White Belt's Military Journey to FI

[white belt]

Have you considered renting one out and trying living out of a van for two or three weeks? [...] It also never really hits price parity with just paying for a normal hotel room every time you travel, which makes it only really more convenient in terms of staying in places where there aren’t hotels (one of the main reasons climbers are like the main subgroup of people who actually live out of vans).

A full van build won’t hit price parity vs hotels for occasional trip use, but a ERE diy buildout of a daily driver (Honda element or even van that you actually use) definitely can. And potential yields from skills gained from the build— my understanding is there is still space in the market for van converters, for example, so potential side hustle hobby in new location after switching to the Reserves if the vanBuilding turns out funner than the vanlifing.

Don't wanna derail for too long in someone's journal, but the Element is a bit too small [...]. Normal family vans that could fit plywood sheets used to be the sweet spot IMO, but now they also seem to cost like 20k+ for the used ones with under 100k miles thanks to the ridiculous used car prices of the past three or four years.

To be clear, I’m talking about a DIY conversion of a daily driver to also serve as a weekender [stealth] camper. I don’t plan on full time van life; to start it would probably not be more than a few days, but I’d like a build that gives me the option to scale up for weeks at a time. I like having that optionality to be able to travel for work purposes (MTG tournaments, some part time work), excursions with DW (skiing, hiking, kayaking, camping etc), and haul things like building supplies or even larger trailers if needed for various web of goals projects. Stealth is important for my use cases on the east coast and in urban areas.

In terms of the specific vehicle, my original idea was to just convert my current Pontiac Vibe/Matrix. Although that might be the most economical short term, it does present some issues. For one, I’m hesitant to dump money into converting a vehicle that’s already >15 years old with 200k miles. The vehicle is very roomy for a hatchback, but it is probably too small to stealth camp for two people because essentially the entire space is taken up by a bed. A conversion could be possible with rain guards on the windows, possibly cutting a hole in the roof for a vent fan, and window covers. Space is limited but I could fit an extra battery if I had to. 4 seasons camping is possible without a heater and extra insulation if I’m roughing it, but probably not reasonable if DW is there too. Maybe I decide to go the extra mile and install a diesel heater with a diesel tank or get a gas heater and tap the main tank. Cooking and hygiene are going to be difficult (impossible) in that confined of a space. I’m guessing things like cutting a hole in the roof or drilling a hole in the gas tank will tank (no pun intended) the resale value, not that I care that much about it but it’s a consideration. All those steps (other than insulation) require as many labor hours as they would on a larger vehicle but with a worse end product for camper purposes.

The above thought process led me to consider other vehicles, primarily minivans. There are numerous examples on YouTube of minivan builds that can accommodate 2 people. I even found a Toyota Sienna build that someone outfitted with a (seated) indoor shower, kitchen, couch/bed, etc. The Transit Connect is another popular platform because of its large cargo space. In terms of pricing (used dealer, so slightly higher than private party), a used Dodge/Lincoln/Ford minivan that’s ~2015 with ~100k miles goes for around $10k, while more desirable/reliable Hondas and Toyotas go for $15k-$20k. Most get 22-25 MPG. As @Slevin points out, minivans have gotten expensive in the last few years, but so have all used cars. I bought my Vibe in 2016 for $4K (~10 years old, ~100k miles) and even if I adjusted for inflation, things are pricey today. For reference, I just checked and a 2015 Honda Fit with ~100k miles is ~$12k. 35 MPG but less cargo capacity than my current Vibe so not really feasible as a camper.

I was pretty settled on getting rid of the Vibe and replacing it with a minivan at some point next year, but then I discovered there is a 118” wheelbase version of the Promaster. These go for the same price range ($15-$20k for ~2015 ~100k miles) as Toyota/Honda minivans. A 118 Promaster is actually shorter in overall length than typical minivans but has a much greater cargo/camper capacity because of a taller, wider, and longer cargo area. Gas mileage is predictably a bit worse at ~20 MPG because of the beefier engine and chassis. It's the closest thing to an American kei van. See picture for reference (left is Dodge Grand Caravan with 121" WB, right is 118” Ram Promaster 1500):



The downside of the 118 Promaster is that the low roof means you only have 64-67” of interior height depending on floor/ceiling insulation. This is low for a fancier Promaster/Sprinter/Transit tall van build, but much higher than a minivan. I think for a weekender this is not much of an issue; DW will likely even be able to fully stand if I keep floor/ceiling insulation to a minimum. I will have to be bent over slightly, but I might add a skylight to be able to fully stand in a convertible shower area. The upside of a Promaster is that there is a plethora of DIY resources and materials for every amenity possible. I think the resale value of a converted Promaster would be higher than a converted minivan, although my understanding is that the resale value of any converted van isn’t amazing.

