akratic's ERE journal

[pemulis]

Akratic maybe you could read some Philosophy books or something along those lines? I think you will figure something out if you give it enough thought. I do hope you enjoy yourself some though, I definitely have enjoyed reading your story.

Anyway, if you are bored do you want to work on a project with me? I made a post about it here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5413

I don't know what technology stack you typically use or whatever but PM me if you feel like it!

[akratic]

We’re house sitting in Istanbul now. We’re here two more weeks, and then we have a one month house sit in Brussels. Here’s the view from our (free!) temporary home in Istanbul:



(Europe on this side of the water, Asia on the other side.)

I wonder if we’ll suffer lifestyle inflation from staying in these fancy places.

There’s been lots of competition for these house sits, but fortunately my girlfriend is extremely quick to contact new listings and reply to their emails, which I think puts us at the top of peoples' lists.

===

Thanks for all the replies above to my last post, and sorry I’m not going to be able to do each of them justice, but here’s an attempt.

@Tyler9000, yeah, I need to channel my drive into something constructive. I’m just struggling to find the right new thing. I think at least part of the problem is being tethered to my girlfriend’s wanderlust; many potential projects are incompatible with waking up in a new city every few weeks. Even without that constraint though, I’m not *that* excited about any of the projects I’ve tried to come up with. Like I know I’m onto something big when it’s dominating my reading list, my thoughts in the middle of the night, my conversations, etc…. and right now nothing is, try as I might to find something. (Maybe I've found the mythical "balance" thing that others talk about and pursue, but I certainly wasn't looking for it...)

@LonerMatt, I haven’t checked out the Ancient Wisdom Project yet, but yeah, a mission or overarching purpose is exactly what I do best with.

@Ego, I do love objective measures of progress like money or body fat or grades or scores in a video game! The dualist aspect of the significant other wasn’t the relevant part there (rather just the extreme benefit of finding the right partner). I don’t think I’m looking for permission to enjoy small projects. I have a bad track record at selecting small projects honestly. “I’m going to watch all five seasons of this TV show!” or “I’m going to read all the books in this series!" or “I’m going to play this new video game until I’m in the top 10% of all people who play!” etc.

I’m not sure I fully follow your comment on keeping up with the Joneses in an alternative universe. I don’t think I’ve been after merit-badges so much as things that are truly important (the right life partner, FI, self-understandng, etc). For me I think the main problem with keeping up with the Joneses is that the Joneses are so dumb and so unhappy. If the hypothetical Joneses in our alternative universe were living fulfilled, purposeful, happy and meaningful lives… well then I’d be happy to try to keep up with them.

@mxlr650, haha, I watched that whole show and enjoyed it. Being a good husband to me seems to be just an extension of being a good boyfriend… whereas being a good father is more mysterious to me.

Regarding stockpiling more money to achieve FI at a family level, I think the main thing stopping me is that it just kinda smells of premature optimization to me. Maybe I’m infertile; maybe we fall in love with an inexpensive city like Cuenca, Ecuador and decide to raise our family there; maybe my girlfriend dumps me and I never find another partner; maybe our 5-figure online business becomes a 6 or 7 figure one; maybe when there’s screaming toddlers in the house I actually would prefer to leave the house every day to a 9-5. It just seems wrong to waste life-energy because I *might* need more money in the future — better to wait until I actually do, or at least the need is more certain.

@jennypenny, haha your questions are spot on. I guess I was kind of implicitly expecting that each project would build on the previous ones and be increasingly more meaningful, but yeah, it’s quite ridiculous to think that a project in my 60s would be several times more meaningful than FI or finding a life partner. Hmmmm. I guess I need to recalibrate the criteria that I judge projects by? I basically see two directions:
1) be happy with increasingly small benefits to my own life. (If I’m going to continue to work on my own life, I’m going to have to be content with smaller benefits, since I might’ve already done the things with the biggest impact!)
2) start to judge things by their impact not on myself but on others. To be honest, I basically expected myself to make this transition already; once I had things squared away for myself I thought it would happen naturally. I’m not sure I can force it though — that is, I’m not sure I can pursue it inauthentically. This is kind of hard to explain, but I think my introversion and independence and drive might be handicaps in understanding the best way to help others.

@pemulis, well I have an entire undergrad degree in Philosophy, so I’m not confident there’s a lot more low hanging fruit out there for me to find in Philosophy books. Regarding taking on new engineering projects, I’m pretty reluctant at the moment. I hate to commit to something unless I’m certain I can follow through, but at the moment I’m just not motivated to do so.

