My plan has always been to go to massage school, because 1) my dad would pay for tuition + fees, 2) I could live at home, 3) It would only take nine months, and 4) massage therapists make $50+ an hour.
But I really, really, really want to go to art school. I spend most of my day drawing (or reading). I've been taking art classes since they started being offered. It excites me like nothing else.
It's also in San Francisco, rather than my suburb. I'm kind of scared that, if I don't get out now, I never will--I might move to Seattle or something, but I won't take a chance on anything bigger than that, because I'll be too settled (job, then family, etc).
Art school is $50k+ a year, so I'd be graduating with around $200k in student loans. Although, according to a recent post by mikebos (lackingambition.com), one doesn't have to pay their loans if they make less than 150% of poverty level, and the debt is forgiven after 25 years.
Needless to say (?), if I went to art school, I would probably be out of the ERE-running.
For the love of God, talk me out of art school!
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AlexOliver
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Income-Based Repayment (IBR) was what I was writing about. It only works with the federal loans so be careful not to take out any private student loans (most people don't have to anyway because the federal ones often cover everything).
The fear that if you don't do it now then you never will is legitimate, I think. But less likely for a dedicated ERE-er. I can see that if one's life plan is to build a 30 year career and raise a family, it would be tough to interrupt that for a few years of studying art. But if your plan is to live some version of retirement by your 30's or 40's. Well, there will be plenty of time then to take on whatever you want.
That said, I agree with B. So long as you don't absolutely loathe the idea, take the free massage school while it's being offered. Try that job on for size. And you can make a decision about art school at that point and you could also consider various part-time/full-time work/art-school arrangements.
Or you could do exactly what I propositioned in my post. Maximize your income in whatever ways you can for the next few years. Then, by taking advantage of IBR, you can essentially get paid to go to art school when you're, say, 25 or so. Because your investments will be compounding while you're studying what you love.
The fear that if you don't do it now then you never will is legitimate, I think. But less likely for a dedicated ERE-er. I can see that if one's life plan is to build a 30 year career and raise a family, it would be tough to interrupt that for a few years of studying art. But if your plan is to live some version of retirement by your 30's or 40's. Well, there will be plenty of time then to take on whatever you want.
That said, I agree with B. So long as you don't absolutely loathe the idea, take the free massage school while it's being offered. Try that job on for size. And you can make a decision about art school at that point and you could also consider various part-time/full-time work/art-school arrangements.
Or you could do exactly what I propositioned in my post. Maximize your income in whatever ways you can for the next few years. Then, by taking advantage of IBR, you can essentially get paid to go to art school when you're, say, 25 or so. Because your investments will be compounding while you're studying what you love.
I agree with the massage school. As a young person, 9 months feels like eternity, but it really isn't. And you'll have a marketable skill that you can use as a freelance tool while you are making your art (whenever that occurs down the road) and income isn't as steady.
As an aside, I wanted to respond to something you said in an earlier thread: "Art isn't something that is done 9-5, it happens when it happens." While you may only make good art when you are in the throes of inspiration, all the creative types I have been in contact with (and that is a lot; my Mom is a professional artist) have said that it is important to always make art, as discipline plays a significant role in determining when your inspiration will next strike. Just wanted to get that out there
Good luck!
As an aside, I wanted to respond to something you said in an earlier thread: "Art isn't something that is done 9-5, it happens when it happens." While you may only make good art when you are in the throes of inspiration, all the creative types I have been in contact with (and that is a lot; my Mom is a professional artist) have said that it is important to always make art, as discipline plays a significant role in determining when your inspiration will next strike. Just wanted to get that out there
Good luck!
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AlexOliver
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The only problem with going to art school a year, or five years, or ten years, out of high school, is getting letters of recommendation. Right now, I have a couple art teachers who can recommend me highly. In two years, they won't remember me.
You're definitely right about discipline, Benjamin.
I'll have a lot of thinking to do in the next week or so, thanks guys.
You're definitely right about discipline, Benjamin.
