Nomadic-ERE Year 5 - Wanderlust Prevails

Where are you and where are you going?
2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Geographical arbitrage has been a key part of my initial FIRE planning. It was something that a WL5 salivates at the idea of doing, to "hack" the system. A WL6 will be able to adapt to their surroundings and make renaissance lifestyle work anywhere they find themselves. Life is an endless number of tradeoffs. Name the top 5 most expensive microcosms of any developed country and surely there is a way to thrive in each on very little money with enough creativity and diverse forms of capital. The biggest hurdle to living in many desirable places on the cheap is housing. Insurance is not really an issue outside of select parts of the USA. Alternative housing (vehicle, boat, container, etc) are a form of geoarbitrage at a micro scale. The big benefit to this route that I see, is more control over your broader surroundings and community. These thoughts go through my head as I am trying to figure out our next couple of moves. It's clear to us that we don't want to live in our current location long term, which makes predicting anything concretely difficult past a few years. Therefor, financially I feel that I've been more conservative than I should be. DW and I have been discussing lately, the different possibilities for semi/permanent home bases. From locations, to types of dwellings, etc.

Two things are crystal clear. We both see ourselves owning a flat in EU. We both desire something reliable/consistent as a housing option in the USA. We are ok with short term rentals and winging it for the next year or two, but ultimately need something to call "ours". Right now the most appealing idea is to buy land and build a structure ourselves. This will provide a lot of flexibility in terms of location, timeline, cost, etc. I don't think we will want to take out mortgages or loans for either of the two. This will require significant capital upfront, but then allow for a greatly reduced cost of living.

Our budget for a flat in tier 2 EU city will be <$125k USD (ideally less)
Our budget for land/DIY structure in the USA will be <$125k USD (ideally less)

We don't have anywhere near this amount of cash. Therefor a loan of some sort might be necessary.

We also have a lot of time to plan this. In an ideal world, we would be able to share the running costs of these properties by taking on lodgers, or figuring out useful ways to produce other resources via the land. If we go the tiny house route in the USA, it can be sublet to someone who already has an AirBnB in a desirable area and have them manage guests for a share of the proceeds.

There is also the question of what happens to the Orchard when my grandfather passes. In polish law, it's written to my mother. She's not the type to do the necessary upkeep/maintenance. It may be possible to purchase that and build/improve the existing structure. This would require a lot more work/maintenance than a flat. Another tradeoff....

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Western Red Cedar »

I was heavily focused on figuring out a long-term housing strategy for a long time. I finally reached a point where I decided to not spend much more mental bandwidth on that issue until we finished traveling. There are so many unknown variables when one starts planning beyond a few years. I think talking about it with your partner and going through the planning can be valuable, but a lot can change as a result of your experiences.

I've probably mentioned it before, but the Mad Fientist podcast where he talks about how different his FI life was compared to what he imagined was really impactful for me. He and his wife originally planned on multiple months of travel internationally and in the US. They realized shortly after a month on the road that it wasn't what they really wanted.

One thing to keep in mind if you end up purchasing the EU flat first, is that it is a pretty attractive asset that you can leverage in your system. Rolf Potts has talked about doing house swaps with other writers. They stay at his farm in Kansas for a month, and he will stay in their flat in Brooklyn or Europe. You could easily come up with some really interesting and creative opportunities for spending time in the US that meshes well with your web of goals without actually owning property. Some of those would likely include a stronger social circle and community.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Yea, the housing thing is especially challenging. More than a few years out we can't even predict how easy it will be to move across international borders....pricing is also something I want to hedge against. You posted yesterday about your rent increasing, which was timely because several people I know that had to renegotiate their leases saw large price increases in our area too. The price of short term furnished rentals has gone up 50-100% compared to just a few short years ago.

Purchasing an abode on both continents would be a good hedge against some crazy housing crisis and and rapid price inflation. I know Seppia took a similar approach with his flat in Italy. The carrying costs are small, for us in EU it looks like ~$150-200/month + however much electric we use while actually staying there.

House swaps are a great idea! We also hope to mix in workaway, house/pet sitting, jaunts of car camping, stays with friends/family, bikepacking, and long distance hiking.

