Lemon's Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Well I briefly introduced myself in the Introduce Yourself Section and have now got round to actually making a journal!

Looking at my spending for the last 9 months and using that as a base I worked out the current approximate costings. This is all starting from when my first Junior Doctor Job starts In August when I will be in new accommodation in a new city and finally earning.

Non Housing costs: ~£3500/yr
Housing Costs: ~£3500/yr

I am pretty lucky on this one as the housing cost is only able to be that low because I can live in hospital accommodation. This means going forward I am unlikely to be able to get it quite the low as easily.

Income after tax + pension: ~£22000/yr

So an effective savings rate of 68% Excluding the pension (which pushes it to ~75%). The fact my pay will go up fairly linearly year on year means I am not looking at particularly long to FI (7ish years without pay rises) even though I currently only have £12k assets. I feel incredibly lucky to be in this situation.

This is all down to finding ERE/MMM while still being in university (just - I found it all about 10 months ago) and having it all 'click' with pretty much how I felt before but lacking any sort of direction. So I haven't had time to pick up many expensive consumerist tastes.

I have always tended towards the generalist specialties within medicine despite them being 'looked down on' by most of my peers and supervisors who in particular view general practice as the route of failures.
My first set of rotations set me up perfectly for this sort of career however as well as being useful if I decide to do more adventurous stuff such as expedition or ship medicine. Also have just finished an elective placement at a dive chamber so going into hyperbaric medicine (as a sub specialty in addition to general practice) is something I am now more seriously contemplating (especially as it seems that this sort of extreme physiology based position helps get into being medical help for expeditions - for fairly obvious reasons).

Currently I enjoy medicine too much to think I will give it up at FI but hitting/getting close to the number would mean I can take more risks/go part time and not have to care at all about the career treadmill that I hate. But extra options are seldom a bad thing in these things.

In terms of alternative revenue streams I really enjoy SCUBA diving and getting the qualifications to allow me to teach/be a guide commercially is something I have considered as fun thing to do, but the expense isn't really worth it at the moment, I will just have to enjoy being a somewhat tourist diver. Beyond this I would very much like to get back into gardening, but I need one in order to do that/an allotment. Another option is sailing which I will be able to take up again as I am moving to the coast!

I do have some slight concerns with my partner not being very ERE. He is getting better though and does understand my position, just has no desire right now to emulate it. He is however on board largely with not having lifestyle inflation. With a few exceptions being because his work is in london if that remains the same being stuck with higher housing costs long term. Although it will be a long distance relationship for 2 years so I am going to have to take it as it comes (I hope it works out but experience from LDRs leaves me weary). It also means if I decide to travel solace FI then if we have worked through these 2 years that is far less likely to be an issue.

It is going to be an interesting journey, no doubt in a month and a bit when I start my first job and it all really kicks off I will see if I can stick to the plan. I think/hope I will be able to.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

DutchGirl
Posts: 1644
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by DutchGirl »

Hey Crazylemon,

I read your introduction post and this one. Nice to see you. I hope you'll like your job and can grow into a job that you enjoy a lot. And also hopefully soon you'll have the freedom to accept a job or switch to a different one or quit a job, etc.

Bye for now (I'm off to bed now, it's late here in the NL).

I'm looking forward to your updates.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

@DutchGirl

Sorry for not updating, hopefully this will now be more regular now that I have started work. Also I didn't seem to get an alert for your post...

I now have my rota for the next 4 months. It is not sociable. At all. This has just cemented my desire to get out of the work place as fast as possible. In particular that it will mean nearly 2 months without seeing my partner which will be tough. My later rotations are largely the same (although one is much worse). We will see how I feel when the really work starts after induction next Wednesday.

But my extended holiday before this has taught me some things. I went on several different holidays. This included a cruise with my parents. While the scenery was beautiful (Norway) and I will remember that well I actually found that the fact everything is done for you frustrating/awkward and isn't how I would choose to do things. I would much prefer to visit and spend the time hiking/camping/whatever which would been far more rewarding.

Similar for a trip I did with the SCUBA club. As it was a guided trip we didn't have to do any research into the sites or tide planning. It was just turn up and dive. Again the scenery was fantastic. But I have enjoyed other trips where we have had to do all the planning, finding sites etc. ourselves. It is just so much more rewarding.