I'll have a lot of thinking to do in the next week or so, thanks guys.
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George the original one
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For the recommendations, get them written now and it won't matter in 2 years. There's no reason you can't just hang on to the letters.
My cousin's youngest son is pursuing an art career. He's currently ended up in Europe, mostly Germany and Denmark, but is still trying to figure out how to make a living with art... part of his problem is that his art is performance-oriented, so his "portfolio" is rather hard to accumulate.
I don't know if he's been funding this with student loans or not. Nearing 30, he's on the cusp of making it, so he's still charging hard, but, at the same token, he may burn out in a couple years if he doesn't find some success.
I suppose what I'm saying is that if you take a year to create that back-up income of being a massage therapist, then the art will come anyways.
My cousin's youngest son is pursuing an art career. He's currently ended up in Europe, mostly Germany and Denmark, but is still trying to figure out how to make a living with art... part of his problem is that his art is performance-oriented, so his "portfolio" is rather hard to accumulate.
I don't know if he's been funding this with student loans or not. Nearing 30, he's on the cusp of making it, so he's still charging hard, but, at the same token, he may burn out in a couple years if he doesn't find some success.
I suppose what I'm saying is that if you take a year to create that back-up income of being a massage therapist, then the art will come anyways.
I hate to be the one to rain on anybody's parade, but in my experience art school, like culinary school, is a very expensive place to learn technique and experiment but a poor place to improve one's prospect of earning a living from the experience. I have one friend who went to the Academy of Art in SF. She is an excellent ceramacist, with a vibrant and varied portfolio. But she hasn't made a dime years after graduating. I have another friend who spent $20K for culinary school training. He's had two unpaid internships and currently works part-time for a rehab facility preparing lunch and dinner for the clients and teaching them about health nutrition. Both love their work but are seriously impoverished. And they don't have any loan debt to repay. That would make their situation a nightmare.
All I'm really saying is use some caution to temper the enthusiasm.
All I'm really saying is use some caution to temper the enthusiasm.
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Mr. Overlord
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@MikeBos: Thanks for the info on IBR. Do you know off hand if there's an asset based test or is it simply an income to debt ratio? I looked through all the FAQs and didn't see anything about people being disqualified based on the value of their assets.
My student debt payments aren't all that high compared to what others may be paying, but they would be a significant percentage of a post ERE income. It seems like it could be a good idea to apply for IBR, especially since the FAQs suggest that if you do happen to return to a higher income for a period of time, and then return to low income, they'll only require you to make higher payments in the high income years.
Edit: I read your post over at lacking ambition and noted that you also believe assets are not considered, only income. Thanks for the info.
My student debt payments aren't all that high compared to what others may be paying, but they would be a significant percentage of a post ERE income. It seems like it could be a good idea to apply for IBR, especially since the FAQs suggest that if you do happen to return to a higher income for a period of time, and then return to low income, they'll only require you to make higher payments in the high income years.
Edit: I read your post over at lacking ambition and noted that you also believe assets are not considered, only income. Thanks for the info.
Alex,
In the same way that you can't take a "course" on "critical thinking", to some extent it is true for art also. It is a certain talent, an "aha" thing. My father can play virtually *any* musical instrument by ear, and my brother can too. I will probably invoke the living dead just by holding a musical instrument in my hands.... Cest la vie! But that's fine by me. I have other talents up my sleeve.
"Art school"/Architecture courses might explain the nuts and bolts but can't make you any more better/worse than your "own" creativity potential. If you can earn money via massage, and you will incur no debt while learning it, my recommendation is to grab that offer from your father first, and hit the ground running straight away.
Hell!, maybe you can even relocate to SF! If you read blogs like that Financial Samurai (whose style and approach I personally find quite revolting) you will come away thinking SF is full of rich slickers who will pay good money for well being and personalised massage. That way you can case the joint in SF, while earning some bucks from your "real" skills.
Lastly, life may have other plans for you in the time you are in massage school. And you might end up counting your blessings that you didn't take the art school after all.