My brother purchased a large property in a desirable area (east coast mountains) with two houses on it, and plenty of space. He is turning the smaller home into a full time AirBnB/Rental. If we dropped a tinyhouse on a trailer and kitted it out to be easily managed as a second rental on the property, I don't think it would be that hard to find a suitable arrangement. The thing is, for our US homebase, we want it to be somewhere in close proximity to where we REALLY want to live, and make roots and build a community. We just haven't seen enough of the USA.....at one point PNW sounded good, but with the whole fire thing getting worse, I don't know if that's going to work. This past winter has us considering Florida, and while it's not ideal from a landscape perspective (we like mountains generally), we'll get plenty of that in the EU, or on road trips in the US. There's something great about spending Dec-March in 70 degree weather, but a property there needs much more maintenance due to humidity, sun, and critters.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

DW and I take a long walk most mornings, especially if it's going to be too hot during the middle of the day. On todays walk we were discussing the most flexible options for the type of arrangement we want ("home" base in two continents), and we are thinking through the logistics of a flat in EU with something mobile in the USA (campervan/adventure rig) so we're not completely homeless when returning to the USA while avoiding a ton of overhead. The only logistical issue I can think of is finding indoor storage. Not something we want to leave out in the elements with all of our gear packed away inside.....any suggestions on storing a larger vehicle securely for months at a time? Monetizing it could also be possible (renting it out while we're in the EU via a 3rd party)...

sky
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by sky »

My thoughts would run toward buying a small box truck in the US, and building out a simple living space that could be removed if necessary. This would only work if you arrive when the climate is mild enough to be comfortable in an un-airconditioned space. As far as parking goes, either rely on stable family with property or pay for secure storage, either a garage or parking space behind a fence.

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Ego
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Ego »

We kept our camper van in storage for two of our incarnations. The first time we stored it with my previous employer for free. The second time we paid to store it.

Since then we've learned that transitions without the van are more challenging but are also the times where necessity and serendipity combined to create new and interesting opportunities. Having the van solved the immediate problem of housing but created other problems. One of the advantages of our lifestyle is that we can follow whims. Having that solved problem took away the impetus to go out and create interesting solutions.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Western Red Cedar »

I think your best bet would be to find family or a close friend to store it with. If you have any friends/family with rural properties, storing something like that isn't too much of an imposition.

I think it is wise to take time, explore, and set up a base where you really want to live. Connecting with a community will be valuable if you are gone for large chunks of the year.

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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Frugalchicos »

Note it is hard to get a loan for a condo overseas. It is also hard to get a mortgage in the EU if you don’t have a local reliable and stable source of income.

We had to buy our properties in cash.

Also, where were you thinking in moving to? I would recommend the area of Valencia. Valencia has the best winter in Europe and house prices are quite cheap since the overbuilt like crazy before the 2008 crisis.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

@Frugalchicos, it's ok. We can get a loan in the USA and use the funds in EU. Not a conventional mortgage, but there are a few options right now that I previously explored last year when looking at purchasing something in Poland. If you have a home in USA, HELOC is an easy one. Otherwise someone with investments can try to get a margin loan or borrow against their 401k if they plan to continue with their employer. $100-125k is a big check to write for us.

From a family/social net perspective, southern Poland makes a lot of sense. I have a big group of friends and cousins in one city. RE is cheap, and it's great weather from May through October. Very easy access to most of Europe, but crappy winters and summers can get hot in the plain areas during July/August. Luckily it's very near the mountains so there is reprieve from the heat. If we were to root down somewhere completely new, it's hard to say. We haven't seen enough of the EU yet to make an informed decision. I can tell you one thing. Spain and northern Italy were the two places we were by far most looking forward to seeing/living in 2020. We got stuck in Portugal instead and fell in love. I can totally see living in Portugal and having a home base there, but Spain looks even more diverse and DW and I could pick up Spanish much more easily. Your recommendation inspired us both yesterday to download the Duolingo app and start lessons......We are now planning to spend 6-8 weeks in Spain this upcoming spring, likely at the end of April through early June......then head to Poland after. A home base in Spain or Portugal would be utilized more in the shoulder season probably. We have friends/family in Florida, which makes the USA a good base in the winter too, and one of the more cost effective options. At the end of the day, we are probably going to spend time living in each for months at a time, and in different parts of the year before purchasing anything. Rents are SOOO cheap in Valencia! I looked in idealista and most of Spain and just about anywhere outside of Lisbon in Portugal are very affordable. If we keep working for another 12-18 months we could likely afford a flat for cash.