[frihet]

What about ultimate freedom? Enlightenment? What ever you wanna call it.

Is there a bigger project? Potentially for many lifetimes.

Now you have external freedom so why not pursue the internal kind?

Half jokingly Half seriously I know this is not for everyone.

[fips]

Nice view from Istanbul. Haven't been there yet, it's supposed to be a very vibrant city - and of course its location makes it an interesting place in any case.

Have you found that one on http://www.trustedhousesitters.com/ as well? I need to look into that, it's awesome. Plus, I never like to do the typical tourist tours anyway. I rather like to get involved in the city/culture and meet people. If you are to do chores and live in a "real local appartment" (and get to know the owners as locals), that's something I'd look forward to.

[akratic]

@frihet, I could see pursuing enlightenment at some point in my life, but at the moment it's not a strong draw

@frips, yeah, both house sits from trustedhousesitters.com

Our month house sitting in Brussels is almost up. Brussels is expensive so we've been cooking a lot, etc. We took a trip to Amsterdam, which I liked.

Soon we head to Montpellier France where we one of my friends lives. We've been unable to secure a housesit for after that, so we'll probably just rent a place for a month or two somewhere. Candidate places include France, Spain, Portugal, and eastern Europe.

I had a good idea for an extra mostly passive income stream this month, but it was time sensitive to launch and required access to a workhouse gaming computer. I spent a lot of time trying to execute the idea using remote connection options, which ultimately didn't work and caused me to miss the opportunity. I'll probably have another shot at an idea like this in the future, but it was a shame how much more difficult traveling made it this time around.

We're starting to look more seriously at where we might settle down after traveling. My preferred city is Boston, and in particular I would prefer to live so centrally that walking is the primary mode of transportation, with biking and public transit secondary, and driving rarely. At the same time, where we settle down is where we intend to raise kids, and I'd like my theoretical kids to have access to a well above average public school like I did. This rare combination of urban lifestyle and top tier public schools actually does exist in the Boston area, but there's a catch: it's incredibly expensive.

Thus I find myself faced with a new type of money problem: a seemingly insurmountable one. None of the tools in my FI bag of tricks seems to be able to tackle this one. Here's a list of my tools and why they don't seem to work in this case:
1) usually what I want is naturally inexpensive (such as time alone with a book or computer, or time with friends in conversation or playing games) but in this case what I want is to live in one of the most expensive zip codes in one of the most expensive countries.
2) usually when I want something that's normally expensive, I've been able to find a cheap way to get it (such as traveling via couchsurfing / housesitting / inexpensive cities) but in this case there simply doesn't seem to be a cheap way to do it -- I've been watching the market and it's not like there are foreclosure type deals in a zip code like this.
3) usually when I want something expensive that I don't know how to make inexpensive (such as a one week ski vacation) I've been happy to simply do without it, but in this case I think I'm unwilling to compromise. It's one thing to give up the ski vacation for the freedom to fart around all day, but the idea of farting around all day while sending my kids to an inferior school just doesn't sit right with me. I truly believe that if I'd been raised in a weaker public school that I wouldn't have gotten into MIT, and that wthout MIT I wouldn't have had nearly the same opportunities, and thus giving my kids the same opportunity is essentially imperative, no compromise, no home school, no do without or work around. You might think an alternative would be a top school district in the middle of nowhere or in an another country, etc., but that compromise in my own lifestyle is one that I'm unwilling to make.
4) usually when there's something expensive that I can't give up (such as the $500 DDR pads I bought) I've been able to suck it up and simply acquire the extra money in a reasonable amount of time, but in this case the amount of money needed is simply mind boggling. The total cost of ownership for even the bare minimum family sized place in this location is around $800k, factoring in purchase price, property taxes, maintenance, fees, etc. There's simply no way that I can see to be a financial independent hundred thousandaire father of two in this zip code. I've watched the real estate transactions for months and there simply aren't cheap fixer uppers that fly under the radar.

Essentially I have two choices:
a) give up something I genuinely do want
b) put back on the money making hat and push my net worth over $1 million

b) wouldn't be the end of the world. Even with the gaps on my resume I can probably still save $100k/yr with a concerted effort, but regardless pushing my net worth comfortably over $1m would take years. It's funny, as hard as I fought to avoid the American Dream and the typical insatiable appetite for money, I seem to be getting sucked back into a fairly typical course in life. All of this is still a few years out, and who knows what could change in the meantime, but at the moment it feels kind of inevitable.

[C40]

It sounds like you're having a hard time figuring out how to live in the area you want because you've made an assumption or decision too early - that Boston is the place you should live. I'm sure there are other cities/areas that meet your criteria of being central/walkable and having top tier schools. Is there something else about Boston that over-rides the possibility of other cities?