P.S: Recommendation letters don't have expiry dates, BTW. My employer recommendation from 1997 is still good as gold, and so will be yours too!
Good Luck, dear!
In the same way that you can't take a "course" on "critical thinking", to some extent it is true for art also. It is a certain talent, an "aha" thing. My father can play virtually *any* musical instrument by ear, and my brother can too. I will probably invoke the living dead just by holding a musical instrument in my hands.... Cest la vie! But that's fine by me. I have other talents up my sleeve.
"Art school"/Architecture courses might explain the nuts and bolts but can't make you any more better/worse than your "own" creativity potential. If you can earn money via massage, and you will incur no debt while learning it, my recommendation is to grab that offer from your father first, and hit the ground running straight away.
Hell!, maybe you can even relocate to SF! If you read blogs like that Financial Samurai (whose style and approach I personally find quite revolting) you will come away thinking SF is full of rich slickers who will pay good money for well being and personalised massage. That way you can case the joint in SF, while earning some bucks from your "real" skills.
Lastly, life may have other plans for you in the time you are in massage school. And you might end up counting your blessings that you didn't take the art school after all.
P.S: Recommendation letters don't have expiry dates, BTW. My employer recommendation from 1997 is still good as gold, and so will be yours too!
Good Luck, dear!
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jacob
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Here's what I'd like to know ...
1) The placement ratios? Where do people actually end up? (the official advertising may say they're having their paintings shown in a gallery, but maybe they're really trying to teach first graders to finger paint, or maybe they're teaching other aspiring artists to become teachers like themselves?)
2) What do artists actually do? (You may think you'll be painting all day, but what you'll really spend most of your time doing is dealing with customers and trying to find work?)
I read the following conversation once (I think it was in "Debt is slavery") where a youngling asked the author what he did: "I design airplanes." Well, what does that mean? And it was eventually narrowed down to "I sit in front of a computer all day using a CAD program to design one of the ducts in the A/C system "or something.
"Passion" to me sends up red flags. This may be because passion for me has rarely lasted beyond 10 years. MY interests change. I've noted the following progression with many things (see book, it's a 6 step progression CCCCCC).
1) Accumulate facts/research.
2) Product development.
3) Marketing and promotion (this is where ERE is now and where I retired from physics).
4) Management and distribution.
I know from experience that I don't enjoy the third step at all. I suspect I don't enjoy the fourth step. I think I'm competent enough to do four, but I'm below average when it comes to three.
I would suspect that art, since it delivers a product, follows the same progression. For a capitalistic world that rewards you monetarily, it's a lot better to be "just good enough" at 1 and 2 and 4, but excel at 3. I've seen it in physics and I've seen it in blogging. I bet it holds everywhere.
1) The placement ratios? Where do people actually end up? (the official advertising may say they're having their paintings shown in a gallery, but maybe they're really trying to teach first graders to finger paint, or maybe they're teaching other aspiring artists to become teachers like themselves?)
2) What do artists actually do? (You may think you'll be painting all day, but what you'll really spend most of your time doing is dealing with customers and trying to find work?)
I read the following conversation once (I think it was in "Debt is slavery") where a youngling asked the author what he did: "I design airplanes." Well, what does that mean? And it was eventually narrowed down to "I sit in front of a computer all day using a CAD program to design one of the ducts in the A/C system "or something.
"Passion" to me sends up red flags. This may be because passion for me has rarely lasted beyond 10 years. MY interests change. I've noted the following progression with many things (see book, it's a 6 step progression CCCCCC).
1) Accumulate facts/research.
2) Product development.
3) Marketing and promotion (this is where ERE is now and where I retired from physics).
4) Management and distribution.
I know from experience that I don't enjoy the third step at all. I suspect I don't enjoy the fourth step. I think I'm competent enough to do four, but I'm below average when it comes to three.
I would suspect that art, since it delivers a product, follows the same progression. For a capitalistic world that rewards you monetarily, it's a lot better to be "just good enough" at 1 and 2 and 4, but excel at 3. I've seen it in physics and I've seen it in blogging. I bet it holds everywhere.
