What I Spend

Where are you and where are you going?
classical_Liberal
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Re: What I Spend

Post by classical_Liberal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:50 pm
When I was working - I paid $20 to have the same burrito delivered. Sometimes twice in a single week... If our wealth magically doubled... Re-establish the safety margin for private long term care. Resume buying any food from any source. Re-hire the house keeper. Re-join the luxury gym...etc... etc... etc...
This is a normal feeling. The path not taken. I've felt it.

Consider that path is still available to you.

Also consider any income you make is gravy to buy that $30 burrito or a housekeeper. I found a "JOB", that I liked this summer working as a beer pourer at a local place I hang out at anyway. Two days a week was about 1.5K of income per month. I enjoyed my time there, when it became inconvenient I quit. Two days a week for six months covered half my living expenses for the year, and I travel... a lot.

You like timing yourself riding from place to place? Maybe you should deliver that burrito on your bike to the poor sucker who has no time and make some cash? or whatever else sounds cool. IOW get paid to do something you like and pay it back to someone to do something you don't. It'll do a lot to relieve any money, or "I'm missing out" stress. Capitalism, ain't it sweet.

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

Ego wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:35 pm
I've noticed that sacrificing is most painful when the thing I am giving up is in the forefront of my mind and the thing I am getting is not.
This is exactly what happened. The things I retired from have been absent for almost 2 years. This morning I slept until 10. I am well rested. That wasn't planned. But I don't use an alarm. While I'd hate to give it up, it no longer feels special. Meanwhile, my bathroom is dirty, again.

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:50 pm
IOW get paid to do something you like and pay it back to someone to do something you don't.
I've been considering doing just that. Braces will be going on in the next couple of weeks. I am waiting to see how my face feels, before making any other firm commitments. My ego also chafes at the prospect of doing anything for ~$15 an hour.

More importantly - I've been wondering how I'll navigate the principal agent problem. When working for a business, it's always been in my nature to act as an owner (principal). From what I understand, part time work incentivizes the exact opposite (agent). I don't know if I have it in me. More so, I don't know how I'll do surrounded by people acting as agents. It's a much different mindset.

However - the last time I worked part time was 20 years ago. I have no perspective. I need to try doing the thing.

classical_Liberal
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Re: What I Spend

Post by classical_Liberal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:09 pm
My ego also chafes at the prospect of doing anything for ~$15 an hour.
The biggest ego boost in the world is to hang around -$15/hr employees and realize you are so much free'er than them. Even more so, hint at your actually wealth, minds will be blown. It's fun!
Scott 2 wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:09 pm
More importantly - I've been wondering how I'll navigate the principal agent problem.
That's easy, you get to choose your role. Do you know any business owner who wouldn't love to get a 100+k a year talent at $15/hr? Just show your "stripes" if you want to make a difference... If you just want to chill, don't. Easy!

ertyu
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Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:36 pm
The biggest ego boost in the world is to hang around -$15/hr employees and realize you are so much free'er than them. Even more so, hint at your actually wealth, minds will be blown. It's fun!
or let go of said ego and the compulsion to service it. much simpler and freer.

classical_Liberal
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Re: What I Spend

Post by classical_Liberal »

@ertyu

Very good point and the end goal.

I was just trying to help someone in a specific situation, with a very specific psychological hang up I have suffered from.

The advice is not universal. It just does well for people who have been near my experiences with FI.

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

I hear you guys. My ego is where it is. I'd rather acknowledge that and act accordingly, than pretend otherwise. One lesson from FIRE, has been the degree of elitism I carry(ied?). It felt normal, maybe even humble, in my old world.


October 2022 Total (Couple) - $3824
Healthcare/Medical - $829
Groceries - $705
Pets/Pet Care - $622
Home Maintenance - $454
Clothing/Shoes - $448
Utilities - $351
Exercise - $258
Automotive - $94
Entertainment - $41
Streaming - $15
Phone/Email - $7

Spent $3824 against an estimate of 3991. Braces were delayed (~$400/month), so this looks better than it is.

Unusual expenses - The cat's dental was moved up. $622 for a single trip to the vet. Ouch. My parents have a dog getting similar treatment next week. Prices look comparable. Skilled labor has become very expensive. Luckily, we left a good portion of the month's budget unplanned, anticipating this expense in November.