@WRC, good point, we do have family that has some land, both in FL and NY. Valid point on taking our time, and something we will definitely do. Housing is cheap enough in the EU that one can do a 2 year lease for ~$12-24k total in many places, to make sure that it makes sense long term. We very well may do that.

@Ego, fair enough! Though we may just be leaning toward a vehicle suitable for transporting us + gear with a large degree of freedom (even a midsize pickup with a shell, or a smaller van/minivan/suv etc. That way we solve the transportation issue, the gear/kit storage issue, and in a pinch the housing issue if needed. Still provides a great deal of freedom, and buying/selling a vehicle every time you switch continents can get expensive/annoying. In the EU, I don't presume w would purchase a vehicle. The public transport is just much more reliable/available/affordable.

@Sky, that's an interesting idea for sure. I'm thinking that while we're still relatively young it makes more sense to have something smaller for reliable transportation and having a good camping kit. Feel you on the mild weather, and part of the reason of wanting to be mobile is being able to follow the desired weather/climate etc. PNW burning? Head to the Adirondacks. Ideally we would like something with 4WD that could get us a bit further than everyone else who has an RV/trailer/van etc.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

In an effort to improve both physical and mental health, this week I started experimenting with cutting out alcohol and picking up running again. Since starting the new job a little under 3 months ago, my weight has managed to creep up ~12 lbs, and that's no joke! I also noticed my alcohol consumption increasing, both frequency and amount. As a result I was getting lackluster sleep, and feeling sluggish. With the added lbs of bodyweight, also comes insulin resistance, more strain on joints, and overall poorer health markers. Add to this the stress of FT work, and feeling guilt/remorse about regression of healthy habits and it's not an overall good place.

Always had a love/hate relationship with running. It started off as hate back in 2015 when I signed up for my first triathlon. It sucked because I "had" to run to finish the race. Overall I enjoyed triathlon and over the following 2 years worked up to a half Ironman. To prepare for that race, I trained running as little as possible, but still had to run a half marathon after biking 90km and swimming 2km! I did not enjoy running much if at all during those years. That was my last triathlon, and after that race and becoming friends with fellow athletes in my area, social runs began. Each year I would run maybe 250 miles, so by no means a lot of running, but I enjoyed the crap out of it! The longest run each year was always a 10 mile (~16km) brewery run, which I usually mustered a <10:00 mile pace for.

When we moved to Europe at the start of the pandemic, I stopped running. Opting for biking and a LOT of walking with DW instead. Ever since then I haven't been able to get myself back into it. Well this week the decision was made, I would slowly work back up to being able to run a few miles every couple of days. This will help with mood (I always felt great even after a shorter 5k run!), getting me outside more, and also encourage to lose weight, as running is not great for the joints when you weigh about 100kg!

I'm also going to commit to riding the MTB 2X a week consistently. This provides 1.5-2 hours of high intensity interval training and will also help me improve my lap times and technique. In 2019 I completed my first MTB endurance race (6 hours) and it was a blast, the training part was the best part. I have a group local to me and many trails to ride less than 30 minutes away by car. Since I don't drive aside groceries and visiting family these days, it's no bother to drive a bit to reach some of the better but further trails. There are several I can ride to from my front door on the weekends.

This also got me thinking about homeotelic goals and activities....I started writing out things that I need to do more regularly because they are enjoyable and can really help improve quality of life with very little effort/cost, and expand opportunities down the line.

Running - slowly build back up to 3-5 miles 1-2x per week
Mountain Biking - 2x a week
Practicing Spanish - currently building up daily habit via Duolingo
Sailing - take steps to learn, get license
Cooking - learn some new techniques and come up with new recipes incorporating them
Reselling - Since moving back to the USA, realized how much valuable stuff gets put to the curb. A bit of cleaning/small repairs and could be possible to make some spare change and learn some skills
Habitat For Humanity - Always wanted to volunteer on a project, but need it to be relatively close. Would possibly be able to do this 1/2 day a week during the workweek
Meditating - have always failed to even do this consistently for more than a week during past attempts
Gratitude journal - even if it starts with writing down one thing a day and at night that I'm grateful for
Eating more mindfully - using the high from sugary or fatty foods as a self-medication has been a big part of weight gain, when I'm mentally in a good place my weight maintains ~15 lbs (7 kg) lower than where it is now.

Some of these are already works in progress, others need to slowly start in the coming days, others might take a bit longer (sailing, HFH).....