@Mr. Overlord
Again with the rain...
The problem I see with MikeBOS's proposed plan is that the FAFSA application required to apply for federal loans takes into account one's assets. If you've already acquired your ERE nut, it will probably result in eligibility for a lower loan amount, perhaps an insufficient amount to acquire the degree contemplated. As he noted, the private loans that are unrestricted as to amount don't qualify for the IBR treatment. I don't believe IBR is going to be the panacea.
Again with the rain...
The problem I see with MikeBOS's proposed plan is that the FAFSA application required to apply for federal loans takes into account one's assets. If you've already acquired your ERE nut, it will probably result in eligibility for a lower loan amount, perhaps an insufficient amount to acquire the degree contemplated. As he noted, the private loans that are unrestricted as to amount don't qualify for the IBR treatment. I don't believe IBR is going to be the panacea.
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Mr. Overlord
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Maus is right about that. When applying for financial aid they ask about all assets over $2,700 that aren't 1. your primary residence or 2. in a tax-advantaged retirement account, 3. life insurance or 4. annuity.
It also allows you to exclude 5. any assets that are owned by a small-business owned by the applicant, no matter the value of the assets of the business, so long as the business has fewer than 100 full-time employees.
Given the multiple exceptions available I'd feel confident in being able to get just about all of a $300k nest-egg covered. For example 5 years of work x$16,000/year into a 401k will come to be, after capital gains, about $100k in assets. If you earn less than a certain amount you can also put $5,000/year into a traditional IRA. Which ties up another $30k or so. You could buy a primary residence that needs retrofitting and also has rental potential while you're in school, which would make it another asset-protected investment vehicle. With the rest of my money I would probably start a real estate rental business and tie my money up in rental properties. All of which would not be counted as assets under the small business exemption so long as you're running a bona fide business and not just renting out the family vacation house. You could start a jewelry buying and selling business and tie up a lot of money in precious metals, or get into commodities trading. You could start your own hedge fund business or capital management company, make some kind of effort to get others to allow you to manage their money, and you could tie up all your own money in it as well and you have a business that allows you to trade stocks but also not have to report them as assets since they will fall under the small business exemption. Of course, you can't just do this in order to game the system, you have to make a bona fide effort to start a business. But it doesn't have to be some huge thing, you managing your own and a little of one other person's money is a business.
Anyway, maybe this is all just a bit too clever.
It also allows you to exclude 5. any assets that are owned by a small-business owned by the applicant, no matter the value of the assets of the business, so long as the business has fewer than 100 full-time employees.
Given the multiple exceptions available I'd feel confident in being able to get just about all of a $300k nest-egg covered. For example 5 years of work x$16,000/year into a 401k will come to be, after capital gains, about $100k in assets. If you earn less than a certain amount you can also put $5,000/year into a traditional IRA. Which ties up another $30k or so. You could buy a primary residence that needs retrofitting and also has rental potential while you're in school, which would make it another asset-protected investment vehicle. With the rest of my money I would probably start a real estate rental business and tie my money up in rental properties. All of which would not be counted as assets under the small business exemption so long as you're running a bona fide business and not just renting out the family vacation house. You could start a jewelry buying and selling business and tie up a lot of money in precious metals, or get into commodities trading. You could start your own hedge fund business or capital management company, make some kind of effort to get others to allow you to manage their money, and you could tie up all your own money in it as well and you have a business that allows you to trade stocks but also not have to report them as assets since they will fall under the small business exemption. Of course, you can't just do this in order to game the system, you have to make a bona fide effort to start a business. But it doesn't have to be some huge thing, you managing your own and a little of one other person's money is a business.
Anyway, maybe this is all just a bit too clever.
Jacob is right, your interests and passion will probably change over time. That's fine if you spent your previous time doing something you love but when you go into debt you are investing time in the future that you may not enjoy. At that point there is no way out. Not even bankruptcy gets you out of student loans.
