Lightfruit55's Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
ertyu
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by ertyu »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:54 am
By "desiring parenthood for its own sake", do you mean for purely altruistic reasons?
No, I mean that you don't seem to have an intrinsic desire for the experience of parenthood. You sound more like you're trying to logic yourself into going against what you know is your inner truth: that this is not an experience you feel called to deep down

chenda
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by chenda »

Are you or are you likely to become an aunt lightfruit ? For me this is more than enough to satisfy the little maternal instinct I have. It's great because you have all the fun side and zero responsibility.

I agree with @ertyu it doesn't sound like you feel called to it. Do you maybe fear loosing your partner if you don't?

Frita
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by Frita »

Why I lean towards being childfree

- Having and raising a child is essentially Russian roulette. Everything can go south very fast. From risk in childbirth to having a child with special needs to raising a rotten human being despite best efforts. These outcomes would be disastrous for my life and I don’t think I’m willing to bear the cross. There is also no exit strategy.
I agree that having a child is a commitment like none other. One is unable to interview the child to see if it’s a good fit. I appreciate and respect your willingness to examine whether you can live up to that commitment rather than just go for it.

From my point of view/personal experience and bias from a career in education/mental health and going to extreme lengths to build my own family (If you want more details, feel free to PM.), some people choose an exit strategy to parenthood by denial-driven default. This includes being emotional children/teenagers trapped in adult bodies, abandonment by addiction (including process addictions like work, gaming, etc), meeting physical needs and neglecting the emotional ones, using the child to meet power and control needs (i.e., molding into the parent’s vision), creating confusion by saying one thing and doing another, and farming out care to daycare, schools, etc. There seems to be enough cultural wiggle room in American culture to get away with inadequate parenting and celebration for the illusion of commitment.

Ugh, I don’t mean to be such a bummer. Being a mom is the most important, most fulfilling, hardest thing I have ever done. It is okay to take your time to decide what is best for you.

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

2022 END OF YEAR REVIEW AND 2023 GOALS

HEALTH

2022: Was beset with health problems last year - Covid (the whole works, including loss of smell/taste), bad case of fever and stomach pain (possibly food poisoning) and a fractured toe.
Also blew a chunk of money on my teeth. I’m obsessed with straight and clean teeth. I have been faithfully wearing retainers nightly since I took off my braces in my teens), and had to fabricate a new pair this year. I also visited the dentist twice for general check up and cleaning, and each time the dentist found several minor decay which I was advised to fix at an early stage. Unfortunately, despite best efforts to care for my teeth (including religious daily flossing), my teeth are prone to decay (bad genetics apparently). Oh well.
Also spent some money to refresh some vaccinations.

2023: Go for a full body and dental check up, at the very least. Otherwise, mostly out of my control and I hope that 2023 will be kinder to me, health-wise.

FITNESS

2022: Managed again to work out consistently (5-6 times per week). I’m so proud of myself for keeping to my fitness habit for many years now. Even when I was on holiday or sick, I would still keep to this habit the best I could (by replacing my workout with light one, a 10-15k walk or with an upper body one when I suffered from a fractured toe).

2023: Maintain 5-6x workout/week.

NUTRITION

2022: Generally pleased with my mindful eating and snacking habits. Generally did not overeat and I don’t think that I could anymore as “eating only until enough” is more or less a conscious part of my new identity (see previous post on eating). I wished I didn’t have the bad habit of snacking but I don’t aim to be perfect. Since snacking is more likely than not going to be a permanent vice in my life, I resolved to mindfully consume only/mostly high quality snacks (fresh bakes, artisanal chocolates, craft beverages, and the likes). I did just that though this came at the expense of fairly high expenditure in this category.

2023: According to my 2022 blood test results, my blood is quite thick, indicating dehydration. So for this year, I hope to develop the new habit of drinking a glass of water before every meal. Continue my mindful eating and snacking habit.

