Early Retirement Extreme Forums

BRUTE wrote:wow, amazing news: correlation doesn't equal causation.

in brute's opinion, any study that merely detects correlation should be immediately disqualified from "x does y". it's an interesting sign if 90% of humans who drink wine beat their wives, but unless there's been a mechanism clearly demonstrated, nothing can be claimed.

C'mon, it's only correlation that tells me I need sex 5 or more days per week to reduce my risk of prostate cancer. It could just as easily mean that men who manage to do that have healthy prostates to begin with.

And what is with the strange love of smoking that so many lung cancer-prone people have?

In the research related to lifestyle nothing else is possible in terms of design except for correlation inferences. Take smoking, it was never a causation, that smoking causes cancer in humans. But the volume and the depth of the research digested into numerous meta-analyses created the evidence of the highest level. You either accept these rules of the game or just don't talk about lifestyle research at all.

CECTPA wrote:In the research related to lifestyle nothing else is possible in terms of design except for correlation inferences. Take smoking, it was never a causation, that smoking causes cancer in humans. But the volume and the depth of the research digested into numerous meta-analyses created the evidence of the highest level. You either accept these rules of the game or just don't talk about lifestyle research at all.

I agree with you. It's all we can go on. Past a certain point it's also pretty accurate or at least accurate enough to guide your decisions.

My father in law is one of those types who should probably have been a decade ago. He is an expat from Dublin, and his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

Hopefully those in favor of "I'll enjoy my super-unhealthy lifestyle because life is so short" sign a "Do not resuscitate" order and and a living will. Our Long Term Care unit is full of those who didn't. Is being a vegetable for 10+ years a part of the plan?

@CECTPA No I don't think that is part of the plan. He was very ill a few years back, and some would have pulled the plug, but he got through and has had years of high quality life since. So one does need to be careful.

Did wrote:..... his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

'

That's exactly why I keep pushing this. Pleasures like alcohol are entirely learned behaviors. We have a choice. He learned very early in life to find joy in drinking with his buddies and telling stories. He could have just as easily learned to find pleasure in more healthy activities. He could meet friends over tea or coffee rather than alcohol. At my library there is a group of Hindu Indian guys who meet each morning to discuss Indian politics and argue over who gets to read which section of the newspaper first.

In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

Ego said: In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

True. That's why I'm glad I lost my virginity at 15.

Did wrote:He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage.

unfortunately, the dichotomy of living well OR living long is usually false. the biggest killers (at least in the west) are heart disease, lung problems, diabetes, and stroke. they usually lead to very dramatic decreases in quality of life before they kill. sometimes decades before they kill. same is likely true for alcoholism.

I had a hard-living, hard-drinking uncle who greatly enjoyed his life and I'm sure would have agreed "he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage".

He suffered a stroke and was bedridden for 10 years before he died, during which time he had both legs amputated, was unable to speak coherently, and could do nothing except listen to audio books if somebody was kind enough to play them for him.

I agree with Brute, "the dichotomy of living well OR living long is usually false".

Ego wrote:

Did wrote:..... his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

'

That's exactly why I keep pushing this. Pleasures like alcohol are entirely learned behaviors. We have a choice. He learned very early in life to find joy in drinking with his buddies and telling stories. He could have just as easily learned to find pleasure in more healthy activities. He could meet friends over tea or coffee rather than alcohol. At my library there is a group of Hindu Indian guys who meet each morning to discuss Indian politics and argue over who gets to read which section of the newspaper first.

In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

This is a typical scenario and it's also typical that the vice turns into something that is what is important to living a good life. I think that you have to look for meaning in doing stuff that is good for you.

I hope someone plays me audiobooks.

Actually I would prefer harder drugs and hookers. I'm serious. Why do retirement villages have 70s concerts?

yea, constipation over cirrhosis of the liver any day!

@brute I meant in a post disaster/end of life situation. So I guess I will have both.

I never could get into drinking. I tried it in undergrad and grad school, but never took to it. Once, in college, my sensei asked me what I did to unwind. I said martial arts. He told me to try drinking a beer a day. I tried drinking a hard apple cider a day. It was relaxing, but I still didn't take to it.

Now I just drink cocktails socially. Unless I'm on a cruise, then I drink cocktails/frozen drinks throughout the day, if I catch a free drink package. If not, then I don't drink.

Had my first hangover at 13. After getting drunk like that and seeing what it did to my dad, I stopped drinking so much. I accidentally drank too much several times and couldn't drive, play with lovers, it didn't feel good for me and wasn't worth the mild socially relaxing effects. Now I barely drink, I don't like being less aware and less sharp.

My real challenge was in smoking flowers. I binged on those all day every day for the better part of a decade. They felt relaxing, had a social effect, my version of many people's alcohol. Tried moderating many times, always slipped back into old patterns. Now I'm sober almost 7 weeks and very happy I let it go.

What flowers? Opium?

No, think medical herbs in California.

Less harmful than most other things but using anything in a dependent manner detracts from life quality. I've focused on replacing it with meditating, exercising, and connecting to people.

opium has medical purposes

When I was a kid, I saw a scientist on PBS say he didn't drink or do drugs because he never wanted to be unaware of his surroundings, or reality. That pretty much stuck with me. Now I have a health reason of why I don't do drugs, but that main reason still holds true.