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Seppia
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Seppia »

In general, great to see you’re as enthusiastic and energetic as always!

I’ve also decided to cut back on alcohol a little while ago, and am taking advantage of my vacations to stay completely off it.
Currently in my 10th day alcohol free, feels great.
I’ll be visiting my friend in Sweden in 10 days and he’s just gotten back from Serbia with some homemade Rakia, so I know my ceiling is 20 days lol
2Birds1Stone wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:11 am
Purchasing an abode on both continents would be a good hedge against some crazy housing crisis and and rapid price inflation. The carrying costs are small, for us in EU it looks like ~$150-200/month + however much electric we use while actually staying there.
Hoping to give you some useful insight on what has been my experience:
In retrospect, we are super happy about the decision.
Obviously if I look at it from a pure cost perspective, staying in a hotel/b&b/whatever would have been better.
Having the money invested in the stock market would have yielded better returns.
But the piece of mind of knowing “hey worst case scenario we have a place to be” has been priceless.
We look at climbing housing prices across the globe and we shrug our shoulders.
Plus, for serial wanderers like us, having a place to call “home” is a very important psychological anchor.

If you seriously look into a similar option, some recommendations/info that maybe useful:

- get something new/recently built. Old apartments break down more easily and more often, and this coupled with the fact you will not be living there for long periods of time can prove to be disastrous. New places are more expensive per sqm, but are also usually built more rationally and hence allow for a smaller space, so often the real gap in pricing isn’t huge.
- get something small. Ours is somewhere around 500sqf with a room, a bathroom, and a mezzanine. Smaller means less costs and less room to stock shit.
- in Latin Europe, owning a place is usually less expensive VS the USA. I see you mention Florida. Florida has very high property tax.
Our costs all in (common expenses with the neighbors + electricity + WiFi + property tax + other taxes + insurance against catastrophic events) are 1900€/year excluding extra-ordinary expenses, so probably a real average of 2300-2500€/year where most years it’s 1900 and once a decade it’s much higher because we need to redo the roof.
Note that should we move there the costs would go down to around 1200-1300, as property tax would disappear.
There is no property tax on the primary residence in Italy below a certain house value (I suspect it’s the same in most of Latin Europe), but since we are living in HK our apartment counts as a second home and hence taxed.
We could almost certainly turn the apartment into a zero-cost* thing if we rented it out while we’re away.

In times of high stock market valuations, I think there are worse ideas than purchasing a small apartment in cash

*well, excluding the opportunity cost of owning VS say investing in stocks

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Thank you for the advice, my friend. We would very much prefer to buy in Europe first. Florida is a good option for some sort of home base, but it would depend on where we bought in Europe. In my home city in Poland, the prices right now are 2100-2300 euro per square meter for new construction, and that's usually unfinished. Second hand market you can get a finished place in good shape for those prices. We like the size of ~40 sq/meters so looking around 90k euro or $110k usd. We figure $10-15k buffer will be good for any irregular expenses of ownership in the first few years.

PS - I don't think 500 sq/ft flat is that small at all :) I guess with a kiddo it could be. For us it's perfect. We lived in smaller for nearly 8 years.

If we end up preferring a warmer climate in EU then Portugal and Spain are top on the list. Based on preliminary research, Spain real estate looks much cheaper in cities of 150-300k residents. For us it will be all about the location. Proximity to nature, air quality, things to do etc. Need to spend a few months living in several places to get a feel for them. This is what excites us for our next trip across the pond....we're scouting locations for sure.

PSS - for FL taxes, "What is the Florida Property Tax Rate? Florida's average real property tax rate is 0.98%, which is slightly lower than the U.S. average of 1.08%. The average Florida homeowner pays $1,752 each year in real property taxes, although that amount varies between counties."

That's not too high. Where I live now it's ~3%!!!

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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Frugalchicos »

I am going to join you in ditching the alcohol.

I found myself drinking more beers than usual lately. I can correlate it to /fatherhood stress.

Are you thinking in signing up for a half marathon? I picked up running a couple of years ago and signing up for the race helped me keeping the commitment.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Oi, I ended my 5 day streak of no alcohol on Friday, with a few drinks over the weekend, both during a BBQ, as well as during the "hurricane" that missed us. Back on the wagon since Sunday evening and looking forward to seeing how things progress. My training was suddenly halted due to straining my neck, presumably in my sleep on Sunday night. Woke up incredibly stiff and had to forgo the gym today.

