Expat income, banking, and flag theory

[chenda]

Now think about it. When the going gets tough and your USA or European passport won't get what you want, can you really maintain a straight face while presenting a passport from St Lucia?

Is there any particular advantage to St Lucian citizenship, other than it seems to freely sell it ? I can't see it really helping in a world where a US or EU passport no longer works. Tax advantages ?

One thing those "flag theory" and multiple passport people don't disclose is that ordinary 90/180 tourists often get much better treatment than citizens and permanent residents. Less taxes, less bureaucratic hassles, often friendlier treatment by police. Legal residency like so many things in life (housing, ground/air/water transport machines, girlfriends): better to rent temporarily than own permanently.

I completely agree, if you have first world citizenship somewhere (if you're a migrate worker from somewhere poorer the reverse is probably true) Having a US and/or EU passport seems ideal in most cases.

[shemp]

Main advantage of St Lucia is that it's the cheapest citizenship you can buy and very little time on the island required before you receive citizenship. It just seems terribly scammy to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there was trouble down the road, because of citizenship sold to terrorists or other criminals, so that countries in Europe threatened to revoke visa-free status for St Lucia unless they cleaned up the situation, whereupon St Lucia might suspend all the passports it sold, pending review.

I just shudder at the idea of presenting a passport from St Lucia to border control anywhere. Panama passport is a lot more legitimate, if you truly want a western hemisphere passport and are a permanent traveler type, since Panama is something of an international crossroads and international business/banking center. Plus Panama citizenship is cheaper in money terms than St Lucia, though more time-consuming to obtain and maintain, as any legitimate citizenship should be, IMO. Panama is as multi-racial as the USA, so you won't be conspicuous holding a Panama passport regardless of what you look like. Whereas true natives of St Lucia are mostly black African ancestry.

Panama also has generous tax laws for corporations, and Panama is well known as a corporate base, so you can save with some fancy accounting, though you are close to the edge of the law if you're a USA citizen trying to save on taxes this way. Puerto Rico much better. Whereas banks in USA/Europe will probably want nothing to do with corporations domiciled in St Lucia.

[chenda]

I have a friend from Trinidad and when we've gone travelling together she often gets delayed going through customs as its such an unusual passport lots of customs people have never seen one. Trinidad doesn't have a bad reputation but I can imagine St Lucia might. I read recently there are 14 million Irish passports in circulation from a country of ~ 4 million people, although afaik Ireland has never sold passports and its largely from a permissive ancestry policy in granting citizenship.

[Seppia]

Yup, Ireland is up there with Italy in terms of ease of getting the passport through ancestry.
Having an Italian passport also opens a very fast pathway to Panama (google “Tratado de amistad Italia Panama”)

[Mister Imperceptible]

Did they close that many HSBC branches? There were multiples of them in NYC just a couple years ago

I do not know what branches were open before but looking at the USA branch locations now it mostly concentrated in CA, NY, and FL (215 locations in those 3 states) and 31 branches in 7 other states plus DC.

Meanwhile UBS has a few locations in a couple of my stomping grounds.

I had an account with one of the Big 4 US banks but they became abusive with fees as soon as my balance went below $10,000 after I had to pay taxes, so I closed that account. Maybe UBS is no better but if I found a manager with a brain maybe we could do business.

[Seppia]

In fairness, NY + CA + FL probably account for 90% of the USA people that need a truly international bank.

[CS]

In fairness, NY + CA + FL probably account for 90% of the USA people that need a truly international bank.

For what? Honestly, they have the infection highest rates right now, lol. They aren't going anywhere (well, maybe New York but the Florida connection is probably going to trip them up. As long as FL is hosed, NY probably is too.)

Also, that is quite the statement. I don't think you are right. There is a reason a lot of our Covid infections started in the Seattle area. Chicago, Atlantic and Minneapolis also compromise a huge portion of international travel with the convenient hubs there.

[chenda]

Yup, Ireland is up there with Italy in terms of ease of getting the passport through ancestry.
Having an Italian passport also opens a very fast pathway to Panama (google “Tratado de amistad Italia Panama”)

Yes although someone on the forum mentioned its quite a formal affair with Italy. After lots of forms and translations you apparently go to a special ceremony at the local consulate and they formally declare you a citizen in a ceremony under portraits of Garabaldi. Ireland just sends you a letter with a passport application form : )

[Seppia]

For what?

Because they have a life in the USA but also have life (houses, investments, contractors) abroad.
Some people need a bank that can satisfy their local needs, but also be global enough.
This may sound strange, but I guarantee you that with most banks, you may have $1.000.000 in country X and not be given any credit in county Y.
So having (for example) HSBC who understands that if you have $300k in the USA you’re probably good for €1000 credit line in Europe Is pretty valuable.

[Seppia]

Yes although someone on the forum mentioned its quite a formal affair with Italy. After lots of forms and translations you apparently go to a special ceremony at the local consulate and they formally declare you a citizen in a ceremony under portraits of Garabaldi. Ireland just sends you a letter with a passport application form : )

The Italian procedure will be more cumbersome, slow and inefficient compared to the Irish one.
It will probably involve eating way better food and visiting better looking cites as well.

