Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

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VinceG
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Post by VinceG »

Commoditization of the PC market has all but eliminated true quality from market offerings. You can't buy a computer like you can your clothing, or camping equipment, particularly a gaming machine. Your best bet is to buy cheap, and hope it lasts longer than five years. The great thing is, you can buy a machine that games for very cheap on Craigslist. I'm typing this out on an old Thinkpad I got for $133 on Craigslist. (not a gaming machine) I'd actually bought three of them, and sold one for almost as much as I paid for all three. If you're paranoid, bring a copy of a game you want to play, and install and run it on the machine you're buying it on before you shell out the dough.
Maintenance is a lot more crucial to keeping a machine that lasts. For a machine whose primary purpose is gaming, do a full machine wipe-re-install every three months, do it every time you change your car's oil. If you don't, your machine will sneakily lose performance until you'll think it's given up the ghost; really it's just cluttered; this cycle kept my father in a $1200 a year laptop habit for years. For laptops, the battery will eventually need replacement, that's $70; (optional) power cords also like to break as well. (non-optional)
If you can do that and not damage the hardware, a laptop can last you for as long as you care to keep it, eventually the state of the gaming art will outpace it. But then you'll be able to find another $500 job on Craigslist.


VinceG
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Post by VinceG »

For Desktops, it's much easier. Invest some bucks in a book on building computers, it will serve you well. It's very easy, and while it won't save you a whole lot of money, it will keep you from having to buy a new computer if your computer's power supply or hard drive fails. I'd say still go Craigslist, but this time you don't have to find the perfect machine. Just get something with a decent motherboard, as if you change motherboard models, you'll have to also change big chunks of the system with it. RAM, processors, sometimes even hard drives. All other parts in it can be swapped without affecting the other parts. But if you get a computer with only an AGP video slot, you wasted your money.
This way you can spread out your computer expenditures. Upgrade the CPU this month and the RAM next month and the video card the month after. Parts are super cheap when bought three years after release and they still work fine. You can even buy new versions of models released a few years ago, get a cheap part, and enjoy a warranty.
Find a good local computer store and build a relationship with them. They'll sell you the same stuff you'll get online, but you won't have to worry about buying a bum part, they'll take it back even if you foolishly bought the wrong part.


starshard0
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Post by starshard0 »

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I'm currently dealing with some issues attempting to purchase a custom system, so I'm thinking of just canceling the order and building one myself. Does anyone have any advice for where to buy parts besides Newegg or Tiger Direct? Also what's a good book on building computers?


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

Newegg really is top notch. Tigerdirect, average.
I think you're better off searching the internet, rather than buying a book. 1) PC books quickly expire. 2) better info is all over the net.
Checkout the Lifehacker posts on building. There will be even better advice down in the comments. Best of luck.


Robert Muir
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Post by Robert Muir »

I use Newegg for parts. Their return policy, (which you may need), is good.
At the risk of repeating previous advice, you're going to significantly overpay for your computer if you build it yourself. Kind of like building a car from purchased parts. Nothing wrong with that, just be prepared.
Because my job requires the knowledge, I've built each of my systems from scratch since 1998. It's mostly straightforward. The only really tricky part nowadays is installing the actual CPU onto the motherboard. You can easily crack it or install it improperly, causing it to overheat. Cracked or burned up CPUs are non-refundable.


B
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Post by B »

Robert Muir said:
you're going to significantly overpay for your computer if you build it yourself. Kind of like building a car from purchased parts. Nothing wrong with that, just be prepared.
Then you go on to echo the advice to build a machine from scratch? Does that mean use salvaged parts vs purchased parts? I don't understand what you're getting at.


Robert Muir
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Post by Robert Muir »

No, I wasn't advising him to build a PC from scratch. I was saying that if he did, the CPU installation was the most challenging aspect of it.
I had business related reasons for building my workstations and for anyone else who wanted to be a PC technician, I would advise the same thing. You can learn a LOT by purchasing the separate components and building your own computer.
But my wife's computer is a Dell that I bought new for about $300 on sale and for those who just want a PC that works and gets the best bang for the buck, I would advise them to buy a PC that was already built.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

Buying a Dell is probably the cheapest, and definitely the easiest... But you get what you pay for. Most of the parts are substandard.
I just put together a smaller i5 640, 4GB, bluray for about $255... The loud stock Intel fan is bothering me so $275. Every part in it has a warranty of at least 1 year (Dell = 90 days).


VinceG
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Post by VinceG »

The point of building a computer yourself is not to save a lot of money, there's not much to save.
The point is that when a part breaks, you'll have your own skills to rely on to fix the thing.
I had to charge an old lady $60 to fix her computer, with a part that cost me $12. The heat sink fan clip broke, causing the computer to over-heat. Over the years different things will break, and if you can fix them, you can keep a computer around for years.
I advise getting a book to start out with. It's a handy reference, and by the time it's out of date, you won't need a new one. I had an A+ certification book, even though I never got the certification. That was ten years ago, and while I don't have it anymore, I never needed to replace it. I just picked it off the shelf of a bookstore one day.


starshard0
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Post by starshard0 »

@VinceG, I don't really have a problem fixing little things like that. I'm comfortable with swapping out parts and installing things, and fixing what I can. If building my own computer won't save me much money, then I don't really see the benefit.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

Building saves money in a variety of ways:

1.) Individual parts carry warranties years longer than a pre-fab. OEMs are willing to warranty these parts because they have confidence in them.