My wife is trying to sort new winter boots, which are also very expensive. She's currently deciding between 3 pairs, so some of that $448 on shoes will be recovered via returns. Exercise costs are also high, reflecting startup using my bike as vehicle, as well as transitioning to the insurance fitness program. Thanks to my insurance deal, I've got verified access to 7 nearby gym locations.


Unusual inflows - Minor. I stopped a streaming service to save $5 per month. I finished switching my cell phone to Tello, worth around $130 per year. The ACP internet subsidy was denied. Our income from last year is $6 too high. So close. Without a paycheck, I cannot prove we fall below the threshold this year. I'll re-apply once tax forms are completed in January. I applied to be an election judge, which if it pays out, might yield a couple hundred dollars.


November 2022 Estimate - $3940 (Couple)
My initial reaction to this number - "how the hell are we spending so much???" The answer - $1500 allocated to various medical expenses. All legitimate and optimized, but it adds up fast.

My braces remain the big unknown. The orthodontist I'd carefully selected sold her practice. She's technically still working once a week, but dramatically changed her recommendations and interest in my surgeon. So I'm effectively starting over, minus my wisdom teeth. The surgeon referred me to a new orthodontist, at an unknown cost. There's also a possible periodontist dependency. Heading into the holidays, that 3 week delay could quickly become 2 months. Frustrating, to say the least.

Last month we took $0 in additional discretionary budget. This month we're each taking $150. We're working on absorbing the cat's dental, as well as some other minor expenses. I hit an inflection point, where discretionary spending goes to anticipating future needs, rather than addressing immediate constraints. Looking towards 2023, the planned discretionary budget will be $300 per month, per person. I'm going to enjoy that.

Other than volunteering as an election judge, my return to society has been slow going. Gyms are fun, but not particularly social for me. I picked up a weekly yoga class with my Mom, which is great. The big rock - volunteer work or a play job, remains on hold. I wanted to know how my face feels with braces, before making a bigger commitment. Knowing that may be delayed, I haven't decided what to do next.


Overall
October was rough. I lost a lot of physical capacity following wisdom teeth removal. My ability to chew is limited, which leads to choices like pop tarts as a meal. That combination causes cascading negative effects. And so on. To some extent, I put addressing these problems on hold, waiting for braces. With that delayed, I am additionally discouraged. My dopamine seeking behavior is high. Hours of video games. Junk food. Beer. Netflix. Poor sleep. Etc.

I recognize it's not sustainable long term, but behavior change remains in the contemplation stages. I could use a break from video games, alcohol, sugar, electronic devices, etc. The usual suspects.

Loss of capacity, coupled with exercising around young people, has me acutely aware of aging. When I was spending my 20's and 30's, I took the value of youth for granted. FIRE now gives me time to consider otherwise. I recognize doing so is a luxury. I don't know that it's constructive. But that is where I am.

Net worth is up a little, basically following the markets. Further demonstrating I have no idea what assets will do, this week I looked at year to date portfolio performance. My best returning asset class (ignoring cash) - the international bond index fund! Somehow it did less worse than US bonds, US stocks and International stocks. I could make up reasons in hindsight, but I didn't anticipate this. I simply don't know how my investments will perform.


I could take an alternate spin on all of this. I recovered from my wisdom teeth surgery. I switched to an orthodontist my surgeon likes better. I started using my bike as vehicle, making multiple successful trips to 3 different gyms. My net worth rebounded, gaining more than a year's worth of living expenses. I picked up a new weekly event with my Mom, rekindling my enjoyment of yoga. My cat got vet care a month sooner than expected and is obviously feeling better. I'm about participate more deeply in the electoral process, fortunate to have the time. And so on. I see that side too.

bostonimproper
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Re: What I Spend

Post by bostonimproper »

“behavior change remains in the contemplation stages”

I mean this as kindly as possible, but “contemplating” behavior changes sounds like kind of a delay tactic.
Maybe at the beginning of each month (hey look it’s Nov 1!) choose one behavior change you’ve been putting off and start it? Then iterate to make it more palatable and better fitting into your life.