MENTAL

2022: In 2022, my goal was to be open to new experiences. Well, I did not purposefully seek out new experiences but whenever opportunities for new experiences presented themselves or whenever I had a choice between new and familiar, my selection was biased towards “new”. While most of the “new experiences” were consumerist in nature (e.g. new restaurants/clothing styles), I had some new experiences of meeting and socialising with new groups of people - this was really great for presenting me different life perspectives. It’s interesting how a (meaningfully deep) conversation with a new person can open up your horizon and thinking.

2023: Be open to meeting and socialising with people from all walks of life! Be curious as to their life experiences!

RELATIONSHIPS

2022: As per the past few years, I spent a lot of quality with my partner, parents and siblings and even went on 2 long vacations with them. I’m so incredibly thankful for being blessed with a great family. As for friends, it’s quite sad but I don’t really have many close friends. Still, whenever the chances presented themselves, I met up with them.

2023: Continue spending quality time with partner, parents and siblings. Confront/resolve “have kid or no kid” issues. Maybe get a cat and be a “pawrent”. (To those who offered advice, I will reply in my next few posts!)

FINANCES

2022: Investments suffered along with the broad market downturn. But still managed to increase my overall net worth by 6 figures due to employment income. I’ve reached 7 figures in my overall net worth (excluding home equity) but not for my liquid net worth. My liquid net worth is around 19x annual spend.

2023: Continue on the slow, steady and boring savings and investment path. Be kinder to myself in giving myself more permission to spend in accordance with my priorities for 2023.

JOB

2022: The goal was to work at least until May 2022 to collect my bonus, and that came and passed. The other goal was to be more engaged at work and I think I managed to achieve that. I figured that if I was in my last leg of full time employment (at least at this job), that I should be more engaged instead of adopting a “checked-out” mentality. Although I ending up working harder and more, somehow being intentionally more engaged gave me more fulfilment.

2023: The goal is to work at my current job at least until May 2023 to collect my bonus - hopefully it would be as sizeable as last year. Stay engaged for my last leg of full time employment (at least at this job) and come up with clearer vision on my next employment phase.

MBBboy
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by MBBboy »

Your reasons for potentially having a kid are totally fine. The idea that wanting child for purely selfless, altruistic reasons is an unreasonably high bar and you do NOT have to meet it in order to be a suitable parent.

Edit: Kudos for being willing to write all that out. It's a very difficult subject, and you should be proud of yourself for being willing to face it.

This isn't a subject that can (or should) be decided by people opining on the internet. You will get the absolute spectrum of answers for and against, and I don't think its helpful.

Instead, keep on the path you're already on. Talk / write it out, talk to your husband, talk to your parents, talk to your best friends. And know this - there are so many children in the world in need of loving homes (adoption, fostering, various mentorship programs), even if your biological clock runs out / medical issues / whatever, the door is NOT shut on your ability to be a loving influence in a kids life. Don't get in your own head due to the physical timeline

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

@MBBboy - Thank you for your advice and kind words. I'm currently seeing a therapist to sort out my feelings (3 sessions in) and it has been quite helpful so far. Still have a lot of unsorted feelings since starting my therapy, I've been feeling a lot less pressure to make any decision NOWWWW.

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

REFLECTIONS ON POSSIBLE JOB OPPORTUNITY

The past week involved 2 meet-ups with ex-colleagues and a question that came up is whether I’m looking to progress from my current role. One of them even offered to connect/recommend me to a hiring manager who is looking for someone with my skillset to replace a leaving team member. And… I am ACTUALLY considering applying for the role for a higher pay package and a new corporate/learning experience.

The fact that I’m even seriously entertaining the new opportunity (I even rejigged my resume for this new opportunity but stopped short of applying for it) is gnawing at me because it makes me feel: (1) that my pursuit of ERE/semi-ERE is fraudulent; (2) that I haven’t been successful in reprogramming myself out of the “salaryman” psyche; (3) that I don’t have a clear vision and commitment of how I want my new phase of life to pan out, given that I’m so easily influenced by my peers’ normie goals of scaling the corporate ladder.