If the two main criteria are walkability and schools, then you might want to just take a step back in your efforts to 'solve' this, and looks for other cities/areas that meet your desires.

(If it really has to be in Boston, maybe there are other neighborhoods that would still work? Maybe there are some "up and coming" areas? Places that are or that you think will be revitalized in the future?)

[Chris]

I'd like my theoretical kids to have access to a well above average public school like I did.

Why public schools? It's possible that a private school option plus the cost of living in another urban area might be cheaper.

[ether]

I understand why you feel like you need to move to Boston to raise a family. You want to give your children all the opportunities that your parents gave you. Some things you should consider:
1. Having great teachers early in life really boost the chances of getting an elite college education, but there is always a possibility that your children won't become successful and competitive students. So many factors outside of your control determine if a person becomes a successful student [intrinsic motivation, personal values developed in adolescence, feelings towards teachers/school, friends, personal interest]
2. You built so much wealth that maybe you and your decedents will no longer have to worry about being forced to work to cover basic needs. You have freed your self and your decedents to be able to develop individual passions and to pursue what makes them happy instead of what pays the bills.
3. What if getting an elite education isn't what makes your children happy?

[JasonR]

o

[George the original one]

I'd like my theoretical kids to have access to a well above average public school like I did.

Why public schools? It's possible that a private school option plus the cost of living in another urban area might be cheaper.

That was my thought, too.

[jacob]

@akratic - Keep in mind that material parts of Boston's waterfront are going to be under water(literally) a couple of generations down the line. Pick the high ground (literally).

As for education, then, as far as I understand, there are two reasons people go/send their kids to expensive institutions(*).

(*) I don't know if it's proper to lump MIT in with the Ivy's and their likes or whether MIT is a special case.

1) Those who lack the talents but have rich parents get to join the network of the upper class and serve in some "executive"-role with others wondering: "what actual work does that guy do again?" E.g. George W Bush.
2) Those who have the talents but don't have rich parents get to do actual work and service the tedious infrastructure of the upper class in return for higher than average salaries making them in turn, upper-middle class. E.g. Barack Obama.

I think the opportunities [you seek] mainly exist in the narrow band of getting high-income jobs or positions. It's not a broadening of opportunities. It's a narrowing of opportunities to increase the likelihood of the "highly paid position" outcome. To decrease the likelihood of failing to get the "highly paid position". Watch the risks of eliminating the opportunity to fail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHGqp8lz36c

Basically, I think you're making the "for the children"-argument. E.g. all this out-of-the-box thinking might be good for me, but I want my children to experience and adopt the conventional consumer-career model.

To compare, consider the opportunities (world-view, competence, confidence) that your children could have if they grew up having lived in 5 different continents, on a boat for 5 years, had hobbies that paid them instead of being paid for like standard organized activities, were involved in actual non-placating science/STEM as a young apprentice rather than doing "science projects". Those are other opportunities which are eliminated by the standard approach.

In any case, yeah, you're planning way to far ahead.

[Spartan_Warrior]

x2 Jacob, particularly the planning too far ahead. I bought a house in a good school district with room for my "theoretical kids", too. I wouldn't recommend it. Even once you have kids, it will be five years before they're in school. That's plenty of time to move.

[Tyler9000]

In any case, yeah, you're planning way to far ahead.

Yep.

Perfect is the enemy of good. Especially when "perfect" is an ideal attempting to project your own unique past and personality on others that don't even exist yet and extrapolated far into the future.

Be yourself. You've done great so far precisely by stepping back and challenging the standard advice for living. You have far more choices than you're allowing yourself to recognize, and there's more than one single path to a great future for your children. I'm sure several of those paths are great for you as well.

[akratic]

@C40: the Boston decision didn't come lightly. I grew up there, my family is there, and across the past seven years of living in other cities and traveling, I've always compared each place to Boston (and found them better in some ways but not on the whole).

A second tier neighborhood could work, but is still going to be quite expensive, and also I tend not to be good at compromising on things that I think are important.

@Chris / George: regarding private school vs a good public school, I have no theoretical argument, just a hundred little experiences in my life where the kids from private schools seemed worse off than the ones from public schools. If I'd met a different set of kids my bias could be different.

@ether: yeah, I think it'd be fine for my child to choose a different path in life... I just want to leave the door open for him, and for it to be his choice not to go through it. That said, I don't think being a hundred thousandaire is exactly intergenerational levels of wealth; a non-frugal person would blow through my stash quickly.