I say this as someone who personally also would rather “think about” X than actually do X a lot of the time. 😅

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

Funny, just before checking in here, I closed out and deleted the "free to play" game that's been my worst offender. I know it short circuits my brain, cascading into the rest of life. I also removed dopamine dispensers from my phone - the web browser, email, and Netflix. I'm making space for change to emerge, rather than trying to force it.

Recent contemplation relates to how I approach life, big picture. I respond very well to goal setting, making any and all behavior changes, until the achievement is unlocked. But since everything is a means to the end, post achievement, motivation drops to zero. There's minimal lasting impact to my core identity. I swing between extremes.

So do I break life into a series of seasons, each lived in pursuit of a goal set? That's what I've done recently. It leaves me imbalanced. I never fully answer - "who do I want to be?" Instead, I figure out the tricks and earn my reward. Maybe I'm defined through my actions, so that's fine. The challenge is it's fragile. An injury or delay upsets the entire system.

There's another tact - balancing life with rituals. Exercise upon waking. Screens off at 6pm. Clean on Sunday morning. Etc. Historically, I have thrived on patterns like these - because work forced structure into my life. Doing the same via will power has been much less effective. What's the harm in gaming till 2am? I can sleep in.

So I'm torn on what behaviors to ritualize. How to use goals. And what to sacrifice. Should alcohol fit? Sugar? Video games?

When chasing a goal, dropping vices entirely is an obvious choice. Do they ever belong? There's something to be said for small pleasures. But what's the true price? Heck, what effect does binging an audio book at 2.5x speed have on me? Maybe I'd thrive reading only on paper.

Ultimately, I'm not sure who I want to be, or in which communities I want to invest. Answering that would provide direction, but it's not an easy question. I think clarity has to emerge via experimentation. I expect the path will change over time. So, I ponder.

Pre-FIRE, this was simple. Maximize my net worth. Then I'll be free. Sadly, "freedom from" was not the final answer.

ertyu
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Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

What strikes me about all the above is that it's almost entirely a cognitive process. You seem to already be excellent at the parts which require "engineering thought": set goal according to a set of overarching criteria, devise process, arrive at goal. What seems to be missing to me, here, is a well-developed connection to intuition and feeling. Now that no more goals are coming in from the outside for the engineer to chew on, you're reaching for goals set by your thinking brain -- substituting "maximize my net worth" with "should I sacrifice alcohol, sugar, and gaming." (interesting word choice input from lizard brain there haha). I see this as a kind of transitional stage: where one's thinking brain and ego attempt to provide goals to be followed in the place of "do what is necessary to perform well at my job" and "maximize my net worth to reach FI."

However, just like true ERE requires a full redesign of the system rather than simply preserving salaryman behaviors but this time with income from investments as "salary replacement," I believe true financial independence requires a redesign of the motivational system.

Long story short, imo you need to strengthen and deepen your connection with your intuition and your feeling. You have to develop your connection with yourself. Your inner knowing.

The engineer will always be there, you won't suddenly become some irrational slobbering being. But the goals you set for yourself and the directions you take will come from the core of who you are rather than from what is "rational." Eventually, the two will work together to guide you in the direction that is right for you and that feels satisfying and fulfilling.

Tl;dr: time for navel-gazing, imo. And not in the thinking/contemplation sense. In the feeling/introspection one.

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

My current best idea is to turn down the dopamine chasing, then see what I try instead. Maybe something will be good.

What is it you are thinking? I'm certainly open to a better strategy.

ertyu
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Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

I'm thinking focusing on turning down the dopamine chasing is a focus on what you want to stop doing. Instead, focus on finding and honing your inner sense of yes. The way I explained it to a friend was, "when you were into [X fandom activity] as a teen, something was yes!! about that. Then when you decided to go to school for videogame design, you decided to go towards that because something was "yes!!" about it; something pulled you." The purpose of the trip down memory lane (you can make it a nice close your eyes and say omm exercise if you want to) isn't to remember and rationalize, it's to connect to how you experience that "yes" in your body. Repeat as often as you want with whatever memories or imaginings you want. Ask yourself, what was/is "yes" about this? -- and then connect to the bodily sensation and knowing of that yes. Mine is mostly in the front of my trunk, but idk where yours will be -- you're looking for the landscape of openness and closeness, of tension and lightness, of ... i want to call it spiritual thirst but idk if that's the right word; just, the sense that something in you needs some sort of energy to take in.

