in which brute says things about libertarianism

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:35 pm

@JLF

Your home country sounds like my hell on Earth.

The Chinese are coming! Let’s borrow a quadrillion dollars from them and then devalue our currency....

@7WB5

At least we have the 2nd Amendment for when the collective J. Bozos go too far!

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:59 pm

In terms of easy to start a business, ivory coast was best. The key factor seems how littles thieves are tolerated if we wan't to predict prosperity and its distribution. In ivory coast, fathers don't even correct their son if they steal from them, in switzerland a bankers wife being to lucky with forex trading makes the news as a potential criminal. In the us, you lie somewher in beetween.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by jacob » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:33 pm

@Campitor - On the one hand, it's interesting that a self-declared social democracy is further ahead in entrepreneurial efficiency than a self-declared capitalist market economy when it comes to the light touch business regulation(*). On the other hand, there's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruptio ... ions_Index and maybe that applies to the judicious part: Americans on the whole seem to be a lot more willing to break the law when it inconveniences them(**). Indeed, a third of adult Americans have enough of a criminal record to cause issues insofar they were to immigrate to the US. On the gripping hand, it comes down to what system one is personally most comfortable/capable/willing to deal with and live in.

(*) In reality they're pretty close. Recall me mentioning that the US spends 1/3 of GDP on government while Denmark spends 1/2. That's only a 1/6=16% difference. In practical terms, they're both mixed economies that are part capitalism, part socialism, and part representative democracy. However, the cultural attitudes are certain different enough to cause misunderstandings/a difference in how they self-declare.

(**) I'm definitely not there yet.

@MI - I have good and bad things to say about both. However, I tend to get triggered by claims that any one ideology or country is the best [solution] ever. FWIW, I think Switzerland (I lived there for 4 years) is the best designed country in the world :-P ;-) I'm curious about Singapore. This would be my dark horse candidate, but I don't know since I haven't lived there.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:53 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:At least we have the 2nd Amendment for when the collective J. Bozos go too far!
Yeah, like that worked for the all the small time operators in Pennsylvania when Rockefeller came to town. Nothing stopped him and his henchmen until he got to Texas.

Anyways, I'm only mostly pretend angry at J.Bozo. I mean, maybe I would pinch him really hard if I was ever in an elevator with him, but that would be the extent of my potential for violent retribution. I just find that it helps my personal growth in my adult masculine quadrant if I assign myself an arch-nemesis.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:10 pm

@JLF

Those places intrigue me also but the cost of living seem like a major barrier of entry for me. If I got caught with a joint in Singapore....(shudder).

@7WB5

At least the court systems here are more fair than say.....China.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by jacob » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ation_rate ... just a proxy to fairness (which is part local to the system and part human rights), but still ... this might suggest some universal standard of punishment.

Alternatively ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_p ... stribution

It's too bad there's no genuinely libertarian country to compare to.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:48 pm

I hope you’re not thinking I’m a defender of all things American, or even libertarianism. (Remember it was me who BRUTE quoted to start the thread.) I’m trying the best I can to establish my cosmopolitanism in the most organic way possible.

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:47 pm

Singapore taxes + Swiss defense model + Portuguese drug policy + US constitution

please santa

maybe the Swiss constitution is even better. they sure seem to be more federated there.


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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:02 am

Swiss constitution was modeled from the us constitution.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:02 am

At least the court systems here are more fair than say.....China.
96% of those incarcerated in state and federal prisons got there by way of plea bargain. A big part of that is because the poor get nearly no defense.

We are world leaders in incarcerated citizens.

BLM is all messed up about causalities, but they have good reason to be pissed.

Are we really doing so well in our court systems? Or do we just tell ourselves that?

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:18 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:33 pm
@Campitor - On the one hand, it's interesting that a self-declared social democracy is further ahead in entrepreneurial efficiency than a self-declared capitalist market economy when it comes to the light touch business regulation(*). On the other hand, there's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruptio ... ions_Index and maybe that applies to the judicious part: Americans on the whole seem to be a lot more willing to break the law when it inconveniences them(**). Indeed, a third of adult Americans have enough of a criminal record to cause issues insofar they were to immigrate to the US. On the gripping hand, it comes down to what system one is personally most comfortable/capable/willing to deal with and live in.
Denmark, being a mostly homogeneous culture, and geographically smaller than the USA which helps foster homogeneity, it's not surprising that there is less red tape to wade through. The USA with its diversity of political opinion, even within a single party, and its larger geography, makes for a greater divergence on how businesses should be managed; they all want a say on how you manage it.

