Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Yes,but most of time its no.When conditions are too tough to handle then telling something lie is ok with me.

saving-10-years wrote:Isn't lying shutting other people out?

No, by lying one tries to prevent people from walking out of your life and keep them. If they knew your real opinions, preferences, life choices, they may not want to be with you.

No, by lying one tries to prevent people from walking out of your life and keep them. If they knew your real opinions, preferences, life choices, they may not want to be with you.

Well it depends on the lie doesn't it. And whether you are not telling ANYONE or not telling this person only. I am pretty disturbed by the phrase ...

by lying one tries to prevent people from walking out of your life and keep them

I understand about not coming on as full-strength ERE when you first meet someone, or maybe ever, or not telling the truth when the lie or person does not matter much to you, or a short-term lie to prevent something terrible happening. Most times you can simply not say anything, its not expected to reveal all when you first meet someone. Or shouldn't be. You seem to advocate consistently lying to people who you hope will become friends and build a relationship with. You would only let them know so much in order to control how they respond to you and you judge what they can cope with. There is a risk there of disappointment on both sides if you decide to always deceive about your 'real opinions, preferences, life choices'. How real is the friendship/relationship based on that exchange and how close to understanding you can anyone get?

I am always suspicious of those who claim not to lie. How can you go through life telling people nothing but the truth, it's not a sure fire way to make friends and influence others, even if it means your influence/relationship is a product of a lie. So long as the relationship is worth maintaining, the lie could be justifiable. If we lived in a world where other humans weren't nepotistic, or misogynistic etc, it may be practical to be 100% truthful, but to get what we want in the real world being a saint doesn't necessarily make sense.

I have lied in the past, to avoid shame or to cover up my mistakes. However I have learnt the burden of lying often outweighs any short term uncomfort as you have to continue a potentially complex web of lies and maintain different versions of your past and present in different relationships, or else be found out to be a liar (usually an even greater shame) so don't make a habit to lie frequently. Deciding whether or not to lie depends entirely on the situation, usually one has intuition about whether a lie would be appropriate. I'm not sure I have hard and fast rules about when I would lie. There are things I would never lie to my wife about, like finances, or past relationships, but there are little white lies I would definitely consider to avoid arkwardness, but even these can come back to bite. I would certainly lie to a stranger, or an individual intending me harm. Particularly if telling the truth resulted in some grievous harm or a loss of my freedoms. Where there's little to gain from a lie, it never makes sense.

There's an interesting chapter on lying in Harry Brown's 'How I learned to be free in an unfree world.', but I find his approach to be too optimistic about the virtues of being 100% truthful. I can think of plenty of situations where lying would be a lesser of two evil.

I guarantee anyone who is a parent has lied. When your young child has figured out that being pregnant means there's a new baby in your belly and then asks how the baby comes out, you look them right in the eye and say "The doctor unbuttons your belly button and takes the baby out." Then later on they come home from that special 'health' class in school and say "Mom, you said ..."

There are tons of other reasons. If someone is about to make a speech, or walk down the aisle, or something similar, you tell them they look great no matter what they look like. If someone gets bad news like they have cancer, you tell them with conviction that it will all be ok. When someone fails at something, you say you're positive they will do better next time. In that regard, I lie all the time. I don't consider it lying so much as being overly optimistic or kind.

Wrt ERE, I do lie about my motivations. That's new for me. I used to just spell it out, but got labeled as cheap and low rent. Now I say we do what we do for environmental and/or prepping reasons depending on the audience, and that seems to be easier for people to understand and respect. I'm not necessarily lying, but it's not completely truthful either. I just got tired of being viewed as the Bundys of Stepford.

When I read this I feel really ashamed of myself. I lie all the time about my lifestyle now.

I've learned the hard way that people get jealous of you on the ERE path. The ones who do usually can see the big picture but cannot pull it off because of discipline problems or status anxiety. But understanding what you are attempting and knowing that you will go where they cannot drives then crazy. Nowadays when I sniff one of these types I start lying.

Once you actually retire, anyone with half a brain can do the math and become jealous. If not dangerous, they can at least be irritating.