The experience you're going after is non-verbal. You want to reconnect with that inner sense of rightness and what that's like for you. Then see what around you is a yes. Once you've connected with your yes, you're going to start recognizing more clearly when you're feeling it and when you aren't.

Follow that yes, and the dopamine-seeking will take care of itself.

(or at least that's my plan. so far it's working, at least when it comes to quitting my current job even though it's rationally an acceptable job, and sensing the yes/no as i peruse other listings. i figure even if nothing comes out of it, developing my ability to trust myself and be self-driven [where self =/= the thinking brain] can't hurt.)

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

Hah - my inner desire is beer + snacks + video games + 2x speed audio books. All at the same time. My brain lights up and wants to go forever. Buying a box of cookies feels pointless, because they'll be gone in a day anyways. Without choosing to sacrifice, I will never break the pattern.


Ignoring pleasure seeking, I've always been fear motivated. Goal setting works for me, because I fear not being good enough. I derive minimal value from the achievement, only relief in avoiding the failure. I spent my career constantly stressed, running from threats. Financial insecurity. Sensory overload. Social complexity. Escape was all I could see.

Thanks to the public school system, childhood wasn't any different. I'd fixate on video games or books or TV, entirely to find relief from the crashing stimulus of my education. I didn't know otherwise, so while quiet, I was as happy as I'd ever been. Those patterns repeated through holidays, because it was all I knew.


When I retired, I felt a tremendous sense of relief. It was one of the first times in my life I could stop running. I did almost nothing for months. Many of the positive choices I've made since then, are based upon reverse engineering - "what's good for a human". I do a thing for awhile, then see if life is better. If so, I try to keep it. Evidence based lifestyle design, I guess.


I think you are right that the motivation system has to change. But I don't have the tool. I never developed an inner sense of yes. I can offer my ability to hyper-fixate as substitute, but at the core, there's minimal passion or desire. I'm hoping by creating space, the tool might emerge.

Maybe not as bad as it sounds. Absent fear or desire, there's not much anger either. Just a mildly pleasant stillness. Lingering there forever - I suppose I am nervous about life wasted. Fear of death, muted by the absence of any existential threat.

white belt
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Re: What I Spend

Post by white belt »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:21 am
I think you are right that the motivation system has to change. But I don't have the tool. I never developed an inner sense of yes. I can offer my ability to hyper-fixate as substitute, but at the core, there's minimal passion or desire. I'm hoping by creating space, the tool might emerge.

Maybe not as bad as it sounds. Absent fear or desire, there's not much anger either. Just a mildly pleasant stillness. Lingering there forever - I suppose I am nervous about life wasted. Fear of death, muted by the absence of any existential threat.
I've been reading along the discussion the past few posts and find myself nodding in agreement to most of what @Ertyu says.

If you really feel like you have no inner sense of yes or desire or whatever we want to call it, then I think it is going to be very difficult to establish such a thing with virtually no guard rails or structure. You basically went from having all of your motivations externally provided while working to now trying to have all of your motivations internally provided while retired. I think that's an impossible transition for most people. As an example, I even struggle with trying to figure out what to do with my 4 days off and I'm still working full-time the 6 days prior and 6 days after each break.

I think internal motivation (or maybe motivation in general) is very much a muscle that needs development and can also suffer from fatigue. As you point out, it's tiring to always be thinking "oh man, I want to do x but I know I should really do y." That's compounded by the fact that in retirement you have the paradox of choice in that you have every hour of the day and every day of the week to do whatever you want, which can be quite paralyzing. On my 4 days off I find myself procrastinating about things quite often when I have no structure.

So, perhaps a different approach is worthwhile. You need to add some external motivation into your life, in whatever form that takes. I'll provide a few examples from my own life first.

The most successful weightlifting training period I've had is when I was working with an elite coach online. The coach's programing and feedback provided structure certainly, but I was also motivated because I was trying to improve my lifting to prepare for competition. Although I never ended up competing, the idea that I needed to put in the work every step of the way to avoid embarrassment or disappointment at a competition a few month's away really helped to push me. Yes, in theory I have all the knowledge now to implement and follow a program on my own at the moment, but the reality is I've just been drifting along in maintenance mode for the past year or so. This means maybe I was underestimating the value of the external motivation and accountability because I generally consider myself an internally motivated person.