I will post a spending update probably in a month or so when I get an idea of how work has impacted on spending. My concern is that all of the juniors I will be living with in hospital accommodation (and thus natural companions) are all rather consumerist as far as I can see (already spent our first paycheque which is a month away style). I hope I can find some that have a least similar views. I think I am the only one with a bike though!
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Well. First month of work has now been completed. It has been a very steep learning curve which shows no sign of slowing down. This is good, if stressful at times. In general I have really enjoyed the job and have been surprised at how fast the day goes when you are constantly engaged!
The bad days having been on reflection, not actually all that bad.

Missing my partner but beyond that I get on with most of my colleagues. Most of them have already spent the first paycheque (which arrived today...) but my frugality hasn't been looked down upon at all, more interest in 'how do I do that' which I am of course happy to teach.

Some things have slid a bit (only exercising ~3-4 times a week etc.) but now I am more settled I can start getting back on track with that. I have managed to get out and read a few books from the library but most time free has been spent with portfolio research. Terrible internet does mean I waste less time on it!

Now down to the numbers:

Total Expenditure (Yr Est on 1month spending) ex rent: £2635.20
total rent: £3600
Total: £6235.20
Income post Tax: £26750
Savings rate ~77%

Gives me 6 years to retirement assuming no pay rise, which as I automatically have rises as I gain more experiences means realistically a year or so could be shaved off, possibly more. But then I don't think I will get as cheap rent ever again. Which could easily off set any rise and then some.

Would I retire in 6 years even if I could? I think unlikely at the moment. Drop hours possibly. Do something a bit different that runs the risk of career 'suicide' but is fun almost certainly. This includes everything form practising in other countries to working with MSF or BAS or ships. The joys of a medical degree being a pretty good passport.

This also doesn't include pension contributions into a DB scheme which would push the rate to 85% ish. So this is vaguely conservative and vague at this point anyway.

I feel generally optimistic about life and work in general and don't think I would like to be anywhere else right now!
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Well. Month 2 showed a slight drop in income (expected as there was a month and a week in the first one). Some spending crept up meaning a savings rate of 74% excluding the pensions contributions.

Interestingly with the pension for the year of work it would entitle me to ~£400 index linked +1.5% which even ignoring the +1.5% would take less than 17 years of earning to just have that be enough to live off. A pretty good insurance policy as I view it in addition to state pension. Combined if I worked for 8 years or so would be as much as my expenses are now. So I would just have to earn enough to survive to 70 or so.

Bits of the work now seem vastly more manageable. The contract 'negotiations are a bit of a downer at the moment although for me they largely don't mean to much as I don't live anywhere near a line where the cuts would do anything to me other than delay a theoretical leave date. It does make me want to consider other jobs though as it will bring in more of the stuff I don't like (long hours and not fun times) and has pretty much set me on not going into a specialty I would enjoy but would be completely screwed over in work/life balance (for those with no idea what this is about the UK government is currently messing with junior doctor contracts and none of us are very happy).



Made it to 1 year with my partner as well so yay :D Now he is back from Canada there is less time between meetings which is very nice.

I also met up with a few people from MMM in london. Very nice to have a conversation where you can spend the entire time being frank about things rather than having to only show select elements of world views.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

The last few weeks have be tough. Not from a spending perspective but my job. I have been dealing with rather too many dying patients. My current rotation does not normally include dying patients. Especially when this is protracted. But it happens from time to time and the die have been such that I have been the junior at the coalface when it happens this time. I haven't caused any of these deaths, I have no doubt I and the rest of the team did what they could. But you cannot win every time. Sometimes you run out of useful tools. Palliation is sometimes the only one left, and crucial to get right.

Previously as a student I have seen sick people, dead people and even some dying patients. But only briefly. Never the process, or the discussions with family. Overall the experience has been tough but worthwhile. It has made me a better doctor. I also feel honoured my Senior felt comfortable letting me have those long dark conversations with relatives when it was clear he wasn't going to be able to do so himself promptly.

The difficult thing has been the lack of time to reflect. I am 6 days in to a 12 day stretch, most of those being 12 1/2 hour shifts. But I have, and will do so more. I need to know where I am going heading forward.