So I've lost some close friends.

Anyhow, I should have lied. I hang out with myself a lot these days. I should have just lied.

Sclass wrote:Anyhow, I should have lied. I hang out with myself a lot these days. I should have just lied.

+1

Being 'authentic' can be very lonely.

This is something that might separate us from one couple that we see from time to time. The wife would totally understand the 'why' but probably not the 'how' of our ERE plans. The husband (whom I used to work with) would never understand and has a sort of protestant work ethic going on. I doubt he would even let his wife RE.

I can honestly see us drifting away from them unless we maintain some sort of fake persona, which I don't like.

On the other side I have another friend that I used to work with, and still talk to regularly that completely understands our ERE plan, but doesn't really have the drive to do it himself. Despite this, we would totally remain friends after we ERE since he knows all about our plans now and thinks it is awesome.

I think if you are authentic from the get go, there is no reason to lie later on. Just find your crowd from the start. Granted this is still difficult.

@cmonkey

I have a friend like the 2nd you described. I told him about my ERE plans about a year ago and although he told me he could never spend as little as I do (he is more the traditional young guy looking for wife, kids, house, vacations, restaurants, etc), he doesn't mind about my plans, actually he finds them fascinating. On my side, I don't want to follow his path obviously, but I am also ok with it. I actually helped him with starting a budget and saving when he got his fist job, but aside from that, money is not something important in our friendship.

To other people (most people) I am much more tactical of what I disclose. I only told about my plans to one of my coworkers after months of getting to know him. And he thanked me for the ERE/FI material. The key is to be honest with people that want to learn.

However, I am currently in a rough mental patch. I suspect I have some mental/anxiety/social issues and I will be seeing a psychiatrist soon. This is important because, when you get uber stressed out just being with other people, it doesn't help that they notice you don't eat meat, that you wear the same clothes almost every day, that you don't have a car, that you choose to live in a smaller place etc etc. People notice these things and start asking questions. I still don't know how to handle this quite well. My overall strategy has been to try to evade on most issues, sometimes to be factual (talking about costs of car/house vs alternatives). The evading tacting gets you isolation, the factual answers get you more question (why are you saving that money??)

I really hope someday I can be more extraverted and sure of myself when trying to assert my diferences. For the time being, I mostly focus on the doing, instead of talking, that is something that someone in this forum said to me and really stuck. But talking is also important in life... at least to me.

Noided wrote:@cmonkey
However, I am currently in a rough mental patch. I suspect I have some mental/anxiety/social issues and I will be seeing a psychiatrist soon. This is important because, when you get uber stressed out just being with other people, it doesn't help that they notice you don't eat meat, that you wear the same clothes almost every day, that you don't have a car, that you choose to live in a smaller place etc etc. People notice these things and start asking questions. I still don't know how to handle this quite well. My overall strategy has been to try to evade on most issues, sometimes to be factual (talking about costs of car/house vs alternatives). The evading tacting gets you isolation, the factual answers get you more question (why are you saving that money??)

A suggestion...

When confronted with too many question, when you risk being judged and fear isolation; you can pick something you do that costs AND people value in general/consider acceptable, and moan about how much it costs.

Imaginary examples:

Coworkers pester Vexed why he cycles to work instead of buying a car. He talks about downpayment on diamond rings and vacations to Greece and US.

When neighbors try to look down upon Sccalas for living modestly, Sccalas tells them how taking care of ailing parents leaves Sccalas with low savings.

SimpleLife tells his friends how he has to fix his rentals of the damage done by previous tenants before letting it out again; when they disapprove of his simple life.

fiby41 wrote:
But then you will have to maintain a persona that is half a facade which is tedious. Do you lie? Under what circumstances is it okay to lie?

Sure. And its generally ok when you are just dealing with someone else's idle curiosity or personal narrative/cognitive dissonance. One is not required to satisfy the informational wants of the masses and casual acquaintances, unless one actually cares what that particular person thinks. But non-information is generally the better course than dis- or mis-information.