More recently, I started playing Magic the Gathering and have grown quite an interest in competitive play. I am part of a community on Discord that shares tactics and game results from the type of deck I play, which gives me a nice community aspect at a time when doing that sort of thing in person would be impossible because of my work schedule. I even get to interact with some really high level pro players and streamers, to the point that an MTG top 10 all time player and hall of famer has played my deck in a video because he saw I had gotten good results with it in an online tournament. Along with the online play, there is a clear path for me to follow in order to qualify for a Pro Tour. That path provides structure into my life because I can throw important tournament dates on my calendar, then backwards plan for when I might need to play a tune up tournament, etc. In other words, I can apply a lot of the same principles of periodization I learned from my lifting to MTG.

So how does that translate to your life? Well it depends on what you're trying to do. Perhaps you can sign up for some kind of cycling event or join a local group that provides that extra push of external motivation and structure? Or depending on the type of video games you are playing, join a group/guild/team that plays the same game? These are just examples but I'm sure you can come up with something that fits and can nudge you in the direction you'd like to move towards without you having to internally motivate yourself for everything. You don't need to turn everything into a competition or a group activity, but at certain point you have to leverage your own character traits. Use your fear of failure as an advantage (at least to a point, obviously you don't want to live your entire existence in such a place). I think only by the trial and error of actually doing will you be able to move closer to an inner sense of yes.

white belt
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Re: What I Spend

Post by white belt »

On a related note, I think many people underestimate the positives of the structure that a job provides. Just the fact that you have to be somewhere at some time really shapes the decisions you make. Most people think this is negative e.g. "I don't want to have to set an alarm or go to a stupid office" but I think there are a lot of unrecognized positives. For example, you might prioritize things that need to get done the day prior because you know you have limited time. Or you might not stay up all night playing video games because you don't want to be useless in the morning. Of course you don't need a job to provide this structure, but you do need something that motivates you to get up in the morning, even if it's as simple as feeding a pet or not missing the cycling group ride. Humans are creatures of habit and need something to get them out of bed in the morning, whether that thing is perceived as positive or negative may matter less than we think.

classical_Liberal
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Re: What I Spend

Post by classical_Liberal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:21 am
Ignoring pleasure seeking, I've always been fear motivated. Goal setting works for me, because I fear not being good enough. I derive minimal value from the achievement, only relief in avoiding the failure.
I can relate to this. Fear of not meeting or exceeding others expectations a a primary motivator.

I forget, have you ever tried any therapy? I have used it as a short term tool on several occasions through my life. Despite my misgivings, it can actually be really helpful if you it approach as, "I Have this problem and would like tools to overcome it". If you haven't, maybe a try a few focused sessions with a pro? Basically read the therapist that paragraph and ask for help or tools to train yourself to think in terms of different motivations. I've had best results in singular issues like this (ie I don't want full psycho analysis) with someone who is trained in Cognitive and/or Dialectal Behavior Therapy.

ertyu
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Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

A brief solution-focused therapist would also provide tools for something like this without "psychoanalysis" or dwelling on the past

Scott 2
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Re: What I Spend

Post by Scott 2 »

@classical_liberal - I tried therapy earlier this year, specifically relating to my probable autism. I gave it 6 sessions. I found the experience interesting, but don't think it augmented my own ability to introspect. Insights were due to the time invested, rather than the therapist.

This journal often reflects my introspective process. I'll write and rewrite a post, not only for the audience of 10, but because it refines my own understanding. I am doing that now. The therapist provided a similar audience, but lacked the breadth of experience to offer feedback found here.


@white belt - Above I describe a "season of goals" strategy. How does what you are suggesting differ?

When I pick a goal, I invest my will power in creating supporting infrastructure. I sign up for a target date event. I socialize the idea. I start my day with the most important related tasks. I learn about and throw money at my constraints. I project and visualize what is achievable. I go to the place locally, where people do it the best. When will power lapses, it's not a big deal. I'm not using it to grind.

