Marijuana & Health

[Spartan_Warrior]

Also, the world already has enough people with high testosterone levels and too much ambition, so pot use passes muster on the "What if more people did it?" test in my book.

Are there studies that show a decrease in serum testosterone, either total or available, in humans? This pretty much sums up my understanding of the science and fully encompasses any evidence I've seen posted here: http://www.anabolicmen.com/cannabis-testosterone/

Again, rats and in-vitro cells. Studies with contradictory conclusions. Impacts that are negligible and reversible. Et cetera.

If it's just anecdotes from there, well... like I said, we all have our anecdotes. One of my personal favorites was that time in college when I smoked daily, made the President's List (4.0 GPA) for three consecutive semesters, and was squatting twice my bodyweight at 12% bodyfat.

There are plenty of people with high testosterone and high ambition. Some of them have also smoked weed. Ask Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps.

[BRUTE]

brute is no doctor, but has heard many times that not eating red meat and animal fats causes decrease in serum testosterone. so arguably vegetarianism is the greater threat to manhood than weed.

Spartan_Warrior:
http://welshcouncil.org.uk/english/dangerlist.html

this list released by the UK government claims indeed that both alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than cannabis.

[Sclass]

If it's just anecdotes from there, well... like I said, we all have our anecdotes. One of my personal favorites was that time in college when I smoked daily, made the President's List (4.0 GPA) for three consecutive semesters, and was squatting twice my bodyweight at 12% bodyfat.

You're right. This made me realize how ridiculous my small number of anecdotes sound.

There is a lot of variability out there. My home grown weed had a lot of Indica crossed into it to make it easy to grow under lights. Compared to a good Sativa it's apples and oranges again. It's like using a different drug.

Then there's the variability in personalities.

[Ego]

brute is no doctor, but has heard many times that not eating red meat and animal fats causes decrease in serum testosterone. so arguably vegetarianism is the greater threat to manhood than weed.

Nope. The opposite is true. Plant based eaters have higher levels of testosterone yet lower cancer rates because they do a better job of dealing with IGF-1.

https://youtu.be/BqkwPL0mSGw?t=1m24s

It might be wise to question whether meat/eggs/dairy is worse than weed because the dioxins in meat cause a decrease in T.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-i ... naturally/

Toxic substances called dioxins have been shown to interfere with the male reproductive system, including production of testosterone. While concentrated sources of dioxins include Agent Orange (which I’m sure you’re already avoiding), we obtain most of our dietary dioxins through conventionally-raised animal products, especially animal fats and dairy (dioxins accumulate in fat). If you’re going to be eating fatty cuts of meat or using dairy, try to go for pastured, grass-fed animals to reduce your exposure and lessen the negative impact on your testosterone levels.

But marijuana is pretty bad in this regard too....

http://www.medicaldaily.com/effects-mar ... ity-350864

If the men admitted to taking drugs, they were asked how often on a scale from no use, to once a week, and more than once a week. The researchers then collected the semen samples to measure their sperm counts and concentrations.

The findings revealed about 45 percent of the participants reported smoking pot in the past three months. About 10 percent had used marijuana as well as recreational drugs during this time. Those who admitted to regularly smoking pot had a sperm count that was 29 percent lower than those who reported lighter use or didn’t smoke at all. Meanwhile, men who used other recreational drugs alongside marijuana had sperm counts reduced by 55 percent and sperm concentrations reduced by 52 percent.

[BRUTE]

Nope. The opposite is true. Plant based eaters have higher levels of testosterone yet lower cancer rates because they do a better job of dealing with IGF-1.

just to also have quoted some website, let brute post this link:
http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/quest ... one-levels

[steveo73]

there is not much reliable science confirming negative impacts; the science that is available lends me to believe that occasional recreational use of cannabis is about the least deleterious method of obtaining a buzz (except maybe caffeine*).

I think that this is the problem. There really isn't any reliable science or maybe better put from my perspective I don't believe that there is any reliable science. From my experience coffee has less of an effect on you than marijuana but it's a close enough call. I think coffee though has been proven to be healthy for you. Marijuana doesn't have the research on it to confirm to me if it is harmful or non-harmful.

I drink alcohol but it's such a strong drug. I was drunk last weekend. It really hits my body a day or so after the event. I love it but I just don't feel comfortable getting that buzz off it.

[7Wannabe5]

Spartan Warrior said: If it's just anecdotes from there, well... like I said, we all have our anecdotes. One of my personal favorites was that time in college when I smoked daily, made the President's List (4.0 GPA) for three consecutive semesters, and was squatting twice my bodyweight at 12% bodyfat.