You can become an architect at a state school for a lot less money. With a massage certificate you could easily support yourself during school and graduate with no debt.
You can become an architect at a state school for a lot less money. With a massage certificate you could easily support yourself during school and graduate with no debt.
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AlexOliver
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An option is to apply now and defer admission for a year while I do massage school, and work at least part-time while in school.
I'm not expecting to make any money on art. I harbor no false expectations of what the architecture profession is. I know it requires a lot of ass-kissing, letting bosses pan your work off as their own, and generally losing any sense of dignity you may of had.
@Surio: You said, "In the same way that you can't take a "course" on "critical thinking", to some extent it is true for art also."
This is true, but I've learned so much and felt like I've grown so much since being in college, at least in the right courses with the right professors, and especially so with my drawing classes. In both critical thinking and art.
I'm not expecting to make any money on art. I harbor no false expectations of what the architecture profession is. I know it requires a lot of ass-kissing, letting bosses pan your work off as their own, and generally losing any sense of dignity you may of had.
@Surio: You said, "In the same way that you can't take a "course" on "critical thinking", to some extent it is true for art also."
This is true, but I've learned so much and felt like I've grown so much since being in college, at least in the right courses with the right professors, and especially so with my drawing classes. In both critical thinking and art.
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jacob
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@AlexOliver -
"I'm not expecting to make any money on art. I harbor no false expectations of what the architecture profession is. I know it requires a lot of ass-kissing, letting bosses pan your work off as their own, and generally losing any sense of dignity you may of had."
And you're willing to spend $200,000 on this experience, that is, work for 5-10 years to pay for it? Also consider how the experience may taint/alter your perception of art. Consider that when passion is involved: If you love something with a passion, you'd likely be equally capable of hating or at least resenting it with the same level of passion.
In terms of assets and debts, also consider that it's easier to save $200,000 than it is to pay back $200,000. Saving creates a tail wind. Paying off debt is a head wind. If you get it at 3%, then you'll be paying $6000/year in interest before ever touching principal. This is fine if you can put $30000 away against it. If you can only put $12000, you'll be paying it off at half speed.
If you can pay as you go, no debt, then you have to option to bail out at any time, and you could think of it as a very expensive hobby instead.
"I'm not expecting to make any money on art. I harbor no false expectations of what the architecture profession is. I know it requires a lot of ass-kissing, letting bosses pan your work off as their own, and generally losing any sense of dignity you may of had."
And you're willing to spend $200,000 on this experience, that is, work for 5-10 years to pay for it? Also consider how the experience may taint/alter your perception of art. Consider that when passion is involved: If you love something with a passion, you'd likely be equally capable of hating or at least resenting it with the same level of passion.
In terms of assets and debts, also consider that it's easier to save $200,000 than it is to pay back $200,000. Saving creates a tail wind. Paying off debt is a head wind. If you get it at 3%, then you'll be paying $6000/year in interest before ever touching principal. This is fine if you can put $30000 away against it. If you can only put $12000, you'll be paying it off at half speed.
If you can pay as you go, no debt, then you have to option to bail out at any time, and you could think of it as a very expensive hobby instead.
@AlexOliver, I paid off about $140k in loans from medical school, and it seemed like a rough haul-- even with a high salary.
I wouldn't borrow $200k for an art degree. Some of my bias comes from seeing the path my sister followed-- she has an art degree and works in SF now (seems to be an okay gig now, she designs custom rugs or something like that). Her first job out of art school: Hooter's Waitress, for several years. She eventually started her own business which got her experience and exposure to allow her to get the rug job. I really don't have any idea what she earns, but it doesn't look like a lot based on traditional consumer assumptions.
Strangely, choosing to live on $800/mo is much more fun than being forced to. Once you have the debt, you are forced to.
$200k in post-tax dollars is a huge amount of money. I didn't really understand the amount of effort it takes to accumulate that much money until I was in my 30s. The most likely scenario is that you will spend most of your life forced to work in order to pay off that debt.