@JasonR: well the part about overplanning is true, but the part about forcing constraints on the kid I don't agree with. The hypothetical kid could easily go from a good education into the wild -- in fact that seems preferable to going into the woods with a shaky foundation.

@jacob (/@Spartan/@Tyler): okay the sea levels look good for the new few hundred years in the specific location I want. Regarding overplanning: guilty as charged, simple as that. Anyway, I liked the JK Rowling video. In terms of narrowing options to "upper-middle-class" and "all this out-of-the-box thinking might be good for me, but I want my children to experience and adopt the conventional consumer-career model."...

I need to think about this more. In fact, I think that is close to what I'm thinking. The conventional consumer-career model works well for lots of people, for my brother, for my sister, for my parents, for my girlfriend's siblings and parents, etc. I wouldn't say that I *want* my child to adopt it, but it does seem likely to me that he'd choose it rather than choose to be a weirdo like me. Like I'd want my child to be free to choose either a path like mine or a more normal path or a completely different one... and while I might hope he chooses my path, I wouldn't expect it... if anything the consumer-career path seems like it'd be the most statistically likely choice.

[henrik]

the part about forcing constraints on the kid I don't agree with. The hypothetical kid could easily go from a good education into the wild

Consider that going to a "good school" is a constraint in that it will come with a set of expectations, a culture etc that will get ingrained. To put it very simply, the kid might not want to or even think to go into the wild after being "well educated". Now that might be a good thing or a bad thing or who knows, but it will still be a constraint resulting from your expectations and your decisions. The alternative scenario described by Jacob above would do a lot more to keep options open. The range of options, and the potential for ideas for options, would simply be a lot bigger. (This is based on my belief that we are not "born" to do one thing or another or for a specific lifestyle and that chance and circumstances determine most of it.)

[Ego]

Apply the ERE methodology to it. AKA, where there is a will there is a way.

I know Mexican families who live in Tijuana and have their kids attending some of the best schools in the San Diego area. Legally*. They just plan ahead.

http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-scho ... s?page=all


*more or less.

[jacob]

Consider that going to a "good school" is a constraint in that it will come with a set of expectations, a culture etc that will get ingrained.

Culture is the keyword here. Education [in the sense of learning] has very little to do with it. Rather the purpose is to get attached to a specific culture: a specific way of talking, interacting, behaving, ... thus ensuring "a good fit". As Good Will says, the education can be had at the cost of a library card and 50 cents in late fees.

More interestingly, with the way that student loans and the whole college degree thing is going... are colleges still the place for this kind of connection 20-25 years from now? Will the ROI remain high? Clearly the ROI of a college education is already negative at the bottom---the kind of degrees that are advertised on public transit. How soon before it hits the middle---the kind that's advertised during football games---or the top---the kind that doesn't need advertising?

Personally, I cringe every time I hear the "s/he went to a good school". Then again, I don't represent money ;-P

Even more interestingly, the tendency to establish pedigree via a college education is nowhere stronger than in the US. From a Euro-perspective(*) it's not like we're not buying into it. However, those with some exposure to the students of "elite" US universities tend to be disappointed that they're not the supermen that legend has. Rather, they have the exact same distribution of geniuses and bores as everybody else. This is due to the specific problem in that universities mostly selects for rather than teach intelligence and creativity. Hence, "if you're smart enough to get in, you probably don't need to go". Which gets me to my ultimate point [which has been made already by JasonR]... what's the likelihood of the kids being smart enough to get in by their talents alone? Take the average of you and your SO's IQ(**) and go halfway to 100, this will give you the expected IQ of the child. E[kid IQ]=((you+SO)/2+100)/2.Is that good enough for MIT? If not, is the hope then to buy the prospects ala cat 1 hoping that the kid will friend some monied interests? That's really playing the odds because it's hard to know the unborn. In particular in this case, the kid might object to that game. E.g. they might want to "become a writer instead of joining Starfleet".

(*) I'd be interested in the Asian perspective on elite-ed. PM me.
(**) When I say IQ I just use it as a proxy for the combined level of talents.
To reiterate. I think you're overplanning because a lot of this is really outside your control. Kids tend to become their own humans. (A major reason why I don't want kids is that I don't enjoy the company of most humans, so the odds are bad for me.) A better question would be: Suppose on the off-chance that the kid(s) is really talented and want to go to MIT, football camp, garage startup, NASA academy ... will you have the "means" to support that wish. Personally, I worry a lot more about a lack of connections than a lack of money.