I feel the need to thoroughly examine the reasons behind my consideration of new opportunity and whether it makes sense:

Reason #1 - Higher pay

I don’t know how much this new role would pay but I would only seriously consider it if it bumped my annual package by at least 20-25%. A bump like that would mean that I can save an additional year’s expense per year.

I would say I’m about 70-75% to my subjectively-“safe” number to quit full-time work and transition into the fantasy/magical semi-ERE phase. I’m looking at about 2.5 more years in my current role - that feels so long away. It’s horrifying that I’m actually hoping for time and life to quickly pass me so that I can hit that subjectively “safe” number goal which really does not mean much other than subjectively more financial security.

A pay bum of about 20-25% can shorten the last leg of the journey by about… 0.5 to 1 year MAX. I’m not sure if this is significant enough to be worth it…

Reason #2 - New challenges

My current role is generally cushy and pays decent. But it feels stale, colleagues are uninspiring and my mind feels duller by the way. I feel like a playing piece making my umpteenth journey around the Monopoly board just to “pass GO, collect $2000”.

A new role will present a new (though may not be for the better) environment, new colleagues and challenges.

Is my mind so small that I can only find new challenges in a new salaryman/corporate role? Wouldn’t semi-ERE offer an even more interesting and challenging environment and tribe?

Does a new role align with my semi-ERE vision

I don’t have a clear semi-ERE vision in terms of specifics. But what I want to achieve is a life where there is some income-generating work which is not “salaryman” in nature, which is largely indistinguishable from play, and which complements my other goals of being a well rounded person with many useful skills, of having a community I can contribute to and with more time to be able to dedicate to my marriage and my possible future cat/child (if I can resolve the child issue).

My immediate goal is to quickly reach my subjectively-safe number, take a 6m-1year sabbatical to decompress and decondition myself from a decade of salaryman conditioning and then start to build up my new semi-ERE life through exploration and trial and error.

I’m not sure if taking on a new role aligns with my semi-ERE vision other than shortening the time it takes to reach that subjectively-safe number. Also, it doesn’t look good on my resume to take on a new role and to quit after 2 years to take my sabbatical… (but this begs the question of why I should fxxxxxx care about my resume if I don’t intend to go back to the salaryman life).

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

Update on job opportunities

I didn't hear back (not even a ping) from 2 opportunities I applied for and this makes it clear to me that it's much harder to find another job than I'd thought. I think it's a combination of the local market (we are seeing signs of a recession) and also my lack of competitiveness. It is clear to me, when polishing my resume, that I don't have that much to offer. While I wasn't actively trying to find a new job, testing the water has brought a reality check i.e. that I cannot count on the ease of going back to full time employment after leaving the same.

Understanding myself better

I'm late to the game (compared to all you Jungian scholars here) and started reading up on Jungian cognitive functions. I've previously done MBTI tests and have always tested either ISTJ or INTJ - my I, T, and J are extremely strong, but my S/N seems to be hovering around the middle (they are usually only a few percentage points apart). But after delving deeper into the Jungian material, it seems to me that you can't be both as Si is very different from Ni. Anyway, I'm only about ankles-deep in the Jungian world and after some self assessment and reflection, it seems to me that my intrinsic nature is more ISTJ than INTJ. Also, this may be all in my head but I feel that being with my partner (an INFJ - he only tested once and I'm assuming this is accurate), my Ni has developed over the years, as have my partner's Si. Anyway, this is all very new to me and what I'm hoping to achieve is to hopefully understand myself better to find my "RETIRE TO" based on my intrinsic self. I'm quite envious though that INTJs seem to be relatively less trouble in finding their "RETIRE TO" than ISTJs. I wonder what are some early retirement outcomes for ISTJs.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:46 pm
Anyway, this is all very new to me and what I'm hoping to achieve is to hopefully understand myself better to find my "RETIRE TO" based on my intrinsic self. I'm quite envious though that INTJs seem to be relatively less trouble in finding their "RETIRE TO" than ISTJs. I wonder what are some early retirement outcomes for ISTJs.
ISTJs find satisfaction in fulfilling a duty. If leaning towards T, it means enforcing rules and regulations, making sure that the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted. If leaning towards F, it means taking care of something or someone. In both cases, the duty is external. Usually ISTJs will retire from a unsatisfying duty to a satisfying duty. This can take the form of volunteering/free service ... or simply a new job with a better work environment whatever that means.