Even the European Union encourages a more streamlined means of setting up a business: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/s ... dex_en.htm#:
The requirements vary depending on the country. However, the EU encourages all countries to meet certain targets for helping to set up new companies, including:
  • setting up in no more than 3 working days
  • costing less than EUR 100
  • completing all procedures through a single administrative body
  • completing all registration formalities online
  • registering a company in another EU country online (through the national contact points)
Anyone proposing the above recommendations in the USA, especially the 3rd bullet point, would get laughed at by the political establishment. Government should strive to have the lightest touch on business by streamlining bureaucracy but that would mean shrinking government.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:02 am
Are we really doing so well in our court systems? Or do we just tell ourselves that?
Our court and prison systems could use a ton of reform. It seems justice is too caught up in wanting to punish and fine persons instead of rehabilitating them. Our prison systems are basically universities of crime. You go in a low level offender, meet more hardened criminals, and get out angry, dehumanized, and fettered with unnecessary restrictions and fines that make it extremely difficult to earn an honest living.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am

Yeah, absolutely lots of room for improvement in the US. For-profit prisons are wrong on principle. And I think that here in the US, reform is actually possible.

Compare that to China. Is reform possible there? What’s more, could we be even having a conversation about reform? Would we even be able to exchange ideas like this on the Internet?

At least in the US, when bad things happen, we know about them, and with social media, injustices perpetrated by the State can be swiftly publicized. Compare that to China, where I am sure they can erase you faster than Geta from the Severan Tondo.

@BRUTE

Regarding the Swiss defense model....very easy to externalize the negatives. Napoleon was still able to conquer them, and Nazi Germany was too worried about the Allies to concern themselves with a non-aggressive banking mecca. Had the Allies been taken out, you can be assured that the Nazis were “saving Switzerland for last.”

George the original one
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by George the original one » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:46 am

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am
At least in the US, when bad things happen, we know about them, and with social media, injustices perpetrated by the State can be swiftly publicized. Compare that to China, where I am sure they can erase you faster than Geta from the Severan Tondo.
The rumour mill works well in countries with suppressed social media, but it is prone to exaggeration and misdirection (more so than Trump's "fake news"). Things are "known" but not with certainty.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:57 am

Don't forget that in the U.S you can also be incarcerated at the age of 9. My ex-polyamour's non-profit was working to secure the release of a man with an IQ of around 60 who was incarcerated at the age of 14, because he nodded in agreement with his interrogators. It is the case that there are individuals with very low IQ who are a danger to themselves and society, because they also exhibit low impulse control, but IMO it isn't humane or rational to lock them up with, for instance, high IQ psychopaths.

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:51 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am
Regarding the Swiss defense model....very easy to externalize the negatives. Napoleon was still able to conquer them, and Nazi Germany was too worried about the Allies to concern themselves with a non-aggressive banking mecca. Had the Allies been taken out, you can be assured that the Nazis were “saving Switzerland for last.”
sure. but brute wonders - if a place can be conquered no matter if it has a large standing army or not, why spend the money? militia is better at "being unconquerable" and much cheaper. also less prone to corruption.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:58 pm

That sounds like Harry Browne. “If there is no government, than the Soviets would have to conquer each of us individually.” lol.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Hobbes » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:51 am

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:51 pm
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am
Regarding the Swiss defense model....very easy to externalize the negatives. Napoleon was still able to conquer them, and Nazi Germany was too worried about the Allies to concern themselves with a non-aggressive banking mecca. Had the Allies been taken out, you can be assured that the Nazis were “saving Switzerland for last.”
sure. but brute wonders - if a place can be conquered no matter if it has a large standing army or not, why spend the money? militia is better at "being unconquerable" and much cheaper. also less prone to corruption.
A modern army, supported by heavy weapons, armored vehicles, and a variety of aircraft is gonna kick the crap outta a sizable collection of dudes with AK's in a head on a head fight. The best the militia can do is a guerrilla war - which of course means the aggressors owns most of your territory in the mean time. Sure, given enough time, the militia may be able to repulse the big bad invading army, but not without massive losses - not to mention the huge economic costs the invaded country would receive.
You're not seriously suggesting a gaggle of your neighbors with whatever arms they can afford is gonna go toe to toe with any modern military, are you? Or defend territory as well as a modern army?

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:03 am

I like the current American model, at least better than the alternatives. We need a standing army/navy/air force/SPACE FORCE, but also an armed citizenry to ensure that the government forces do not fall into the hands of a tyranny.

Of course, a group of guys with AR-15’s cannot take on the government’s tanks and helicopters, but I fully expect that loyalties would be divided. Also, don’t underestimate the power of deterrence. Concentration of force to address threats abroad, decentralization of force at home to ensure appropriate use of the concentrated power.

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