I am well aware of the fact that many people whose natural tendency is towards being VERY ambitious, testosterone-driven, jacked-up, Type 1 etc. are drawn to pot use. I also know that there are bred varieties of marijuana known for having a more brightening, energizing effect like testosterone rather than the opposite. I think that people who have the ENTJ or ESTJ personality types or natural chemical make-up may be well served by choosing pot as their one vice of choice. Definitely these types are better off choosing pot than alcohol. I know men of these types who resumed the use of pot and started supplementing with testosterone as they experienced the effects of aging in order to continue feeling like they used to feel.

I guess the main suggestion I am trying to make in annoying maternal mode is that over the long run you will likely find yourself best served if you do all of the "natural" or behavioral practices you can before you add the "drug." For instance, I am the sort of absent-minded, dopey, languid type who only loses her temper maybe twice a year and I can drink a pot of coffee with little ill effect and only minor gain of edge, but I am better served if I am also engaged in baseline daily practice of regular exercise to increase my vigor and reduction of carbohydrate intake.

Also, although it is true that I have heard repeated anecdotes from variety of female friends over many decades indicative of correlation of pot use with lack of sexual performance, upon reflection I have decided that my anecdote-acquisition may be severely biased by the fact that my female friendship circle over these many decades has primarily consisted of the sort of girl/woman likely to get herself all jacked up on coffee and chocolate and then jump her poor boyfriend who was just trying to get stoned, relax and watch some Star Trek or basketball, and then flounce off in a huff when he says "Babe, you are blocking the screen." YMMV

[Spartan_Warrior]

But marijuana is pretty bad in this regard too....

http://www.medicaldaily.com/effects-mar ... ity-350864

If the men admitted to taking drugs, they were asked how often on a scale from no use, to once a week, and more than once a week. The researchers then collected the semen samples to measure their sperm counts and concentrations.

The findings revealed about 45 percent of the participants reported smoking pot in the past three months. About 10 percent had used marijuana as well as recreational drugs during this time. Those who admitted to regularly smoking pot had a sperm count that was 29 percent lower than those who reported lighter use or didn’t smoke at all. Meanwhile, men who used other recreational drugs alongside marijuana had sperm counts reduced by 55 percent and sperm concentrations reduced by 52 percent.

IMO, from what I can tell by the abstract and that article's summary, this was a slightly more valid study (in the sense of measuring what it seeks to measure) than the others posted here, but still flawed as there is no known baseline for either the study or control group to account for other confounding variables and existing differences in the populations. It also does not separate the large confounding variable that is the effect of smoke inhalation itself from the effect of cannabinoids. Inhalation of tobacco smoke has also been shown to decrease sperm count around the order of 20%: (http://yourfertility.org.au/for-men/smoking)

Also, not to keep banging this drum, because it really is a forced comparison, but drinking just one cup of coffee per day has been shown to increase infertility risk in women by 55%: http://andreasschwerte.com/coffee-infer ... pregnancy/ (I can't find the Yale study online, but this references it.)

@BRUTE: That is an interesting list, thanks. I'm not that familiar with ecstasy but I'm surprised to see it below both cannabis and LSD. It says they are factoring in "social harm" so I imagine they are considering how widespread use/abuse is in the UK, as well.

I noticed they pointed out the increased risk of schizophrenia from cannabis use, which is something I don't think has been mentioned in this thread. That's a more legitimate concern IMO than the testosterone stuff. If you have a family history of mental illness, might be best to avoid anything psychoactive.

On the other hand, without digging up the studies myself, I believe cannabis has been shown to reduce the risk for Alzheimer's (IIRC, something to do with increasing the number of connections across the corpus callosum and thickening the myelin sheaths that otherwise deteriorate as the disease progresses).

@Sclass: It's true, there is a lot of variability both in strain potency and individual tolerance. And I should admit that in my experience, I don't seem as sensitive to cannabis as some; many times I was called "one of those functional stoners".

(I miss the old forum's smoking pimp emoticon right about now.)

[steveo73]

I noticed they pointed out the increased risk of schizophrenia from cannabis use, which is something I don't think has been mentioned in this thread. That's a more legitimate concern IMO than the testosterone stuff. If you have a family history of mental illness, might be best to avoid anything psychoactive.

This is an interesting one and I'm not sold on it. I have a friend who is schizophrenic. He smoked a lot less pot than most of my friends. His drug of choice was alcohol.

I think what happens is that people develop schizophrenia in their early 20's or so and that is also a time when they may experiment with marijuana. It doesn't mean that marijuana has anything at all to do with causing schizophrenia.

[Dragline]

I have a sibling that resembles this remark. No, marijuana does not cause schizophrenia, but it does make it a hell of a lot worse.

[bryan]

Don't have much to add.. though it certainly wasn't healthy for my mental state for the length of time a couple undercover NSA agents were interrogating me

Saving my first use of powerful psychoactive drugs for when I really feel the need for some sort of amplification.

