Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

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Campitor
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by Campitor » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:51 pm

This has been my recipe for getting pay increases which has worked well for my 25+ years in the workforce:
  1. Work hard on impactful things.
  2. Volunteer for projects often.
  3. Learn as many new skills as possible.
  4. Consistently deliver and learn from your mistakes (fail forward).
  5. Don't be afraid to apply for other jobs even within the company if you've dried out opportunities in the existing job.
  6. It's okay to do a lateral move if the new job has better growth/learning opportunities.
  7. Extroverts are in the majority in most companies so learn to fit in with them (this doesn't mean kissing ass). There is a real financial cost to being an introvert in most businesses.
When you're good at what you do and work hard (rare combination sadly), the pay increases negotiate themselves especially if you let it be known that you aren't a complainer and that your prefered method of stating your opinion is by voting with your feet.

Seppia
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:34 am
Location: Italy

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by Seppia » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:54 pm

Yup, it rarely gets mentioned but as 2b1s says, step one is to be better than your peers at what you do.
If you suck and threaten to leave, the bosses will pop the good bottle right after accepting your resignation with a very fake sad face.

Be good at what you do in a measurable way, be likeable, be reliable and then magically you have leverage (some).

With big corporations, the way to grow salary is just to leave. I believe it's a bad strategy, but today companies tend to pay more for people coming from outside, and that's the reality of the game.

liberty
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:01 pm
Location: Oslo (Norway)

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by liberty » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:23 pm

@2Birds1Stone They would hate to lose me - I know that from earlier negotiation where I have got quite high raises, especially when I said I don't depend much on work income anymore.

@Campitor I'm an introvert, and I hate how the extroverts always get the top positions and introverts are ignored. One of many reasons I would love to leave Corporate...

SustainableHappiness
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Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by SustainableHappiness » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:13 pm

The most powerful lever in a negotiation is improving your BATNA. Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. I.e. always have an out.

For negotiating a raise, this means improving your marketability for more $ elsewhere as already stated. If you are always thinking in terms of having a strong BATNA, no matter what the outcome you're safe. This has a secondary effect of bolstering your mental strength in bargaining mode.

The shittiest negotiations are where your wants (ego) and impatience imply there is no BATNA...that's where you give away your shirt. Often this is associated with perceived lifestyle implications or grass in greener mentality. No advice on that, besides try to avoid it.

The danger of relying to heavily on BATNA is abusing the ultimatum. I've seen people give ultimatums and retract them after their bluff is called, it is brutal. If you give an ultimatum make sure it's genuine. I.e. that you will walk.

Third parties (outside of negotiation) can also help call bullshit on your BATNA if they think you are full of it, or it doesn't sound feasible.

Campitor
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Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by Campitor » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:17 pm

@SustainableHappiness

You've hit the nail on the head. Very good advice.

SavingWithBabies
Posts: 454
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Location: Midwest, USA

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by SavingWithBabies » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:15 pm

I have only received substantial raises by switching employers*.

* After about a decade, it is starting to appear that I've hit a salary ceiling so perhaps this strategy only works so long (I'm still exploring if this is true or not).

liberty
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:01 pm
Location: Oslo (Norway)

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by liberty » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:19 pm

@SustainableHappiness My BATNA is retirement, but can I use the R word in a negotiation? Any of you who have used that? How did it work?

classical_Liberal
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by classical_Liberal » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Rather than "R"etire, use "R"esign. As in, I will have to resign because I have better opportunities in the marketplace. It's not a lie, but it's more powerful and doesn't open up the can of worms that you may just retire in the near future anyway, or how can a young person retire? s/he's FOS.

To reiterate what everyone else has said, you must back up your words with actions. Threatening to leave, if you know you are valued, is the nuclear option and you must be willing to follow through on it or you will lose.

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BlueNote
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:26 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by BlueNote » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:30 pm

Unfortunately I only have limited anecdotal experience but here's my advice FWIW.

Large organizations will have an HR department that will likely have a grade (your position in the hierarchy) and range (range of compensation allowed in the grade) raise system that allows certain percentage increases (if anything) to people decided upon by managers. These systems are necessary because without them managers would be giving out too much money. The result is that most often tenured internal people make far less than equally qualified candidates brought from outside the company because outsider pay is dictated by market forces. So my first piece of advice is to test the market and find out how much you can make out there , if it's a lot more than you make now then I think it's worth asking for a raise and using that market knowledge as your argument as to why. My experience has shown having a BATNA is powerful so if you have another job lined up it makes negotiating easier because you don't have to bluff, most people are terrible at bluffing that sort of thing during such high stakes negotiations.

SustainableHappiness
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Negotiating raise - experiences, techniques and more

Post by SustainableHappiness » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:19 am

liberty wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:19 pm
@SustainableHappiness My BATNA is retirement, but can I use the R word in a negotiation? Any of you who have used that? How did it work?
This depends on how you view the nature of the negotiation between employer and employee, is it more finite and competitive or more infinite and cooperative? Win-win vs Win-lose? etc. A good model I've learned in the past is the negotiation clock face. Basically there are different techniques/behaviours that work better at each of the 12 different types of negotiations, but I use it more broadly since internalizing 12 different types and sets of behaviour is hard. Is it competitive (1 to 5) or is it co-operative (6 to 12)?

I have viewed all salary negotiations as co-operative, unless history dictates otherwise (i.e. you hate your employer, or they hate you, usually these go hand in hand), because of the amount of levers at play (tangible and intangible) and the idea that I think employers want to keep good employees happy and good employees (particularly with "fit" or "leadership" skills) are hard to come by.

With this in mind to answer your question, I have NEVER stated my BATNA to an employer, I have never given an ultimatum, I have never threatened. I also do not recommend doing this, unless you have fully thought through the consequences of a combative process after the results are in. i.e. if you get what you want tangibly, will the intangibles (e.g. trust, work environment) cause it to turn into a net loss for your quality of life?

Using this attitude, so far every negotiation conversation I've had with employers has been successful, if success is defined as being happy at the end of the process and of course, getting more of X (flex-time, salary, whatever). This doesn't include my first job where I was not wise or confident enough to ask for more after the first offer (because that's not a negotiation, it's just acceptance).

For a real example, in my most recent new role, I had 4 interviews...I also knew I was a bargain for them due to the nature of the collective agreements' salary grid calculation because a couple years of my education and experience were concurrent and they explicitly do not double count and typically take people with more experience and consequently likely have deep pockets for the position at hand. So I had a good reason, and knew they have already invested significant energy into me. So I opened extreme for 5 steps higher (the MAX discretion they can give as per the collective agreement), simply stating I was unhappy (giving a professional flinch when the offer was given...google it) with the initial offer and that should count my experience (which would have only been 2 steps) and they gave 3 steps ($10k) per year more (I was expecting to land around $7k). I'm happy, they're happy, win-win.

Negotiation clock face referenced above: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/th ... /c02.xhtml

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