[white belt]

I hope you find some solace with the therapy and that you can switch jobs soon.

The first therapy session was pretty useless, but I will be switching jobs in the next 6 months regardless.

I think my Smart car conversion will prove most economical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuHtfWbNWuM

[chenda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuHtfWbNWuM

That's genius

[7Wannabe5]

@white belt:

Very cool.

[Slevin]

Agreed, The Promasters look like great vans, even if the headroom isn’t perfect. And like you said, tons of support for all the things you are trying to do since they are a popular van to convert. Side note: U-Haul usually rents out the longer version of the promaster van for like $30/day or something ridiculously cheap if you want to get a handle on how they feel / what driving one is like for several hours.

Only downsides are the mpg you mentioned, the size and how they drive (it’s a huge wide van with no rear view mirror), and that the sprinter type vans are no longer “stealthy campers” in any sense of the word, as they are mainstream enough to just be known as camper vans now. Tradesmen drive them around too though, so having some plumbing sign on the side might add to the stealthiness if you care about such things.

Seems like a lot more upside than downside IMO, especially if you are going to be buying a house somewhere and will need to do renovations / maintenance/ gardening projects / etc as big vans can haul a ton of stuff around too.

[Scott 2]

Given how disruptive shift work is, have you considered deferring as many big decisions as possible, until it is over? I imagine with 3-6 months to rebuild, you'll discover a different person. Maybe you can't know yourself until then? Could that make it easier to accept the uncertainty, if you simply cannot predict future White Belt?

I'm not saying counseling is the right answer for you, but I've been told it often takes several attempts. Finding a professional you click with is hard, as is learning to work together. There are a variety of therapeutic strategies as well. Making an attempt is significantly more time consuming than one session, with one person.

I'm very curious to see the path you follow post active duty military. I assume your background is in high demand, in some sectors. But that opportunity is competing with the ERE mindset. I anticipate good things in the future.

[mountainFrugal]

We have a 2015 Ford Transit 250 Hightop (same engine as base F150). I am 5' 10". We have 2 inches of hard foam in the floor and a small drop down cedar ceiling. I can comfortably stand up in there. Our friends that were hardcore van lifers had the high-top and convinced us. There is just so much space to cook, put on pants, take off pants, dance party, stretching after runs etc. We also left the back under the bed as a simple slide drawer for our bikes. The top of the bikes is just under the bedframe which I can sit-up in while on the bed. This drastically increases the hangout space in the van because your bed can double as a couch. The other space under the bed is flex space. We use it to haul things frequently (fire bricks last month). We remove the mattress and we can haul full sized plywood on the bed frame. Like @slevin's advice, we went to a dealer that had all the different models to test out. We then waited 6 months for the high-top to come on the market. They make more now and there seems to be a thriving used market. Either way, I look forward to seeing your build if you go through with it.

One thing to consider with the promasters (not sure if this would be an issue for you) is the flat stabilization bar in the rear part of the chassis. This can make doing moderate off roading with the van harder because your ground clearance is fixed lower across the bottom back wheels making rolling over a high point rock in the middle harder. Not having that has helped us navigate some washed out forest service roads a few times.

[white belt]

U-Haul usually rents out the longer version of the promaster van for like $30/day or something ridiculously cheap if you want to get a handle on how they feel / what driving one is like for several hours.

Only downsides are the mpg you mentioned, the size and how they drive (it’s a huge wide van with no rear view mirror), and that the sprinter type vans are no longer “stealthy campers” in any sense of the word, as they are mainstream enough to just be known as camper vans now. Tradesmen drive them around too though, so having some plumbing sign on the side might add to the stealthiness if you care about such things.

I have seen a few of the rental vans driving around and that is something I might explore, especially if they offer low roof Promasters (even with 136+ wheelbase) to give a feel of what it's like moving inside. Bob Wells has a current series of videos where he comes out financially ahead by flying to Alaska, renting a Uhaul van to live in for a few weeks, and buying supplies for a basic setup compared to what he'd spend driving his own vehicle up.

