
Plus they're easier to work on than most other cars if something does go wrong.
You have to think total cost of ownership, and old American iron may not be the cheapest.
I once had a professor who used to work on a lot of defense projects. A real techno-numbers geek. He computed the vehicle with the lowest cost of ownership to be a used four cylinder Caravan. We still talk about that, especially considering he could probably have afforded a Ferrari.
I think a used Civic would be a great option. We sold our nine year old Civic for $4k. Not cosmetically perfect, but it had brand new tires and timing belt done. It was probably good for another 10 years with only oil changes. Someone got a really good value.
Plus they're easier to work on than most other cars if something does go wrong.
You have to think total cost of ownership, and old American iron may not be the cheapest.
I once had a professor who used to work on a lot of defense projects. A real techno-numbers geek. He computed the vehicle with the lowest cost of ownership to be a used four cylinder Caravan. We still talk about that, especially considering he could probably have afforded a Ferrari.
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dot_com_vet
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I have a Honda Civic. Great car. However, I believe that purchasing it was a poor decision. I bought it when it was three years old and had 48,000 miles on it. I probably had $13,000 wrapped up in it by the time it was all said and done. Now it has 124,000 miles on it and it's 6 years old. KBB says that it's worth $6,000. That probably means it's worth $5,000. So in three years and 76,000 miles I've lost $8,000 in depreciation alone.
If I had bought a Civic with 110,000 miles that had just had the timing belt replaced, I probably would have paid about $5,000 for it. I would now have 186,000 miles on such a car and it would probably be worth about $2500. Everything else would be essentially the same. I would not have had to have paid for the timing belt change like I did with my car, but I likely would have had to pay for some other random repair (probably CV joints). I would have paid a little less on insurance.
Basically over a three year period I would expect that choosing a little older car would have cost me about $6000 less than what I spent with this car.
Moral of the story? Depreciation kills. The key to spending a small amount of money on cars is as follows:
1. Find a car that is known to be reliable.
2. Find a car that someone has taken meticulous care of. For example, I have records of every single maintenance item that I've ever done on my car. I even send samples of my oil in for analysis when I change my oil.
3. Understand major maintenance items that are required for the type of car you're looking at and buy a car that has already had these maintenance items done.
4. Take care of your car during your ownership of it.
If I had bought a Civic with 110,000 miles that had just had the timing belt replaced, I probably would have paid about $5,000 for it. I would now have 186,000 miles on such a car and it would probably be worth about $2500. Everything else would be essentially the same. I would not have had to have paid for the timing belt change like I did with my car, but I likely would have had to pay for some other random repair (probably CV joints). I would have paid a little less on insurance.
Basically over a three year period I would expect that choosing a little older car would have cost me about $6000 less than what I spent with this car.
Moral of the story? Depreciation kills. The key to spending a small amount of money on cars is as follows:
1. Find a car that is known to be reliable.
2. Find a car that someone has taken meticulous care of. For example, I have records of every single maintenance item that I've ever done on my car. I even send samples of my oil in for analysis when I change my oil.
3. Understand major maintenance items that are required for the type of car you're looking at and buy a car that has already had these maintenance items done.
4. Take care of your car during your ownership of it.