Alcohol moderation

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steveo73
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by steveo73 »

Ego - thanks for that. I really like seeing facts regarding health.

Did
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Did »

I understand alcohol does cause cancer but in all but the most obscene levels of consumption overall morality is reduced due to the cardiovascular protective effect. To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.

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jennypenny
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by jennypenny »

Did wrote:To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.
especially for the people around me :P


I wonder if mass-produced products, specifically beer and wine, are unhealthy compared with homebrew varieties. Does it matter? Probably not with expensive liquor and wine, but I'm curious about the cheaper stuff because processed food is worse than 'real' food. Is a Bud Light worse for you than a homebrew? I have no idea.

I also wonder if alcohol was ok when we (the collective 'we') weren't so metabolically damaged. Maybe our thin/fit grandparents could tolerate alcohol better than our current glucose-drenched bodies.

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Ego
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Ego »

Did wrote:To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.
People want to drink so they want to believe this is true. Unfortunately, that is not what the (non-industry) experts are finding. We have a good friend, a heavy drinker our age, who just went through a bout of breast cancer and who still believes what you said above. Sadly, alcohol is very addictive and so it encourages a very strong motivated reasoning.

Did
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Did »

No doubt you could be one of the unlucky ones and have alcohol cause your death with moderate drinking. But many studies do show overall a reduction in mortality.

Did
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Did »

@jp I don't know either ! I think coming from a drinking race helps with consumption.

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Ego
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Ego »

Did wrote:But many studies do show overall a reduction in mortality.
I am going to continue to challenge this every time you propose it because it is a damaging misconception. When those studies were corrected for the "Sick-quitters", the people who no longer drank because they were ill, the reduction in mortality disappears.

Papers of Indenture
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Papers of Indenture »

Ego wrote:
Did wrote:But many studies do show overall a reduction in mortality.
I am going to continue to challenge this every time you propose it because it is a damaging misconception. When those studies were corrected for the "Sick-quitters", the people who no longer drank because they were ill, the reduction in mortality disappears.
Yup. The old red wine study is dead in the water.

Papers of Indenture
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Papers of Indenture »

I drink 1 night every week. Usually Friday or Saturday. My problem is that it usually involves 8 to sometimes 10 drinks....not one or two. I have no idea if this is worse than having one or two drinks every single night. I would imagine that my habit is worse.

Dragline
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Dragline »

Papers of Indenture wrote:
Yup. The old red wine study is dead in the water.

Don't you mean "dead on the vine"? :lol:

Did
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Did »

Given there are hundreds of studies on the heart benefits of moderate consumption of alcohol I would be interested in any reliable studies that overturn this. Reports on cancer increase are not new but the heart benefits are seen as reducing overall mortality as I said.

BRUTE
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by BRUTE »

Did wrote: To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.
well since the risk of death is already 100% for humans..

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Ego
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Ego »

Did wrote:Given there are hundreds of studies on the heart benefits of moderate consumption of alcohol I would be interested in any reliable studies that overturn this. Reports on cancer increase are not new but the heart benefits are seen as reducing overall mortality as I said.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/alcohol-con ... nce-379001

According to the new analysis, many of the 87 studies Stockwell's team reviewed tying moderate drinking to a healthier life were flawed, “with designs suggesting benefits where there were likely none,” they wrote. These inaccuracies stem from how studies defined “abstainers,” or people who don’t consume alcohol.

Studies focused on this topic typically compared moderate drinkers, or those who have up to two drinks daily, with abstainers. The issue is that the abstainer groups can include people who have had to abstain from drinking because of their poor health. It goes without saying that people who are not healthy tend to have a shorter lifespan, especially if they are suffering from a serious chronic condition. This could mean that people in the abstainer group are more likely to die sooner and have deteriorating health, making it appear as though alcohol is extending the lifespan of moderate drinkers and making them healthier.

MZMpac
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by MZMpac »

Did wrote:I understand alcohol does cause cancer but in all but the most obscene levels of consumption overall morality is reduced due to the cardiovascular protective effect. To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.
The protective effect is overstated. There is essentially a ton of bias and confounding variables in these studies, not to mention the ever-present unreliability of self-reported data.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 052.x/full

People like to drink and have an inherent bias towards alcohol. Some more than others. It is a social substance, a relaxation substance, and a sexual accelerant (in moderate doses).

I hate it when people pull the "I'm Irish/Italian/German/etc" card to explain their level of drinking, or any vice for that matter. It has nothing to do with your ethnic heritage; rather it has everything to do with your immediate social influences.

BRUTE
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by BRUTE »

wow, amazing news: correlation doesn't equal causation.

in brute's opinion, any study that merely detects correlation should be immediately disqualified from "x does y". it's an interesting sign if 90% of humans who drink wine beat their wives, but unless there's been a mechanism clearly demonstrated, nothing can be claimed.

MZMpac
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by MZMpac »

It's funny because correlational studies are what most frequently make the media and go viral in people's quotes. Even big, vaunted journals like NEJM publish pure correlation and it somehow gets translated as 'x does y'.

Did
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by Did »

Thanks. Looks like the first article, from 2009, says we should look closer. The second, which is recent, quotes 87 studies that support moderate drinking, and even says in its first sentence that the science falls this way. It then goes on to question whether these 87 studies (some of many) have been properly conducted. At the least, there is evidence both ways.

Certainly nobody is being foolish on the current evidence for having a glass of wine regularly. It may even be helping. The question is whether or not you actually drink like that or are kidding yourself. I regularly don't, if I am honest, hence this thread.

chicago81
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by chicago81 »

I used to drink far more than I do now. In my younger years, I went through a period of time where I probably drank a little too much. Now I will have one drink in an evening maybe once or twice per week.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have drank less. It would have allowed me to save even more money. I have no idea how much money I wasted on it. Probably wasn't too great for my health either.

enigmaT120
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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by enigmaT120 »

Did wrote:I understand alcohol does cause cancer but in all but the most obscene levels of consumption overall morality is reduced due to the cardiovascular protective effect. To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.
Sweet typo.

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Re: Alcohol moderation

Post by jacob »

:lol:

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