The ERE side of things is on the back burner for now as a result. Ticking over as over the previous few months. Another month closer to being able to leave if I want to.

heyhey
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:17 pm
Location: Herts UK

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by heyhey »

That sounds so tough. I worked in a (UK) hospital for a while and although I was only on the admin side, it was very stressful just having to tell people they had a year to wait for whatever operation. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have the conversation with the person or family where there was no hope at all. I know I felt I had to keep part of myself held back, in order not to be completely swallowed up. I hope you can do the same.

DutchGirl
Posts: 1644
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by DutchGirl »

That sounds pretty rough, Crazylemon. And yes, it'll make you a better doctor. You're improving certain skills that will be very useful to yourself and to your patients later on. But still, it's a lot to take in. I hope the remaining shifts will be easier.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

@heyhey Yes I know the exact feeling. You can't let everything be seen. You can't let them know that if you were the person in charge of the relatives care you might do things slightly differently. But at the same time you can't shut it all out. Well at least I can't. I then feel like I am not treating them as the human being they are.

@DutchGirl. Thanks. Today has been better. Well, less solemn. Slightly scary in that I had to manage a rather complicated unwell patient for about an hour without any support. But they are fine, the plan is in place and the night team are aware.
Immensely satisfying thinking 'I can do this, I know what to do'. Rather than the first month where most of the time was spent in almost perpetual terror!


Such is the highs and lows of this job. On the whole, worthwhile though!
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Right. Well now 4 months into the job I feel reasonably settled where I am now and have actually had pretty stable expenditures month to month (other than a one off expense that won't be repeated, you can buy life membership only once!)

Spending for last month:

Groceries £57.16
Eating Out£3.85
Travel £88.10
Phone £7.50
Amazon £7.04
Other £15.00
Rent £300.00

Total £478.65

Giving me a savings rate of 77% not including my pension contributions. Which isn't too bad. Not much that I think I can cut there, groceries could probably be pushed to £50 by just being more efficient but when I am doing 12 solid days of work convenience has a habit of slipping in...Other than that I don't think there is much I can tackle other than travel but I am stuck there if I regularly want to be able to see my partner.

I have now finally attached my borrowed pannier rack to my bike. It makes carrying groceries so much more comfortable although I did forget it would alter the weight of the bike first time I tried to lift it up fully laden up some stairs without thinking and thus lost my balance. Live and learn!
Also have been gradually learning new recipes which is one of my favourite things to do along with starting to bake my own bread which is 1) cheaper and 2) more delicious. I do have to decide if it is worth buying a slow cooker or pressure cooker.
Fitness has been sadly treading water and other the cycling for transport and regularly swimming this has been rather neglected. I need to tackle this such that I am at least hitting 3/4 sessions of decent length a week. But never having been a particularly active person while I enjoy it now it does seem to become the first thing I drop.
I also need to actually talk to more of my friends, I know I am very bad for keeping in contact. Something else to work on...

Assets ~£21K

So assuming same expenditures and income would be FIRE in 5 and a bit years. However there are some major headwinds to this.

1) Rent. Currently I have a very good deal. This will end in August. I doubt I will do as well, I will try but I don't have too much hope to get anywhere close. Likely this will near double once you tack bills on top
2) Moving back to London. This long term I may need to do because of the job my partner has. I am trying to sell 'not living in london' as an idea. He is receptive to it but is in his industry rather trapped. As the more flexible partner I am likely to be the one to compromise on this. Making rent and even larger slice of my pay pie in all likelihood.
3) Buying a house. Obviously doing this will almost certainly delay FIRE because of the mad nature of UK property in the South East (See 2 for why that is not easy for me to avoid).
4) More profligate partner. Now he isn't some sort of spendthrift but well, he doesn't quite have the same excitement I do about not spending money.

On the plus side I am likely to year on year un more and more due to the nature of doctoring. So I do have some advantages.