I'm not sure what geographic area you are, but my impression of east coast metro areas is that van life isn't really a thing for a variety of reasons. Areas are densely populated so parking in nature isn't a viable option, humid weather and large temperature swings make climate control much trickier, and I think the east coast culture is just less open minded to such things. In other words, no one outside the van life nerds ever pays attention to vans here. I see work vans all the time on my street, many without any signage, but I only notice them because I'm looking. The average house is well over $1 million on my street, but since this isn't California, no one looks at a van and thinks that someone is living in there. The average person is oblivious to it unless it's parked right outside their house for an extended period. Also a low roof van without solar panels or other exterior accoutrements will blend in much more than a tricked out tall Sprinter. I've heard of the fake sign trick from several stealth van Youtube channels and I'm sure it helps in areas with higher scrutiny.

Given how disruptive shift work is, have you considered deferring as many big decisions as possible, until it is over? I imagine with 3-6 months to rebuild, you'll discover a different person. Maybe you can't know yourself until then? Could that make it easier to accept the uncertainty, if you simply cannot predict future White Belt?

A lot of this van planning is just daydreaming for now. Although I think I have an (at times unhealthy) propensity for research and optimization, most of my van planning has happened at work so the opportunity cost is little. Realistically, with everything happening in the next 6 months, I wouldn't even purchase a van until summer at the earliest. There's the wedding, honeymoon, selling DW's house, relocating to new city, potentially buying new house, etc that all needs to settle down first before embarking on a van project.

My strategy for uncertainty is more akin to establishing bridges/offramps from my current life to my future life. This is also in alignment with advice offered to transitioning service members. Staying in the Reserves is one such bridge to smooth the transition. Developing my part-time business is another. I think I will do better with some structure rather than just falling into the abyss of having unlimited unstructured time at the same time everything in my world is changing. In other words, I think my first year of transition will look a lot more like semi-ERE than traditional FIRE.

One thing to consider with the promasters (not sure if this would be an issue for you) is the flat stabilization bar in the rear part of the chassis. This can make doing moderate off roading with the van harder because your ground clearance is fixed lower across the bottom back wheels making rolling over a high point rock in the middle harder. Not having that has helped us navigate some washed out forest service roads a few times.

I'm not too concerned about off roading with my use case. In theory that could become an issue if I'm taking the van hunting in winter months on rough roads, but I expect to have to walk in a lot to find the good hunting spots on public land regardless because every [fat] hunter has a 4x4 pickup and does not want to walk miles from their vehicle through rough terrain.

In terms of the interior layout, for those who like to watch such things, this is similar to the layout I'd like to go with for the Promaster. Note that this version has the hi top and 2 more feet of cargo length, but the overall idea still works: https://youtu.be/rTsh5TatKho?si=BzHIPesUCWLp5QMC&t=104

In particular, I think the L shaped couch with murphy bed takes the most advantage of the unusually wide Promaster. The 118" WB Promaster has a load bed length of 105 inches, which means I get ~75 inches of length for the murphy bed and still have ~30 inches for the U shaped multifunctional space in the back. Instead of just a dedicated kitchen, I envision a dinette space with counter tops that can fold down over the seats, which can also convert into a single guest bed if needed. How to construct something like that and still be able to use the back as a cargo van when needed is a future me problem. I don't plan on going crazy with butcher blocks and hardwood paneling but will come up with some lightweight solutions that fit DW's aesthetic preference. I actually might just opt for marine fabric directly on top of rigid insulation panels for the walls/roof and just use the wall/roof ribs as mounting points, but I haven't gotten far enough to finalize such details.

[mountainFrugal]

...Bob Wells has a current series of videos where he comes out financially ahead by flying to Alaska, renting a Uhaul van to live in for a few weeks, and buying supplies for a basic setup compared to what he'd spend driving his own vehicle up.

...
In terms of the interior layout, for those who like to watch such things, this is similar to the layout I'd like to go with for the Promaster. Note that this version has the hi top and 2 more feet of cargo length, but the overall idea still works: https://youtu.be/rTsh5TatKho?si=BzHIPesUCWLp5QMC&t=104

We were going to go to Northern BC for our honeymoon earlier, but decided against it just for fuel and ferry costs alone. We also know a number of camping spots along the route we actually took throughout the desert southwest. It does not surprise me that you could make that work in Alaska.

This layout is well designed with the Murphy bed. It is also really easy to pull down the bed. Ease of transitioning into sleeping mode is a good thing in our experience.