In theory, you might be able to pull of something like what mikeBOS has described with IBR, but the loophole he has discussed could easily be closed before you even enter repayment. Also, you might find yourself in some very ironic situations-- like not being able to keep your income low enough for long enough. Even if you did make it work, you'd have to be OK with the idea that you intentionally gamed the system to your advantage in a way that wasn't honest. Similarly you could fake a medical disability to have your student loans discharged (another way to avoid paying back the $200k).
It would seem that there might be some state schools that offer art programs that you could do for less than $200k. I went to a pretty low tier state school because it was more affordable, and have never regretted it. My passion for getting As (not a joke) eventually got me to top tier public and private academics, even the Ivy League. You could do the same with art. Is there evidence that the majority of artists come from expensive schools?
I wouldn't borrow $200k for an art degree. Some of my bias comes from seeing the path my sister followed-- she has an art degree and works in SF now (seems to be an okay gig now, she designs custom rugs or something like that). Her first job out of art school: Hooter's Waitress, for several years. She eventually started her own business which got her experience and exposure to allow her to get the rug job. I really don't have any idea what she earns, but it doesn't look like a lot based on traditional consumer assumptions.
Strangely, choosing to live on $800/mo is much more fun than being forced to. Once you have the debt, you are forced to.
$200k in post-tax dollars is a huge amount of money. I didn't really understand the amount of effort it takes to accumulate that much money until I was in my 30s. The most likely scenario is that you will spend most of your life forced to work in order to pay off that debt.
In theory, you might be able to pull of something like what mikeBOS has described with IBR, but the loophole he has discussed could easily be closed before you even enter repayment. Also, you might find yourself in some very ironic situations-- like not being able to keep your income low enough for long enough. Even if you did make it work, you'd have to be OK with the idea that you intentionally gamed the system to your advantage in a way that wasn't honest. Similarly you could fake a medical disability to have your student loans discharged (another way to avoid paying back the $200k).
It would seem that there might be some state schools that offer art programs that you could do for less than $200k. I went to a pretty low tier state school because it was more affordable, and have never regretted it. My passion for getting As (not a joke) eventually got me to top tier public and private academics, even the Ivy League. You could do the same with art. Is there evidence that the majority of artists come from expensive schools?
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AlexOliver
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"Is there evidence that the majority of artists come from expensive schools?"
Art is a lot more personal to me than that. I don't care where "the majority of artists" went or how expensive their schools were...because I'm not trying to become them.
The architecture program I'm applying to (California College of the Arts) is ranked much higher than the University of Washington's (my state), and is a lot less competitive to get into. I don't think another public college in my state has an architecture program.
There are three state schools that are any good in Washington, and honestly, I doubt I could get into them, even if I wanted to. My grades in high school weren't that good, my SAT scores were par for the course, I didn't do any extracurriculars or win any awards. My portfolio really sets me out, which is how I would be able to get into art school. State schools don't take that into account.
If I deferred admission to art school for a year and went to massage school in that time, when I got to art school, I could work 10-20 hours a week, would make me $25k-$50k a year, paying for anywhere from half to the whole cost of tuition, fees, and living expenses.
What are your opinions on that scenario?
Art is a lot more personal to me than that. I don't care where "the majority of artists" went or how expensive their schools were...because I'm not trying to become them.
The architecture program I'm applying to (California College of the Arts) is ranked much higher than the University of Washington's (my state), and is a lot less competitive to get into. I don't think another public college in my state has an architecture program.
There are three state schools that are any good in Washington, and honestly, I doubt I could get into them, even if I wanted to. My grades in high school weren't that good, my SAT scores were par for the course, I didn't do any extracurriculars or win any awards. My portfolio really sets me out, which is how I would be able to get into art school. State schools don't take that into account.
If I deferred admission to art school for a year and went to massage school in that time, when I got to art school, I could work 10-20 hours a week, would make me $25k-$50k a year, paying for anywhere from half to the whole cost of tuition, fees, and living expenses.
What are your opinions on that scenario?