2.) Many Dell parts are significantly lower quality and will fail more often. Hence 90 day warranty, unless you buy more.

2.) You can take advantage of rebate offers on individual parts.

3.) Dell will pack as many old parts into a computer as they can get away with. At work I have a Dell purchased in 2010 that they stuffed near obsolete IDE hard drives in... Many motherboards have dropped IDE altogether. Makes recycling hardware difficult.

4.) A Dell will never have much power to spare; PSUs are spec'd for that computer and if you want to upgrade you often are buying a new PSU as well. Extra power plugs? Maybe 2.

5.) Dell often has model specific BS and roadblocks to repair and upgrade... It really negates the advantage of a tower when you have to buy model specific anything.

6.) Built computers are easily repairable from standard parts. This is a marketable skill as well.

7.) Self built computers are capable of upgrading. Dell cases are generally so crappy you risk breaking them to just get inside. My work XPS Dell, which should have been top of the line, had a crappy plastic case that broke the second time I went in to clean.

8.) Dells generally have poor cord management and cooling, which contributes to dust buildup, higher temps and much lower hardware lifespans.
Not to mention the software... Every new Dell requires an hour of uninstalling all the terrible bloat that Dell has licensing agreements with! Selling new computers that crawl right out of the box, makes me chuckle.
I could go on... IMO Dells are to computers as Mr Beer is to home brewing.


VinceG
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Post by VinceG »

Starshard: Can you replace a faulty motherboard? Motherboards can be as cheap as $40. Can you look at all your parts and buy the right motherboard for all of them? They can be quite tricky to swap out. If you feel comfortable swapping one out, as well as the obligatory OS re-install, then I'd say you're good.


jacob
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by jacob »

Any recommendations for a "build your own computer" book (preferred) or website?

Fish
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by Fish »

@jacob: pcpartpicker.com for compatibility checking, youtube tutorials as needed for assembly instructions.

Edit: If your requirements are not strict, "gaming PC" specs will perform well for vast majority of users. Going this route is generally best performance-to-cost ratio and good longevity. As with anything, there are budget and $$$$ options. Special considerations if space is a constraint (small form factor), if you need a lot of storage (e.g. media server), or if you require extremely high performance. Model numbers of CPUs and GPUs can be a bit overwhelming at first, but there's actually not that much variety once you figure out that it's like any other consumer goods market with economy, standard, and luxury options.

If you don't feel like doing your own research, you can ask on the internet and get generally good advice from enthusiasts after explaining your requirements. That will be much faster than moving up the CCCCCC ladder. But reading websites, watching videos, coming up with build ideas, is a part of the "PC building experience" that many find enjoyable.

The buildapcsales subreddit is one example of a site that provides crowdsourced info on parts availability and sales. Within a few days you will acquire a sense of what is a good/great price for each component.

Higher Wheaton level ideas: You can also source components from craigslist/ebay, but it is a reasonably efficient marketplace and it may not be worth your time for high-demand components. Also consider that you can buy used (or even new!) computers for parts. Building a PC out of discards is absolutely possible, but will be lower performance and older parts may cause obsolence issues. One idea for good value is to stick a new SSD into a retired corporate workstation. However, if USB data transfer speeds are important to you, that may be a reason to pursue a new[er] computer.

jacob
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by jacob »

Thanks. PCPP seems to be the most useful site I've looked at so far. Incidentally, I'm fixing on building a gaming computer for flight sims. (Yes, for the third time in forum history w/o pulling the trigger, I know ... )

I've noticed two things. Builds are almost always split into two families: Either AMD or Intel. This is also how it was 30 years ago although it seems to have taken up more significance these days.

I also noticed that motherboards seem further split into subfamilies with the graphics cards, e.g. a Gigabyte MB demands a graphics card from e.g. NVidia to be of the gigabyte phenotype. This seems to be a newer thing. I take it there's a battle of standards going on wrt graphics cards.

FWIW, last time I was interested in this stuff was in the early 1990s. It was a [comparably] simpler time back then.

zbigi
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by zbigi »

Re: compatibility, one way to approach this would be to find a build made by an independent manufacturer, and just copy all of their parts (or just buy the rig from them if their price is good). For example, something like this: https://www.quietpc.com/sys-value-gamer-10

Also, buying a gaming PC right now is super not ERE? The graphics cards should (hopefully) finally get to their MSRPs "soon", so it's best to wait a bit longer...

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Jean
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by Jean »

@jacob
Building a PC isn't difficult at all. There aren't that many compatibility issues. I wouldn't split builds in two categories like this.