@Frugalchicos, 13.1 is waaaaay longer than I would want to train for. Running is enjoyable to me, but anything over 5 miles takes a huge toll on the joints of a 100 kg runner. Heck, even when I'm at my ideal weight of 90 kg it doesn't feel good on my knees and feet to run that much on pavement. I've only ran 13.1 one time independently of a triathlon, just to see how it felt, managed a sub 2 hour time but took a week to recover =P The only other time covering that distance was during a half Ironman, and I had to hobble half of it......

The plan is to build up to regular runs in the 3-5 mile range, and maybe get on the trails for some variety. Really need to get my weight down even for those types of 30-40 mile months.

Introspection

There is a lot up in the air right now with regards to DW's work situation that will determine our living/traveling options over the next 6-12 months. It's making it hard to focus on my own work right now, since I'm half checked out mentally. Right now I'm struggling with purpose. So many unanswered questions that are dancing on the periphery of my mind.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by classical_Liberal »

Glad you're focusing more on health and fitness again. These are things that have seemed to be great motivators to you in the past.

I also think, people like us who focused a lot of energy towards the goal of "FI" for long periods of time need to refocus ourselves once money is no longer a limiting factor in our lives. It's almost like a type of grief sets in once it's been accomplished. Hard to know what to do with ourselves when "money making/saving" machine purpose is minimized. People who became FI as a side effect of other goals likely do not experience this grief in the same way.

Lucky C
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Lucky C »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:22 am
just about anywhere outside of Lisbon in Portugal are very affordable.
Hi 2Birds1Stone, I have been doing something half way between daydream and serious lifestyle design and currently (based on casual research over the past couple weeks) Lisbon seems very appealing to me. Looks like you've spent 3 months there? If you were to move there permanently would you be doing one of the "Golden Visa" options?

Are you looking outside of Lisbon for better affordability or are you just not interested in living in the middle of a city? My family would appreciate some natural scenery but we aren't nature nuts and appreciate being near "things to do" so ideally we would live somewhere with easy access to urban centers but also have a little room for our own outdoor space and not feel so cramped. The American solution to that is of course suburbia and car dependency, which I would like to get away from... hence Europe seems to make more sense than staying in the Americas.

I don't really know much about Portugal at all, so if you have any tips on where to take a deeper research dive from an ERE perspective, I would love to read about it!

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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Hey Lucky C. I'm not sure how helpful my anecdotal experience will be.......but here's a shot.

Portugal in general has a mild climate, excellent food, inexpensive housing (outside of Lisbon, even close by, ex; 30-45 minutes away by metro/train), extremely friendly people, decent social programs, friendly to immigration/expats, a lot of things to do for lovers of nature and outdoors, easy access to the rest of Europe, and checked a lot of boxes for DW and I.

I have dual citizenship, so I can move there without a golden Visa, and my wife is then able to become a resident fairly easily even without EU citizenship.

Not sure about ERE perspective, because ERE means different things to different people, but it's one of the cheapest places to live in Western Europe. The climate makes bike transport appealing most of the year, and the public transportation infrastructure is REALLY good. The building/land codes are such that it's not too difficult to buy a piece of land and put a small structure on it, or buy something already built and make it your own. The more rural areas are extremely inexpensive, and life is how it was 50+ years ago. It's a slower pace of life, and people are much more social than many other parts of Europe.

That being said, this is all an outsiders perspective. The hardest thing I see from a WOG perspective is integrating into the local society deeply. English is spoken widely, but I think it will take some time to make friends and get involved in projects with locals that you may need to feel rooted. We made some friends there already, and can see it would be possible, but harder than say somewhere you speak the language fluently and understand the culture deeper.

I have a love/hate relationship with their YouTube channel, but https://www.youtube.com/c/OurRichJourney/videos has some good videos on real estate prices, taxes, etc. They also created a course and did a lot of the research for someone wanting to move there permanently as a US citizen. They have some sort of non-habitual retiree tax scheme which prevents you from having to file/pay taxes on investment income that's from outside of the EU, which can be beneficial if you're ERE'd.

Hope that helps. Wish I could batsignal @anesde, because he's Portuguese and offered some good insight before I traveled there.

Also, if you want nature, space, lcol, and access to medium/larger city easily.....it's a great place. I'm sure @frugalchicos can say the same thing about Spain, and @ItsALongStory & @Seppia about Italy.