The ISTJ challenge is essentially to find a new external structure in the existing "9-5 + tourism + old age retirement"-world; somehow fitting into/around that. Renovating houses, guiding tourists, herding cats, ...

INTJs on the other hand generate their own world(s) and internal frameworks. They do not have to go looking for a duty. It is not their thing.

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

@jacob what do you mean by “leaning towards F”? Assuming that my self assessment of myself as an ISTJ is correct, wouldn’t that mean that my lean is surely more T rather than F?
And omg those examples sound quite bland compared to the exciting “retire to” espoused here quite frequently! I think all ISTJs secretly(?) want to be bold and carefree (ie not duty fulfillers) but lack the imagination to do so. I’m not so advanced in Jungian theories yet but do you know if it’s possible to change/evolve one’s natural cognitive preference?

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

@lightfruit55, you mentioned taking up therapy a while ago, does it follow a jungian approach or is it unrelated to your current readings/research?

I cannot say much of psychological/personality types at this stage, but as recently mentioned elsewhere, I wouldn't get too hung up on them and their dichotomies as a tool for introspection.

Especially regarding the four functions of consciousness, this is a summary from Jungian/depth psychologist Bill Plotkin's Wild Mind, but obviously it is further expanded on in Eligio Stephen Gallegos book "Animals of the four windows : integrating thinking, sensing, feeling, and imagery".
Bill Plotkin in Wild Mind wrote:Gallegos understands thinking, feeling, and sensing much the way that Carl Jung did, but where Jung wrote of intuition as the fourth “function of consciousness,” Gallegos offers the insight that the fourth function is actually imagination. Gallegos explains that intuition is our ability to know things “beyond the present moment and circumstance and for which there is no immediate evidence” (ibid., p. 6). Intuition, he notes, can operate by means of any of the four windows, although for any given person it tends to operate primarily through one in particular. In other words, for some people intuitions arrive in the form of an image — say, of a loved one’s face just before that person walks in the door. Other people intuit by way of a thought “out of nowhere” that enables them to understand more deeply something happening at the moment. Some people intuit by way of a feeling or emotion. A fourth group experiences intuition primarily through sensory perception — say, the appearance of a certain bird, breeze, or blossom, which suggests to them that some specific event (such as a birth or a death) has just happened or is about to happen. Jung’s own intuition, as it turns out, operated primarily through his imagination, which led him to identify the fourth function as intuition.

[…]

Feeling, imagining, sensing, and thinking: together, these four modalities make up what psychologist Eligio Stephen Gallegos calls the “four windows of
knowing,” the four human faculties through which we learn about self and world. Each of the four is of equal power and importance in living a balanced
and creative life. Each is a distinct faculty not reducible to any of the other three.
I think this makes a compelling case for replacing intuition (which can occur through any of the four windows) with the actual fourth, imagination.

Much of Jung's work with the unconscious is related to this dimension (dreamwork, active imagination, etc.).

I think it is entirely possible to develop/reclaim our relationship with all windows of knowing, no matter our "natural" preference, and it might be particularly crucial/desirable to do so for [Full-bodied] Feeling and [Deep] Imagination (South and West facets, in Bill Plotkin's map of the psyche), which modern culture has been actively repressing.

"The only war that matters is the war against the imagination. All other wars are subsumed in it. The ultimate famine is the starvation of the imagination" - Diane Di Prima

---

I recently finished a book by Jungian author/psychologist James Hollis called "Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life" and it is quite a gem. "The goal of life is not happiness, but meaning", as he writes. Recommended!
Last edited by OutOfTheBlue on Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jacob
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:29 pm
I think this makes a compelling case for replacing intuition (which can occur through any of the four windows) with the actual fourth, imagination.
Ehh, maybe this comes down to semantics, but I disagree with the choice of the imagination word. Intuition is rooted in some framework in that it subconsciously follows its laws. For example, a mathematician will use intuition based on previous mathematical understanding to "intuit" what the proof of a new theorem might very feel look like and then knowing the goal start computing the intermediate steps from theorem to QED. A better example might be a good chess player that recognizes a good structure out of millions of future positions and only then calculates the moves to get there.