[Mister Imperceptible]

What Seppia describes is exactly what I’m looking for, essentially a bank I could have an account with that could provide full services whether I am in the US or abroad. I spent a lot of time at my credit union so physical branches are just nice to have.

[chenda]

The Italian procedure will be more cumbersome, slow and inefficient compared to the Irish one.
It will probably involve eating way better food and visiting better looking cites as well.

Haha, maybe...Ireland and Italy actually have a lot of similarities, mostly good ones...

What Seppia describes is exactly what I’m looking for, essentially a bank I could have an account with that could provide full services whether I am in the US or abroad. I spent a lot of time at my credit union so physical branches are just nice to have.

I have a Portuguese bank account with Bank Inter (which I think is a Spanish bank) and I just transfer money from my UK bank account via transfer wise. I've withdrawn cash from my UK account on cash machines all around the world and only incurred minimal charges (none in Europe) Online banking makes things straight forward and largely makes a brick and morter bank unnecessary...

[CS]

Because they have a life in the USA but also have life (houses, investments, contractors) abroad.
Some people need a bank that can satisfy their local needs, but also be global enough.
This may sound strange, but I guarantee you that with most banks, you may have $1.000.000 in country X and not be given any credit in county Y.
So having (for example) HSBC who understands that if you have $300k in the USA you’re probably good for €1000 credit line in Europe Is pretty valuable.

Oh Seppia, I know all that. I was razzing you! I couldn't resist after your pronouncement about the fly over states and your previous digging on in me when I wasn't precise enough for your tastes. I promise I won't repeat the offense.

ETA: Now I do feel bad if I upset you. I only meant a light ribbing, not to get your back up. Sorry!

[Seppia]

Ah ah no problem whatsoever!
Sorry to all, yesterday I had a couple glasses of calvados and I’m not used to drinking much any more, so I may have responded more abruptly than I would have

The comment about Ny + CA + FL wasn’t intended as a joke on the other states, I meant that they account for a large share of the “serial expat” community.
Ie the banker who moves from London to NY, the tech guy/gal from India who settles in CA, etc.

For 99.99% of the people, a bank that does what chenda describes is good enough, because they have never been confronted with the legendary
“Hello I’d like to rent an apartment”
“Sure we will need your bank account info”
“Here’s my bank details from foreign country X, along with the details of the bank statement showing I’m solvent *6 figures”
“No sorry has to be a local bank”
*goes to bank
“Hello I’d like to open a bank account”
“Sure I need an ID and proof of local address”
“I just moved here and need to rent an apartment but I first need a bank account”
“Sorry I can’t open an account for you if you can’t show proof of residence”
“...”

I had this happen to me twice in my life when moving from Italy to France and then from France to the USA.
With HSBC instead it’s as easy as showing up to a branch, telling them you have an account with them in country X
They call them up and verify
Next day you have an account and a credit line
When I moved to NYC my boss, who was making 3x me and was a 50yo successful executive managed to open an account only after a couple weeks of lobbying from our CFO with the bank we used for company money, and he started with a $500 credit line, while I opened my account in three days and started with $10k in credit

[shemp]

Here's a typical problem with international banking. Ukraine recently started better enforcement of an existing tax treaty with the USA, and so PrivatBank sent out a notice to account holders that they have two weeks to submit USA tax form W9 or their account will be cancelled. Now suppose you were offline for two weeks, perhaps sick with covid-19. When you recover, your bank account is gone. Furthermore, though in not sure, it's possible you have to file this form in hardcopy (paper with ink signature) in which case too bad if you're out of the country.

Obviously, banks like HSBC probably more professional acting, but this is the sort of headaches you create with this "international man of mystery" lifestyle. Several other posters in this thread also pointed this out. Don't underestimate the importance of simplifying financial affairs, especially as you get older. When you are in your 90's, will you really be able to keep track of multiple citizenships with multiple passports needing renewal at different times, multiple tax forms, multiple pieces of real estate scattered around the world, multiple banks sending hardcopy mail to multiple addresses in different countries, etc, etc? Instead of a portfolio of crappy citizenships, crappy banks, etc, maybe just get one first class version of each?

For the contrary point of view, see Nomad Capitalist (website plus YouTube channel), in addition to Sovereign Man. Guys behind those sites make money selling consulting advice on how to complicate your life, so naturally they tend to focus on the benefits of complexity.

[Egg]

Can't comment on the wisdom of splitting financial affairs across countries, but skills and connections seem also to be an important part of this equation.

If your skills are sufficiently in demand, you are far more likely to have emigration options if the shit hits the fan at home. I'm thinking particularly about postwar employment of Nazi scientists, but really I think the are plenty of contemporary examples of skills being the ticket out of a weak/failing country. Skills and connections probably > financial capital when it comes to international resilience.

Also helpful when it comes to mundane practicalities of banking mentioned above. Knowing people on the ground helps in plenty of countries (albeit probably not the UK, as Bankai noted before).

[Ego]

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