[mxlr650]

It's funny, as hard as I fought to avoid the American Dream and the typical insatiable appetite for money, I seem to be getting sucked back into a fairly typical course in life. All of this is still a few years out, and who knows what could change in the meantime, but at the moment it feels kind of inevitable.

Unless you are willing to reconsider your choices (wanting kids, walking neighborhoods, public schools, top universities) I am not sure why you seem to have an ideological mind block about making good money and having a steady job that can help you build assets. What is wrong with that? How would that be anyway inferior to post-FI ERE life if you enjoy your work? Its not that you are planning to lead a typical mindless consumeristic lifestyle, but somehow it seems to me that you are seeking the forum validation. Just because a forum is good for one topic, it doesn’t mean they are good for others – especially something related to your aspirations/dreams involving kids which invariably needs a leap of faith. Even if the kid is borderline stupid, it helps for that kid to be around intelligent/hardworking kids.

If bayarea is an example, most parents who want to give good education to their kids will chose Cupertino (or Palo Alto). Obviously house prices are exorbitant there, and few of the wise ones stay in SJC or nearby for few years and when kids are ready for school, they buy houses there. Even when house prices fell 50% around here in 2008, prices hardly fell in Cupertino. So may be you can move to Boston suburb, build up assets, so you will be ready when your kids are ready for school. There is way more parental participation in good public schools compared to even the best private schools, so the usual economic argument of moving to lower home price neighborhood is not very robust one.

That JKR video is like, WTF? I have nothing personal against her, but she is portraying her irresponsible adult days as “failure” instead of “mindless stupidity”; and she seems to be projecting her commercial success as something very inspirational. If someone wants to lead a cautious life, why would it be a failure Ms. JKR? Anyway, this is one danger of bringing in speakers who are known in certain accomplishments to comment on something totally different.

[C40]

I read Malcom Gladwell's latest book David and Goliath recently, and it has relevancy to this school subject. Have you read it?

He talks a lot about differences between being a big fish in a little pond and a little fish in a big pond. About how those situations can create a differences in a student's confidence and perceived chance of success.

I've attended schools that are both big ponds and little ponds, and I found some truth in what he was saying. I would guess that for you, as long as you grew up in a reasonable situation in the U.S., you would have ended up making good money (over $100k by your late 20s). Maybe you wouldn't have ended up with connections that would enable you to get a new job within very easily (I remember you mentioning your confidence you could get a (good) job within a week)

Anyways - my own experience:
- I went to a number of different schools in my youth so the quality of one specific school probably didn't have a huge impact on me. However, in high school, I went to one school for three years and a different school my junior year. The school I went to my junior year was a big school with much better teachers than the other. I wasn't used to doing much homework outside of school and I didn't increase the time I spent on it (I was working instead). I took normal to slightly high-level courses and got mediocre grades. This situation did not instill confidence in me at all. Also, I missed my old friends and wasn't very comfortable there socially.

I went back to my original high school my senior year with my old friends, comfortable area, and easy classes. I got straight As my senior year and decided to study engineering at university. If I'd have stayed at the big and challenging school, I there's a very good chance I would've studied some crap (no offense anyone) major like graphic art or business. Of course, this is N=1. Your experience is different than mine. And your income potential is higher than mine. But knowing what you know about money and happiness, how much is that bump in income potential really worth?

You could (and maybe already are) guess at the chances of income potential vs. quality of schools. Say, maybe:

Chance of your child ever making over $100k per year (in today's $)
- Normal high school: 10%
- Elite high school: 25%

Over $250,000 per year:
- Normal high school: 1%
- High-end high school: 4%

(I'm completely guessing / making these up)

It's up to you to decide how much those chances are worth to you.. and how much the school matters vs. everything else that you can control. Then - how much could you chance those numbers by being a good parent?

[akratic]

@C40: funny, my girlfriend was quoting that exact section of Gladwell's book while arguing we didn't need to/want to live in such a fancy town. (We listened to the audio version of the book on our last road trip.)

@Ego: my high school sweetheart was school choice, so I am familiar with the advantages, but living in a separate town from your friends and peers also comes with a number of downsides in terms of spontaneous interactions and connections etc.

@jacob/henrik/mxlr/everyone: you guys have given me a lot to think about, and I'm afraid I don't have a quick answer to anything else. Fortunately I've got a *lot* of time to ponder this stuff. I think you guys do have good points, but at the same time I guess I still think the best thing I could offer future children would be: 1) to let them grow up with good schools while 2) being supportive of whatever path they choose. Maybe after I think about it more I'll have a more sophisticated response. I do appreciate your comments and wish I could do them more justice.