Would be nice to get a safer/healthier/cheaper alcohol buzz.

[steveo73]

I have a sibling that resembles this remark. No, marijuana does not cause schizophrenia, but it does make it a hell of a lot worse.

I would state with my friend that is schizophrenic that alcohol makes things a whole lot worse. I should add that alcohol just makes him a whole lot worse. He gets aggressive and has gotten into fights doing alcohol as well.

I've smoked heaps of marijuana and I know plenty of people that do. I've never seen it cause schizophrenia. My friend that has schizophrenia has a family history of mental illnesses.

Maybe marijuana can cause problems. I don't know. I'm just skeptical based on the anecdotal evidence that I have seen.

[7Wannabe5]

In the truth is stranger and funnier than fiction category. Some of you may be happy to learn that I was caused to suffer for the strong stance I took on this issue/thread, because I had a date last night with a very attractive man who currently makes his living doing architectural design of medical marijuana dispensaries and grow facilities. The fact that he was also wearing a classic AC/DC t-shirt offered further confirmation of his likely stance/practice. So, I was not very well able to enjoy my dinner because I was trying too hard to reverse my previous posture, and it is also possible that because I am weak, weak, weak, I kind of sort of half agreed to go out with him again. Clearly, I am not fit to remain member of a reputable salon/forum such as this.

[BRUTE]

The fundamental question for me is whether I can allow myself to be impaired. That has been a big no for most of my adult life, but if you can answer yes to that question, and do things in relative moderation, then enjoy yourself.

"impaired" implies that there is one state of being that is best for all situations, and any deviation from it is a negative. this is not brute's experience with life, states, and drugs.

do clothes impair humans? glasses? helmets? hair cuts?

[BRUTE]

sleep is very impairing for most humans, but there's a use for it. brute isn't arguing that nobody ever got hurt while on alcohol. brute is arguing that there's a time and place for almost anything.

[7Wannabe5]

BRUTE said:do clothes impair humans? glasses? helmets? hair cuts?

http://www.wikiart.org/en/henri-fantin- ... -nu-209052

[BRUTE]

brute is currently reading "drugs without the hot air" by a British psychopharmacologist, David Nutt. he was fired from his government drug advisory job when he calculated and published that riding horses for sport is more dangerous than taking ecstasy (1 hour of horse riding by far causes more death and damages on average than taking 1 ecstasy pill). he worked on the "drugs sorted by danger" scale that brute linked to a while back.

there is an interesting sidebar about marijuana and schizophrenia in the book. asked to study this by the British government, Nutt found that while marijuana use correlates with schizophrenia, it's not clear which way the causality goes. it seems while cannabis use increases some of the bad effects of schizophrenia (psychosis, this is after all the goal of most stoners), it also decreases some of the effects (anxiety). it might also be that there's a common cause for liking marijuana and being susceptible to schizophrenia. while marijuana use and average potency has drastically gone up over the last decades, cases of schizophrenia have gone done in the UK data he sampled.

also, while there is a correlation between schizophrenia and cannabis use, it's not that strong. smoking marijuana increases likelihood of psychosis-like episodes by 2.6x, whereas smoking tobacco increases likelihood of lung cancer by 20x.

[MZMpac]

Longtime cannabis user here.

Off and on for the last 12 years, with a 2 year abstinence during grad school. At my peak it was 1-2 x a day for years with minimal to no breaks, and now it's about 1-2 x a week.

I would say, slowly, I am growing out of it. It is still my preferred substance. I dislike etOH, always have, even during my college drinking days. I never got people's obsession with it. I think it is a far more destructive drug.

I agree with earlier comments about amotivational syndrome; this seems to be a direct relationship. I cant do it as much as I used to...I have decisions to make and too many things to remember. It also hamstrings me socially, so it's strictly an at-home indulgence.

Like any drug, the more we study it in controlled trials and cohorts the more we will learn. Some data will be good, some bad, but overall I consider it more on the benign end of the spectrum. The people who are categorically against it usually have some sort of emotionally-weighted value judgment against pot users. The people who support it unequivocally are usually, of course, potheads.

[BRUTE]

I dislike etOH, always have, even during my college drinking days. I never got people's obsession with it. I think it is a far more destructive drug.

statistics agree: tens of thousands of humans die every year under the influence of alcohol, and tens of thousands more are hurt by those under the influence of alcohol.

the number of humans dead due to cannabis "abuse" is roughly 0.

there is really no legitimate reason for cannabis prohibition except lobbying by big pharma. it's safe, it's cheap, it makes humans more peaceful.

[enigmaT120]

I thought there was some racist reason, too. But I can't remember what, unless you want to try to define Rastafarians (religion) as a race.