Early Retirement Extreme Forums

I just read Matt Fitzgerald's How Bad Do You Want It? Mastering the Psychology of Mind Over Muscle. It focused on extreme endurance athletes and how they pushed themselves harder. It's really heavy on the details wrt to athletes' performances. If you're into the Tour or Ironman or marathoning, you'll probably love the stories. If not, you might find yourself skipping over some of the race details. No matter, it's still good. He talks about a different coping mechanism in each chapter. As you read, you'll see which methods/athletes are similar to your personality and which aren't, and then try the appropriate skills. Some of the methods include bracing, the group effect, managing expectations, and finding workarounds.

I wonder about some of the research he mentions. I'm going to look into it a little more.

Maybe it's just that I always have ERE in the back of my mind, but I found myself comparing some of the endurance issues/coping skills to people's struggle with the financial journey to FI/ERE. The chapter on the Group Effect in particular made me think of the forum.

The one thing that always comes to mind when I read these types of books is whether outliers are a good example for normal people. Sometimes I think no, but then I think of jacob and how many people here have emulated or been inspired by him and achieved great results, even if they fall short of what he has done. I dunno.


Here's an AOM podcast with Fitzgerald talking about the book. http://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/05/2 ... u-want-it/
Article on the group effect http://mattfitzgerald.org/pdfs/Mens-Running-Jan.pdf
Article on how resilience beats talent http://mattfitzgerald.org/pdfs/070-073_LavaApril.pdf

brute doesn't want it that bad. that being anything, really.

Ooooh. Reserved the audio book. You know I love this stuff.

the "wall" during marathons is the body running low on blood glucose and the brain switching into panic mode. there's a solution, and it's training on a ketogenic diet. no reliance on blood sugar, no wall.

but brute loves how some humans just have to fetishize suffering.

@Ego--I thought of you when I read the book. He focuses on LeMond and Geb and others.

I didn't like the section on Pre though, probably because I don't think he should be idolized the way that he is. Yes, he had a lot of heart and put everything he had into his races. OTOH, he was a reckless person who didn't like rules and wasn't always prepared for his races. Ultimately, that recklessness killed him. I've always wondered if he would have found success outside of the US if he'd lived. Don't get me wrong, he was an amazing runner. I've visited Hayward and the memorial where he died. I just think he might not be the best role model for young runners.

BRUTE wrote:the "wall" during marathons is the body running low on blood glucose and the brain switching into panic mode. there's a solution, and it's training on a ketogenic diet. no reliance on blood sugar, no wall.

but brute loves how some humans just have to fetishize suffering.

Mark Sisson was just on podcasts for "Bulletproof Radio" and "The Art of Manliness" talking about this. Essentially, he said that he learned the best methods of training for long-term success by accident when coaching out-of-shape people. The magic formula he learned was doing most of your exercise (lots of slow work) at a heart rate of approximately 180 minus age, and only doing high-stress/intensity workouts intermittently. He said he was in better shape after four or five years of that than when he was competing and working himself to death.

He said that most hard-core training methods were really not training the body so much as training the mind to endure suffering.

I loved the fact that he discovered this by accident.

Getting back to the OP, I actually don't think that outliers are necessarily good models to emulate. But they are excellent models to establish a range of possibilities, because they force you to consider more consciously why you choose not to live on those extremes -- they eliminate the cop-out of "nobody can do that."

Dragline wrote:Getting back to the OP, I actually don't think that outliers are necessarily good models to emulate. But they are excellent models to establish a range of possibilities, because they force you to consider more consciously why you choose not to live on those extremes -- they eliminate the cop-out of "nobody can do that."

One of the points Fitzgerald made in the book was that for the elite in any sport, records are just mental road blocks. Once someone breaks through one of them (like the 4 minute mile), then everyone does it. That seems to fit with the idea that outliers expand on the range of possibilities for average folks, too.

contrary(?) theory: human training and nutritional sciences and methods keep improving. since most world-class elite athletes operate at the edge of current techniques, all of them will be relatively close to any arbitrary numbers at a similar time. obviously one of them has to break the record first, but if one does it, all athletes on a similar level are close or able to break it.

now there can obviously be a trickle-down effect from elite training to the regular human, but brute would suggest not all of the techniques apply to the hobbyist.

Dragline wrote:Mark Sisson was just on podcasts for "Bulletproof Radio" and "The Art of Manliness" talking about this. Essentially, he said that he learned the best methods of training for long-term success by accident when coaching out-of-shape people. The magic formula he learned was doing most of your exercise (lots of slow work) at a heart rate of approximately 180 minus age, and only doing high-stress/intensity workouts intermittently.

I haven't listened to the podcasts. Does that jive with the primal workout on his website?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-b ... an-basics/

Monday – Sprint
Tuesday – Lift Heavy Things
Wednesday – Move Slowly, Play or Rest
Thursday – HIIT
Friday – Move Slowly, Play or Rest
Saturday – Lift Heavy Things
Sunday – Move Slowly, Play or Rest

I've run two marathons and two ultras and never experienced the wall, though I sure got tired. I think it's the long runs, gradually increased in the months leading up to the race, that prevented it. Or what Dragline said. I never measure my heart rate but what he mentioned sounds like long, slow runs. Most of my bicycling is at about the same effort level unless I have hills to climb.

Ego wrote: I haven't listened to the podcasts. Does that jive with the primal workout on his website?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-b ... an-basics/

I'm not sure -- but he is promoting a new book about training endurance athletes in a less stressful way than what has been standard practice, which is where the new stuff comes from.

Runners World has training plans on their web site that will let almost anybody go from practically zero to running marathons. Not fast, but completing them anyway. That's without running a hundred miles a week like people used to do. They start out mixing walking with running, and increasing the proportion of running.

I just finished Rich Roll's Finding Ultra. He also mentions slowing down to increase aerobic capacity and gave an example similar to the 180-age heart rate like Sisson.

Finding Ultra was good. Better written than Fitzgerald's book, although more of a biography. It's embarrassing to admit how well I could relate to Roll's younger self. That itch he had and drive to find something in which to immerse himself, and prove himself, is something I still struggle with all the time.

jennypenny wrote:I just finished Rich Roll's Finding Ultra. He also mentions slowing down to increase aerobic capacity and gave an example similar to the 180-age heart rate like Sisson.

Interesting. I've noticed that when people are trying to build a movement - fitness or otherwise - they start out differentiating themselves from others but then reach a saturation point with differentiation and realize they've got to attract those who are turned off by anything that is difficult or too different from the norm.

Notice how Jacob is being encouraged to look normal in the photos thread. I suspect he had anticipated this temptation from the start and inserted "Extreme" in the name on purpose.

I get the feeling that's where Roll and Sisson are today. They've saturated their niche groups. In order to grow they've got to appeal to broader audiences. There is a massive group turned off by anything high intensity. They will pay good money to be told they can have their cake and eat it too.

I see your point. At first, they attract people who are interested because they are 'different' but now they have to put out the message that 'anyone can do it' to broaden their appeal. Makes sense.

I thought telling jacob to look 'normal' was to contradict the idea that he was weird, not extreme. I would think the goal is to show he's an outlier but not Abby Normal.

brute also definitely senses a payday-motivation to all those diet/fitness movements. brute still isn't sure if he should be angry about it, after all, most of the content is free.

but just looking at recent history, there's primal/paleo/bulletproof/wild-diets, which are essentially the same thing with a few details changed.