Seasons of goals have been an effective alternative to work. I'm just not convinced they are the final answer. Once the goal is met (or fails), a void remains. Even the relationships tend to fade, since there's rarely a broader intersection of beliefs or values.

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement on the value structure can offer. That's some of why I'd consider part time work or volunteering.


Letting go of achievement as a motivator, I want to:

1. Do things I enjoy or value
2. With people who share my interests AND values

Ideally the community is local and will persist for years. Criteria #2 is a high bar and new to my life.

Just today, I returned the key card for a local gym. The equipment was great. But it failed both tests. The bike ride absolutely sucks. More importantly - the community does not share my values or other interests. Nothing against high school football or the police, but I'm not a fit.

In the past, since this is the strongest gym offered by my insurance, I would have stayed. Everything else would be secondary to my lifting goal.


I recently read the Almanac of Naval Ravikant. He describes this as "play long term games with long term people".

https://www.navalmanack.com/almanack-of ... erm-people

Unfortunately, most of my long term people are locked behind the work paywall, located in another state. That's a real short coming of my prior strategy. I don't want to live virtually or travel constantly. Remote work wasn't a great answer. I built my community in the wrong place.

The long term threads could already run through my local communities. It's possible I'm blind to them and simply need to lean in. I think this is where the experimentation comes in. By making space to try some stuff, maybe I'll find them. My Post-FIRE motivational structure could emerge.

shaz
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Location: Colorado, US

Re: What I Spend

Post by shaz »

"Do a thing for awhile, then see if life is better" seems like a decent approach to me. I think finding the things that really light you up can be a matter of serendipity.

ertyu
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Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

If a physical listener / therapist isn't necessarily key to your introspection, you might get a lot out of just journaling through what a brief solution focused therapy session is likely to be. I'm studying it now, with a view of applying it to myself. BSFT attracts me because it assumes every session is always the last.

I will give this issue a try, with the disclaimer that a qualified professional would certainly do a better job than someone who read two therapist manuals and called it a day.

So, let's say you showed up to a BSFT therapist with the following:
Ignoring pleasure seeking, I've always been fear motivated. Goal setting works for me, because I fear not being good enough. I derive minimal value from the achievement, only relief in avoiding the failure.
A therapist would begin by making sure they understand the problem. For instance, they would say something like: "so in the past, you've been successful this way and it creates results, but it hasn't been a very satisfying way to approach life for you."

I think you've got this stage covered. The idea is to understand in objective terms what bothers you without catastrophizing or blaming yourself for it or blowing the problem beyond proportion. "I have gone far with this approach; it brings results, but it doesn't result in me leading a fulfilling life" is a fair statement.

If you feel like there's more to it, you can spend some more time journaling on the topic.

Next, a BSFT therapist is likely to ask you about your best hopes for working on this issue this session: after talking (or in this case, completing this written exercise), how would you know the process has been useful to you?

They will prompt you to define this in positive, rather than negative terms. For instance, if a person answers something like, "I don't want to approach motivation this way anymore" (another example of a goal defined in negative terms: "I want to stop gaming and drinking and eating junk food") -- if a person answers in negative terms, the therapist is likely to follow with something along the lines of, "And how will that be useful to your life?"

Most people would be able to move towards something defined in positive terms: "I will feel more fulfilled while setting and pursuing goals," or "I will be more internally motivated" for instance (your answers may vary). The therapist will ask the person to elaborate ("And if you're more internally motivated, how will that be useful to your life"), so aim for detailed, paragraph-long answers rather than single sentences.

Next, we come to the meat of the exercise. The therapist will ask you to envision, in great detail, the following: "suppose a miracle happens while you sleep (so you don't know it's happened). As a result of the miracle, the problem is solved - but you don't know it is. What are the first signs you'll notice that will tell you the problem is no longer there?"

Again, envision this in as comprehensive detail as you can:

Where will you be? What time of the day will it be? If answer in negative terms ("I won't automatically open social media when I sit down with my morning coffee"), follow that up with, "What will you be doing instead?"
Who else will be there? What signs will they see, what behaviors would they observe that will tell them the problem has disappeared miraculously? How will they react?--what behaviours and signs would you notice in them that tell you they've noticed the problem is solved and they feel X way about it?