One thing that has shocked me is just how fast the money piles up. 4 months ago I had about 12k. I have already manage to save a huge amount in not a lot of time. Just by not being stupid with money. I haven't felt like I have held back in any major way that has caused any distress. I think this in part comes down to never having been a massive fan of consumerism but also as people have previously mentioned being more skilled means needing less money to get the same result. I don't need to buy something I can do myself.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Looking through the other journals of people with student loans has reminded me of a somewhat moral dilemma I have. I also have student loans, but they don't really work like most loans but as an 'added tax' until they are paid off. And extra 9% income tax on anything earned over ~£15k. Making a Marginal tax rate of nearly 40%. Rising to 50% once earning £42K Ouch. Naturally making tax free savings all the more important!

I owe £42k and using basic back of envelop calculations on Earnings/Interest rates I would only have paid the balance by 2030. Meaning a high likelihood I would already have stopped working by then and would be earning well below the £15k bracket if at all. Especially as most Assets would be tax sheltered.

There is no incentive to pay these loans of fast as the APR is RPI/BofE base rate + 1% whichever is lower. So 0.9% now. That low rate is factored into back of pack calculations. Further to this the loan wipes at 30 yrs post graduation regardless of what I do.

So I have a dilemma. Assuming I stick to ERE or even just RE I am not going to pay off all these loans. But should I? I mean the government has structured them this way so the people who don't do well don't lose out too much. I don't have problem with minimising my tax but this feels different to an extent. Not that this money gets put back into students, students who start now have a worse deal than I had (unless they plan to ERE in which case they do even better as the threshold is higher) but I do feel grateful that the loans did allow me to not have to worry about money on usurious terms. But obviously £40k would add in effect well over an extra year of mandatory work to pay off...

On the job front my new rota is pretty much hell incarnate until Mid February. I have just got off working nights. Which are in some ways fun as there are no grown up doctors around nearby so you have to do what you think best to keep people going. Obviously you can still get hold of the (usually) if you need to. So a lot more learning happens. This swap to shift work has meant work is busier but there is no mission creep. You handover and go home ready to come back in 11 hours time. But not having weekends off and working over christmas Is going to suck a bit. The time off in between shifts/days during the week off have meant I have done slightly more adventurous cooking and started baking which is nice.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

peerifloori
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:11 pm

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by peerifloori »

Speaking as someone with a lot of student loans, my moral advice would be: do whatever. If I had the option to pay minimally and have my loans forgiven after 30 years, I might take it or I might not. My desire to pay off all my debt as quickly as possible doesn't have anything to do with moral reasons, I just want to be debt free with a burning passion.

What kind of doctoring do you do? General practice? Internal medicine? What kind of training do you get for end-of-life/palliative care type stuff?

Good luck with everything.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

In terms of doctoring I am currently on the 'foundation program' which everyone here does and is 6 4 month rotations through different specialties. Currently I am on Acute Medicine (Kinda internal med but we only deal with patients for 24-48 hrs, if they need longer than that they get sent to the relevant specialty). After that I need to pick my training scheme. Which will probably be General Practice with maybe some side work in something else as a special interest. I don't know yet. But the shorter training scheme which means 'peak' earnings faster and the ability to go part time faster. As a trainee the only way to go part time is either have a baby or be an olympian. Beyond that a very dim view is taken to the point you won't be funded. I don't want another 7 minimum years of full time after these 2 years!

And thank you.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

DutchGirl
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by DutchGirl »

I would pay it off as per the rules; and see where that takes you.

I wonder what you'll do once you've reached FI status. Will you never again earn a cent anymore? I'm not so sure of it. So if you do accidentally make more than 15k pounds in a year (for example because you have been doing some medical research that you thought was important, or because you wrote a book, or because you worked on a sailboat, whatever), then you'll be paying some more back, too.

So I guess I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Well wasn't working Christmas fun.

Actually Christmas day was fine. The 2 days after we the madness. Everyone who puts off going to hospital over christmas and so presents 24 hrs sicker.
Add in being short staffed for added fun. Although at least this time management 'got it' when they started to ask why the department was grounding to a halt after I explained we are 2 full doctors short on the rota and you have managed to get half a locum doctor. The realisation that just telling us to be fast was not going to work was great. They listened and apparently sorted it for the day after. The rest of the hospital being at home and so half the test we want being delayed. Plus the aforementioned really sick people, I had one patient who needed review 6 times given each review takes 15-30 minutes depending on what I do...meant busy busy busy.