The trick is to build it backward, like a rocket, but instead of a payload, you have a desired visual output.

First, you need to define what you wan't to do (you said flight sim), and how nice you wan't it to be.
Then you buy a screen. Most people can't see difference between 1080p resolution an 4k in a 23ish inch monitor at 2feet distance, but most people will notice a lower refresh rate.
So i suggest you buy a 1080p 144hz screen, but you can research.
Then choose a graphic card (GPU) that can render your game at the desired resolution and a decent refresh rate.
This is currently (april 2022) very difficult, because there are shortage somewhere, and price are extremly high (I could now sell my pc built in november 2019 for more money than i paid it).
Look what is available, and then look for performance review. You can also compare benchmark there.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/N ... 4105vs4117

The two cards in the link are where i think the sweet spot is today (they a great for 1080p and at a reasonable price in switzerland), but make your own opinion according to your want and availability.

Then choose a CPU. It's very easy to buy a much more expensive CPU than you need.

I think a ryzen 5 5600G would be a good choice because it would be able to feed the two GPU i left on the other page, AND, if there are no cheap graphic card at the moment, there is a decent integrated graphic, so you can use it until you get your desired graphic card (but forget about playing flight simulator on it). It also comes whit a ventilator. Intel CPU don't so if you don't want to build something special, that requires a special ventilator, that's still some money saved. Are more high end CPU is useless if you're only going to do gaming or office work. (if you will run extensive brute force simulation, or do video rendering, then it can be usefull)

Then choose your RAM. AMD CPU greatly benefit from fast ram, so 3000 or 3200 mhz would be nice. 16 gb are fine, but you can buy 32 if you find a cheap kit.

Then choose A storage. I'de get a 1 or 2 TB nvme ssd, and then, if you run out of storage space, buy a HDD.
If you don't mind long loading time, buy only a HDD.

Then choose a motherboard. It must be compatible with every thing you choosed before. I think PCPP works well for checking this.
Unless you plan on doing overclocking, you don't get any benefits from an expensive motherboard. you can find something for less than a 100.-. spending over 150.- is probably a waste of money, unless you exactly know why you need the options) Asrock have good review. Gigabyte less, but i have no problem with my gigabyte MB.

Then buy a power supply (PSU): add the power consuption of you gpu and cpu, double it, then buy a PSU with this or a bit less. look that it's 80plus gold certified

and finaly choose a case big enough to fit everything in.

Also for fligth sim, you'll need a hotas (joystick and throttle controle). I cheaped out on mine (around 120.-), i regret it. I don't play my space sim as much as before, but i would have enyojed it more with a better hotas.

hope this was helpfull, but remember, start with the payload.

Fish
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by Fish »

@jacob: More recent considerations include power draw and heat dissipation, especially when a GPU is involved. While the power supply and case from an old PC (say 5+ years) are still technically usable, you may run into issues with insufficient wattage or airflow if building a high-performance computer. Now that optical drives are obsolete, it is common for the entire front of the case to be used as air intake. It is possible to obsess over details like cooling, noise, lighting and cable management.

Supply chain issues have made availability of parts a thing. You may need to substitute different components or wait, if your preferred options are out of stock. There is also a trend towards LED lighting the internals of a computer like the Las Vegas Strip at night. Prevalence of this "RGB" is at a point where you will end up with a mismatched aesthetic unless you make a deliberate effort to optimize for it, or to avoid it completely.

Did you overclock in the past? Doing that now requires a more expensive "unlocked" CPU. It's price discrimination for computer enthusiasts. The choice of AMD vs Intel limits the motherboard selection. The CPU sockets are revised on a regular basis which limits the upgrade paths if you do not also replace the mobo. Also note that graphics cards do not need to be brand-matched to motherboards, as the connectors are all standard.
zbigi wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:38 am
The graphics cards should (hopefully) finally get to their MSRPs "soon", so it's best to wait a bit longer...
Many gamers have been delaying graphics card upgrades, waiting for prices of the latest generation to come down. When this happens, it should also cause the prices for used GPUs to drop.
Jean wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:43 am
and finaly choose a case big enough to fit everything in.
Ease of installation is directly proportional to case size. Within a form factor, there is variation in case dimensions between manufacturers with some having more internal volume. Customer ratings will help you find the best-designed cases. It is usually possible to install a motherboard in a larger case than it was designed for. For example, if you end up with a mATX motherboard, you may still want to build in an ATX case for more room.

zbigi
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by zbigi »

Fish wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:20 am
Many gamers have been delaying graphics card upgrades, waiting for prices of the latest generation to come down. When this happens, it should also cause the prices for used GPUs to drop.
Isn't buying a used GPU a big gamble nowadays? You never know if it wasn't used to mine crypto 24/7 and hence is on its last legs.

Fish
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Re: Buying a New Computer + A Sad Story

Post by Fish »

@zbigi: Thanks for pointing that out. That's a valid concern, and it is recommended to buy new for that reason. Purchasers of used GPUs should seek a deep discount to compensate for the risk.

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