Imagination (as I understand it) is intuition without rules or that structure. Imagination lets people make up whatever they want. Intuition does not.
OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:29 pm
Much of Jung's work with the unconscious is related to this dimension (dreamwork, active imagination, etc.).
Yeah, but Jung works with subconsciously generated problems wherein people have [for whatever reason] formed bad mental constructs that they are not aware of. This is not the case for a well-working brain. Looking at dreams may be the only way to unlock structures that people have subconsciously repressed. However, dreams and Rorshack tests are not exactly what drives a well-constructed mind. As a physicist I have on occasion dreamed in equations and while those equations made sense to me while I was sleeping, they were junk when I woke up. Conversely, I do not intuit/imagine that level of junk imagery in a waking state.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:48 pm
@jacob what do you mean by “leaning towards F”? Assuming that my self assessment of myself as an ISTJ is correct, wouldn’t that mean that my lean is surely more T rather than F?
For those whose F is weak. Not you.
lightfruit55 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:48 pm
And omg those examples sound quite bland compared to the exciting “retire to” espoused here quite frequently! I think all ISTJs secretly(?) want to be bold and carefree (ie not duty fulfillers) but lack the imagination to do so. I’m not so advanced in Jungian theories yet but do you know if it’s possible to change/evolve one’s natural cognitive preference?
Well, DW is an IstJ and FI almost three times over. She still works on employment type jobs but has deliberately only accepted the kind of duty/rules/procedures that get her into flow-mode regardless of pay or career prospects. She just enjoys having some well-defined problems within a well-defined box to solve.

The inferior (4th) function (3 year old in the CAR model) of the ISTJ is Ne, that is, externalized intuition, so yeah, ISTJs do like to dream and imagine things. DW likes scifi and fantasy, for example. However, since the function is generally not very well developed relative to the Si (rules) and Te (implementation), it tends to stay at that level. For INTJs the equivalent is Se, so INTJs who FIRE'd may take to sports and mountain climbing for a while, just like ISTJs who FIRE'd may take that cruise trip to Europe or do the travel they always fantasized about.

More generally, in terms of evolution, it is possible to mature each of the functions. The car-model ascribes an "age" to each of the four functions.

The driver is, lets say, 30 years old.
The codriver is, lets say, 25 years old.
The oldest child is 10.
The youngest is 3.

People can mature these functions insofar they gain experience in using them. Not everybody matures their functions at the same rate. A very well rounded "wise" person may have ages 65, 50, 45, and 25 ... whereas a "man child" may be stuck with 14, 12, 10, and 3. Ages 30, 25, 10, and 3 is typical for the average adult human past the age of 30. Most people just stop developing much after 25---they still "feel the same on the inside as when they were young" even decades later.

In order to change type, one would have to mature the "youngest" functions past the oldest. This is possible but unlikely. The most typical way is to be in an environment that caters to a specific function, for example, the "introverted salesman". Some cultures also promote some functions more than others. Living in a culture that is in/compatible with one's neurochemistry, which typically sets ones initial preferences, can really curb/unlock one's development of various functions.

It seems that FIRE often lets people focus on their previously neglected 3rd and 4th functions. (They were hired in their careers for their first and second functions.)

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:09 am
In order to change type, one would have to mature the "youngest" functions past the oldest. This is possible but unlikely.
As someone who has done it, this sounds to me like an excuse in the same way that all of those people who say ERE is unlikely because of X. It had nothing to do with my functions getting more mature. I just practiced and got better at being sociable. A skill.