Working 12 1/2 hour shifts makes it easy to save money though. Very little free time in the day to waste!

Looking forward to 4 days off at my parents from tomorrow.

The thing is, I actually like the work. Despite the conditions moral is actually pretty good. The department works well as a team. I would be happy to regularly do this sort of job, just not with the sorts of hours we are expected to do, or the level of cover. After a shift I just want to sleep and let my brain decompress. Which leaves very little time for self improvement/study. 12 1/2 hours of adrenaline being all that keeps you going, because, it has to, is fun, but I suspect not healthy. It got to 5pm one day and I hadn't eaten or drunk anything without really noticing. Accidental warrior diet? :P

Savings continue at 77% as per before. Might even have enough data for a pretty graph at some point.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

heyhey
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:17 pm
Location: Herts UK

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by heyhey »

Thank you for being there Crazylemon.

I had to go to hospital for emergency tests on Christmas Eve. The test results were okay, so I was sent home, but very grateful to the doctor who was there to run the tests for me.

One of my parents' friends had a stroke on the 26th. It can't have been too bad because he was home the next day, but again, v glad the health service was there for him.

I wish there was a way for the population to show how grateful we are for the NHS in practical terms that would mean higher staffing levels and shorter shifts for doctors and other health care workers. Voting doesn't work if the wrong people keep getting in :(

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

@heyhey that is excactly what we are here for. Glad we were able to be be of service! I was happy(ish) to work it. Someone has to and I am not leaving kids at home on Christmas to do it. So one better workers to take the hit!
I would if FI still be doing the job right now, I enjoy it not just for the money. But probably part time, hey might even take a Christmas shift to help a colleague with young ones!

Patient thanks is one of the most valuable parts of the job, it can really keep you going and boost spirits on bad/busy days. More than that is completely unecessary, although cards and edibles are always appreciated :p

Bigger gifts we can't accept (probity reasons) and no patient should feel they have to, free at point of use is the point. But if you do want to do do anything else I would ask you think about supporting the (probable) Junior doctors strike that may happen in January. In essence the government wants to pay us less for out of hours work but up the basic pay (a pay cut for basically all but the 9-5 imaginary doctor that is spun as a rise). In addition they want to stop the financial trust penalties for overworking juniors. Currently our hours are monitors and if contract is breached they can have to pay us between 10-100% extra pay depending on the breach. Apparently the government only likes incentives in their favour, who knew?

There are various other issues but I won't go into them unless asked because this is already feeling like a soap box in the wrong place. Although if people do want a non DoH view of the talks I am happy to message/post here. But if you would support us, write to your MP etc. It would mean a lot. This may be a long fight.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Crazylemon's Journal

Post by thrifty++ »

It sounds like you should go on strike. The pay for junior doctors sounds atrocious in the UK. It pays so much more in NZ (even accounting for the currency) I think they start on about $75k in their first year. Mind you I dont know how much the study costs are in the UK. How much is typical? In NZ the study costs would be around $100k of debt.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

@thrifty we almost certainly be going on strike. Ballot was 98% of doctors for strike, 99.5% for industrial action short of complete walkout. We have mandate. Things are on hold pending talks which will end on the 4th Jan and look like they are not going well enough.

In terms of pay I will be on £35k this year (gross hence being much larger than figures here) which is slightly shy of NZ looking at the exchange rate but fairly even. I probably work a lot worse hours for it though.

Debt as I have said before for me as one of the old guard is £43k. So again similar ball park. For those coming up the tracks behind more like £80k. Although their repayment terms are slightly better, for now. But they pay commercial interest rates making it much much worse for higher earners.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Lemon's Journal

Post by Lemon »

Well Strike is on. Although I can't participate for the first few as I am providing emergency cover. I will be there in spirit though

I have Just come off a string of nights. I did not appreciate just how horrible they are when you have to do loads in a row. Other than work and eat and sleep I have done little else. It sucks. Big time. But at least my colleagues are nice, so the work is bearable.

I think probably the number one criteria for career and reason for ERE is 'not having to work nights' They are horribly disruptive. No personal development, doing things I enjoy or anything really. Horrible.
Last edited by Lemon on Sun May 31, 2020 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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