Short term furnished rental market/AirBnB is SOOO cheap over in those countries that I strongly recommend spending a few months in each to get a feel for the lifestyle/culture......it's something we CANNOT wait to get back to.

I almost bought flights to Valencia for end of April on Friday......but gonna hold off a few more months to see how Covid stuff shakes out across the pond.

From a budget perspective. If you're not lavish, 2 people can comfortably live on $24-30k USD/yr.
Last edited by 2Birds1Stone on Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

take2
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by take2 »

Holy cow Batman! I’m actually vacationing in the Algarve right now so your batsignal was extra strong.

I don’t have much to add really - 2B1s covered it off pretty well. My family’s from the north, just outside of Braga so not really near Lisbon. I can attest that outside of Lisbon everything is very cheap, and even in Lisbon it’s still a fraction of every Western European capitals.

The NHR scheme 2b1s alluded to is the Non-habitual resident scheme which (despite its name) is only applicable if you qualify and live in Portugal (min. 6 months a year). Suggest to look into it for more details but it does indeed reduce tax burden, both for external income earned outside of Portugal (which you would normally get taxed on as Portugal taxes worldwide income on residents) and for any income earned inside of Portugal (20% flat tax vs. the progressive tax which goes up to 48%). Note that you need to qualify for it and need the right to reside first so if you don’t have visa or EU passport you need that first. I don’t know anything about the golden visa other than that it exists but suspect you can find a lot of info on it on the web; usually it’s directed to British citizens.

I’m considering moving to Lisbon myself, possibly to Estoril or Cascais. These are the most expensive parts of greater Lisbon, and not particularly ERE but they do offer good access into the city, whilst being adjacent to beaches and the large national park (Sintra). My thoughts are more about raising a family and staying near civilization, plus giving opportunities to my kids, etc. If it was just me and DW I would move to the North and live like a king for about €15k a year. I have my doubts about the quality of education up there though.

It’s hard for me to say re: integration but I think in the major cities or Lisbon or Porto it wouldn’t be too difficult. Lots of expats, and the Portuguese are quite friendly in general. However the aforementioned cheap regal living in the North would be harder for a non-native. Small rural towns don’t have expats nor a lot of people who speak English, etc. Certainly not impossible though.

What part of Lisbon did you stay in last year 2B1S?

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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Sept 1, 2021
NW = 34.3X TTM Spending (-2 month over month)
WR = 2.91%
August Savings Rate = 74.4%

Activity
walked - 158 miles
Ran - 7 times for a total of 13.9 miles
MTB - 4 times for a total of 57.3 miles
Weight lifting - 12 times
Weight - 214.7 lbs, 7 day average up .6 lbs for August, which is the smallest gain in a long time (+2.6 in July, +8 in June)

Any loss in September will be a small win :)

Lucky C
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Re: Semi-ERE Year 3 - Wanderlust Prevails

Post by Lucky C »

Thank you 2B1S and anesde!

After further research it seems like the Porto area is more ideal on paper for the combo of lower COL, purportedly being more laid back, and for climate. Looking at the Porto historical climate and then adding a few degrees C for climate change, it is the best climate I've seen for both current and future for a place we would actually want to live (developed, easy access, not an island). By comparison Barcelona and Valencia have very appealing climates now, but I expect the summer heat to be too much in the future along with drier conditions hurting Spanish agriculture. On the Porto side of the peninsula, they are already starting with plenty of rainfall year round and are not supposed to be hit nearly as hard by CC. So for these reasons it seems like the Porto area and Portugal in general could also be a great real estate investment for generational wealth as more people would want to move there than closer to the Mediterranean Sea.

Of course Lisbon seems more fun from a tourist perspective, but if we lived in the North, surely we would have plenty of opportunities for Lisbon trips to see it all over the years.

So for now that area seems like a good place to visit to research further in the event we want to drop everything and get outta here. The Golden Visa should be doable for us but would tie up a lot of investment money in Portuguese real estate or businesses which may not offer good returns, but hopefully as time goes on our NW will increase faster than Golden Visa requirements.

More likely, we would probably stay put here where family is close by and maybe migrate to Europe later in life when the kids are grown up. Ideally the kids will find Europe more appealing and we will be able to all go together. All I know now is that I want a backup plan and Portugal sounds like the right fit if I had to decide today.

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