Telling people it is unlikely is teaching helplessness.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:13 am
As someone who has done it, this sounds to me like an excuse in the same way that all of those people who say ERE is unlikely because of X. It had nothing to do with my functions getting more mature. I just practiced and got better at being sociable. A skill.
Practicing and getting better is the definition of maturing.

Skill-level or maturation is different than a preference. For example, given my background in mathematics and physics, I'm rather better than the average person at the deductive logical analysis that is how Ti operates, despite Ti being in my 6th position. However, I much prefer Ni-type inductive thinking and so my temperament hasn't changed. Ni remains in the dominant first position. IOW, if you ask me to "prove something" (as INTP types are wont to do) I'll be annoyed given how "it should be intuitively obvious already". I will be able to compute the proof but I'm annoyed because it is not my preference to prove what is obvious to me.

Likewise, I have over time become better at small talk. There's a huge difference between @jacob at 27 and @jacob at 47 in that department. This does not mean I like small talk or seek it out. It's possible to be good at something and yet prefer not to it. It is also possible to prefer something and yet be bad at it although that is usually self-correcting over time.

Likewise, an ISTJ with Ne in the 4th position may over time mature (or practice) their Ne to move from fantasizing about cool rebellious stuff to actually planning it out and doing it as part of their SiTe. However, going from being able to do so and putting Ne into the driver's seat is a whole other ball game because it needs to displace and dominate Si... which requires giving up all the rules and planning that previously defined their thinking and basically prefer to carpe diem whatever looks interesting in the moment.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:51 am
Likewise, I have over time become better at small talk. There's a huge difference between @jacob at 27 and @jacob at 47 in that department. This does not mean I like small talk or seek it out. It's possible to be good at something and yet prefer not to it. It is also possible to prefer something and yet be bad at it although that is usually self-correcting over time.
Being bad at something usually makes people not enjoy doing it.
Getting better usually makes it more enjoyable.
Getting really good often makes it pleasurable.

The progression may not be true for certain outliers but it is true for most. It is not a rare phenomenon.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:22 pm
Being bad at something usually makes people not enjoy doing it.
Getting better usually makes it more enjoyable.
Getting really good often makes it pleasurable.

The progression may not be true for certain outliers but it is true for most. It is not a rare phenomenon.
It seems to me that we're still not on the same page wrt relative preference vs absolute skill. They are both relevant.

By simple analogy, lets consider a good runner who wants to get into duathlons but dislikes cycling and also isn't very good at it. With cycling practice, the runner will become better at cycling and may also come to enjoy cycling. However, insofar the duathlete still favors running over cycling, he remains a runner by temperament. This is also evident in that his legs are the thin sinewy legs of a distance runner and not the oak tree thighs of a hardcore cyclist.

While the runner has learned how to cycle, he is not a cyclist.

Insofar that cycling training gets preferred over running practice, the legs will grow. He is now a cyclist. This is a huge transition though. The reason is that not only has he learned a new skill. He has also changed his preference of skill use so that when it trains it now mostly happens on a bike instead of happening on a treadmill. This in turn changes his body composition to reflect this new preference. This is something that takes time.

He is now no longer a runner.

More importantly, these skills do not exist in isolation. The relative preferences of the different skill (here two) determines his entire body composition as an athlete. Huge legs generally means extra weight which means slower times on the run. Sinewy runners legs means less power means slower times on the bike. There is no BOTH-AND here. Someone doing BOTH running AND cycling will not be the best they could be at either by construction although they will be better than an untrained (immature) person at either.