When you have exhausted that, ask yourself, "what else will you notice?"

"what else" and "what would you [do/see/feel/act like] instead? are the key questions. Ask them of yourself multiple times -- and when you think you're done, ask them once again.

What was most interesting to me about BSFT is that the purpose of this exercise is not to create a to-do list. You're not on the hook for implementing those behaviors. In fact, the behaviors you ultimately implement to solve the problem might be completely different. The purpose is to put oneself in a different mindset in relation to the problem and to begin feeling differently around the problem. The purpose is to open up the space and envision possibilities in a pressure-free way. The actual "to do" list is almost an afterthought - the engineer is there, he knows his job, he'll sort it out. He always has before, he'll sort if now, too. You're just enlarging the parameter space for him.

The next set of thought exercises [this could be a separate journaling session] revolve around scaling: "If 0 is complete disaster and 10 is, problem is solved perfectly, where are you now?" If you answer, say, a 4: "What makes it not 3?" "And what would 5 look like?" "What would 4.5 look like?" -- again, the most surprising thing for me was that the purpose of this exercise is not to generate a to-do list, it is to let your imagination off the hook and envision what you'll be doing, who you'll be with, how you'll be feeling, etc. Aim for detail and as elaborate a picture as you can. Visualize your mental state, your surroundings. As with the miracle question, the purpose isn't a to-do list of actions, it's an as rich mental image as you can. Don't forget "what else?" and "what instead?"

The next stage includes noticing that no one has problems on max 24/7 for the entirety of their lives. There were always instances, in everyone's life, where the problem either wasn't there, was partially solved, was fully solved for some time, or was not solved but simply wasn't at full intensity. At some point during your life, you have done at least one thing that wasn't out of fear or out of dopamine seeking. For instance, I am sitting and writing out this post right now - it must be meaningful to me to be doing that in some way, right? I am not doing it out of dopamine seeking, and I am not doing it because I have some goal I've set for myself or some set of expectations I'm afraid to fall short of. Yet I am doing it -- what is my inner state while doing it? What does wanting to do it feel like for me??

If you really let yourself think and remember, and also if you just watch yourself live, you're going to discover or remember similar moments. Maybe you were partially motivated by dopamine seeking or by fear - but not just by that. Maybe it was a while ago, or maybe it was an activity that you no longer wish to pursue -- doesn't matter. What matters is, if you managed to temporarily or partially solve the problem, what was that like for you? How did you manage to do that? What skills and attitudes and character traits did you have that allowed you to do that? What help did you have? Etc.

Throughout this process, always be on the lookout for things to pat yourself on the back for - things you did well, or at least things you didn't do badly. What was interesting and useful to me was that because BSFT was developed before the big positive psychology / law of attraction / positive thinking bs, it's very down-to earth about this: for instance, a BSFT therapist wouldn't ask you to write three things you're grateful for every day; they'll ask you, between this session and the next, watch out for things you're doing that you want to keep doing. Simple, right? Yet it makes such a big difference to me temperamentally. I might not be able to go, "great job self, we made our bed!!!" but I can certainly go, "hm, making the bed, good and useful action, it's good and useful to me that I did that, I'd like to keep doing that"

The second thing that was interesting and useful to me about this approach was that it deliberately doesn't focus on to do lists. When the focus is on to do lists, well, I can produce a to-do list, I can break a problem into composite actions, etc., but this stays a cerebral process. It doesn't engage my motivation or clear out and deepen my understanding of how this is an expression of key values that are important to me. I hope the approach is useful to you too.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: What I Spend

Post by ertyu »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:28 pm
Letting go of achievement as a motivator, I want to:

1. Do things I enjoy or value
2. With people who share my interests AND values

Unfortunately, most of my long term people are locked behind the work paywall, located in another state. That's a real short coming of my prior strategy. I don't want to live virtually or travel constantly. Remote work wasn't a great answer. I built my community in the wrong place.
This is making me think that the following goal might be useful: discover what local community is there. Notice I'm not saying "create a community for yourself around X goal or activity" -- rather, investigate who's around and find out what they're into. Maybe you'll find overlap with activities you're into -- or maybe you'll discover things to check out that you wouldn't have necessarily thought about.

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