Interesting new book about dishonesty for the reading list: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CD36FF6/re ... nav-subnav

I read Ariely's book. It was decent. It mainly focuses on how the social environment can enable one to lie. Also, how once one lies, it becomes harder and harder for them to break out of that mold. It's your beloved foolish consistency, Dragline.

I don't bother to lie, but I don't give out too much information either. On the subject of ER I emphasize living a humble, low cost lifestyle, not having lot of wealth. Just sitting here I can't name anyone who has reacted negatively off the top of my head. Most offer encouragement. At the same time I won't maintain any of the friendships I have now once I ER since I'll be leaving here with no plans to ever return, so I guess I won't get to see how people change once this is more than talk. Maybe no one believes me.

Once I get relocated I look old enough that being "retired" won't be a shocker. In Minnesota one of my "next door" neighbors retired at 55 too, so I'll blend right in.

A thought...

We can apply Games Theory here. Lie to those who have lied to you. But they must be caught first or be habitual liars. In this case, the advantage goes to those who lie first, trust least and cover their tracks well.

Demerit list of those who lie to us based on intent or harm caused:

Lied to us to exploit us
Lied to us to protect their self-interest, with no effect on us
Lied to us to protect their friends, with no effect on us
Lied to us to protect their self-interest, at our cost
Lied to us to protect their friends, at our cost
Lied to us for no discernible reason

It seems like many people (probably unknowingly) use game theory as a basis for lying in social situations. I think that's why some people get mad at an honest person -- they've chosen not to play the game. GT lying feels a lot like Machiavelli's rule about using honestly as a weapon, though. IIRC, his advice was to use the truth as a ploy and means of disarming people, implying that people should lie most of the time to keep the quiver full. (Sorry if I'm remembering that incorrectly, it's been a long time since I actually read Machiavelli.)

Relentless honestly -- not the TMI kind but the 'open book' kind -- is supposed to be the healthiest way to live. Being honest is a way to disarm your opponent, although it can feel like you are just handing over more bullets for their gun. A better metaphor might be when confronted by an attacker, instead of fight or flight, drop your shield and stand your ground. In that way, you take the 'game' out of the situation. Hopefully they will lose interest. Even if they don't, there's no longer a game so there's no longer a winner. You've taken away their victory.

There was also a study that showed that people who were completely honest in all of their dealings were healthier ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/0 ... 48144.html "The researchers found that in the “no lies” group, the fewer lies the study participants told, the better their health. For example, telling fewer white lies was associated with fewer feelings of tension or melancholy, as well as fewer health problems like headaches and sore throats, the researchers found. ... And overall, telling fewer lies over the study period was linked with feeling more honest and having improved relationships."

@jennypenny: I agree with what you wrote. However, the issue becomes more problematic when you also consider emotional honesty and forthright communication of preferences. Also, in the realm of honest dealings people sometimes confuse promise with contract.

Person 1 to Person 2: I will love you forever.

Person 2 drowns the kitten that belongs to Person 1

Person 1: I hate you.

Person 2: But, you said you would love me forever. You are a liar!!!

IOW, over even the very short run, rigorous evaluation of honesty can only be relevant in the realm of purely factual matters, and life and human interactions are greatly influenced by matters that are not purely factual, even some that may seem that way on the surface. For instance, was your father lying to you 30 years ago if he told you that investing in your own home was safe? So, it's almost always childish to resort to lying yourself, but it is also childish to overly rely on others to convey the truth. OTOH, the ability to "see" the truth in the moment through unbiased perspective, and the ability to allow yourself to be emotionally honest or vulnerable in the moment, are the hallmarks of childlike strength.

Another problem with the consideration of truth is that it can be a process that doesn't honor complexity. For instance, does there exist a scientific paper written in 1852 that is more honest in its depiction of the world we share than "Bleak House?" Truth is often only in your possession like the umbrella you don't yet know you left on the train.

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@ShriekingFeralHatred

Lol, are you serious? Where do you live if you don't mind sharing?

I can't imagine that happening here in ny.

@James_0011:

getting phone calls about brute's abducted daughter gets real old real quick. even if brute doesn't have a daughter.

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