It is the same with mental functions. They (all 8) exist in support of each other. Preferring one means dispreferring its opposite number. The relative preference of mental functions determine how the brain is wired. Just like changing body composition takes a lot of time and effort, so does changing mental composition as neurons rewire. Skills are not plug-in. They are part of an integrated whole, where great strengths also become great weaknesses; alternatively a balanced approach becoming unable to excel in running or in cycling but only in duathlon.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:02 pm
It is the same with mental functions. They (all 8) exist in support of each other. Preferring one means dispreferring its opposite number. The relative preference of mental functions determine how the brain is wired. Just like changing body composition takes a lot of time and effort, so does changing mental composition as neurons rewire. Skills are not plug-in. They are part of an integrated whole, where great strengths also become great weaknesses; alternatively a balanced approach becoming unable to excel in running or in cycling but only in duathlon.
Yes, this is the heart of our disagreement. You can learn to be good at following instructions without losing the ability to wing it and improvise. You can learn to enjoy reading fiction without losing an appreciation for non-fiction, textbooks or discovering a loophole when filling out tax forms by hand using the instruction book. It is possible to enjoy long periods of quiet contemplation AND to enjoy being the outgoing center of attention. It is possible to learn to be good at both.

Having the ability to be/do whichever is best in a given situation would be optimal, right?

Wiring neurons for one does not necessarily entail unwiring for the other.

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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:38 pm
Yes, this is the heart of our disagreement. Learning Spanish does not make me unlearn English or math.

[...]

Wiring neurons for one does not necessarily entail unwiring for the other.
Use it or lose it though. If wires don't keep firing together, they eventually stop wiring together. The brain is plastic.

If you started speaking/thinking/listening to Spanish 99% of the time, your English would suffer and vice versa. I don't know what the exact percentage is, but I speak Danish for about 2 hours per month and my ability to communicate eloquently and fluently in Danish is certainly not what it used to be. Learning English did not hurt my Danish as long as I was still speaking and thinking in Danish. Preferring to speak and ponder in English almost 100% of the time eventually did though but in turn it made me a much better English speaker than the Danes who see and use English as a second language. I now find myself searching for Danish words. I often catch myself using English grammar when speaking Danish. Basically, I'm an example of someone who has transitioned from a Danish-speaker who knows English to an English-speaker who knows Danish.

Ditto with different ways of expressing math, e.g. analytical methods vs numerical methods. My highschool self was certainly much better at mental partial integration than I am today because HS-self practiced it regularly, whereas present-self never does or alternatively prefers to solve integration problems numerically.

The problem with preference appears when there are two competing methods to solve the same problem. Should I use English or Danish? Using English means getting more proficient with English. But using English means NOT using Danish. And not using Danish means slowly getting less proficient with Danish due to neglect and lack of practice. In other words using English is slowly causing me to "unlearn" (forget) Danish.

Likewise habitually considering how I really feel about a given situation improves my ability to know and express my feelings for the next situation. By choosing to focus on my feelings, not considering the logical implications of a given situation neglects my ability to reason and thus my reasoning gets weaker and weaker. Do both? Yeah, in principle, but for the same effort you get twice the breadth but only half the depth on each. Doing both is also a preference, but someone who does both is generally weaker at both reasoning or emoting compared to someone who favors one over the other.

Likewise, planning everything out all the time makes for a very efficient planner. But someone who is in the habit of efficient planning is also poor at spontaneous decisions. And vice versa.

Likewise, someone who is keen on looking for patterns in the environment (Ne) is practiced in directing their attention outwards. Since they only have one "attention" to direct, this means they're less likely to direct it inwards (Ni). Indeed, someone who is practiced in focusing on details (S) is unlikely to focus on patterns (N) and vice versa. It doesn't mean they can't. They're just not subconsciously competent about it. As such, going from Si to Ne is a pretty big developmental ask.

I do believe it's possible to self-author a new temperament. For example, by being deliberate in using the weaker functions like focusing on feelings instead of reasoning or looking for patterns in the environment as opposed to recalling previous details of a similar situation. However, I also think such a transition is a momentous undertaking because it will eventually result in becoming a different person. Especially initially it's very tempting to revert to one's familiar and stronger functions; the equivalent of "I don't know how to phrase this in English, so I'm going to switch to Danish".

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Ego
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:48 pm
Doing both is also a preference, but someone who does both is generally weaker at both reasoning or emoting compared to someone who favors one over the other.
I agree. The Competent Man loses something by deciding not to specialize.

My opinion:

1. He has the ability to decide to do both. He is not fixed.
2. He gains so much more than he loses by not specializing.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

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