Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Where are you and where are you going?
Smashter
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Smashter »

Glad that you're through the worst of it!

How are your kids taking everything? Like I mentioned in a comment in this journal before, I wish my parents had divorced before waiting until we were all 18.

Fish
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Fish »

Very pleased to read that you are doing about as well as can be expected during these extraordinary and uncertain times. It’s remarkable how you lost a spouse, and ~50% of everything else including your time with kids and your joint assets from marriage. Yet you don’t really seem too fazed by it whereas the Suo of the past seemed easily irritable. There seems to be some kind of inner strength or internal compass that keeps you grounded despite the changing circumstances in your life.

Past-Suo was bugged by a constant feeling of having lost some indeterminate thing of great value while Present-Suo doesn’t have the same problem despite experiencing tangible losses of significant value. I would be curious to get your perspective on what changed to make you more resilient.

Fish
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Fish »

@Augustus - From the very limited information provided it sounds like it could be a situation where Kegan2 mom is unable to relate to Kegan1 child. Or maybe her higher functioning is overwhelmed by childcare demands. I hope you are able to resolve this without resorting to the nuclear option.

Add: Could also be cultural factors which would be more difficult to reconcile. I’m not sure this is helpful so I’ll be quiet now. Best wishes getting through this.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

@jace - Actually, I really, seriously wonder if it wasn't covid. Vet thought it might be heart disease, but tests came back negative. He was old, and he died having a very very hard time breathing. And the timing was mid-March, so... who knows?

@Augustus - so sorry to hear that, man. I don't have anything to really say about a situation like that. My father hit me when I was a child and my mom was effectively powerless to stop it until I threatened to murder him or kill myself or both at which point she finally shook her fist at my dad and told him to never do it again. She'd never stood up to him before that. Divorce is hard enough with two people who are trying to do it with kindness; I can't imagine it with hostility or abuse thrown into the mix. If you have specific questions or just want to talk, PM me and we can talk offline.

@smashter - The timeline w/r/t kids is something like this (kids are 10, 12 and 15 at the start of this):

-November 1 - sit kids down and explain that dad is leaving because mom and dad need space. We love them, none of this is their fault, they should feel free to feel however they feel and to express themselves to us freely, this isn't mom's fault, it's dad choice, etc. The 10 year old is oblivious, the 12 year old cries, the 15 year old is maybe (maybe) a little teary.

- Through November - I go over to the house after work every day and every weekend. I leave at 9 to go sleep somewhere else. Effectively, they see me the same amount and in the same place and at the same times as before. Nothing's changed from their perspective. We play more games with each other and they hug me more deliberately when I say good night to them. I'm at airbnbs.

- Through December - same as November except I'm house-sitting for a friend and we start alternating weekends because it's too hard to be in each other's face all the time. I go skiing with the kids on my weekends.

- Through January, February and March - same as December. I move into a furnished studio apartment. We talk to the kids every now and again and ask them directly how they're doing with all of it. They don't seem to care at all. The oldest says about half of his friends' parents are divorced - half of those are nice to each other and the other half are not. He says "So long as you guys continue to like each other, I don't really care."

- April - I close on a condo a 7-minute walk from the house. The kids come over to my empty condo for their first non-ski weekend. They don't really seem to care, but I do. I don't want Dad's house to feel like a shithole or a prison, nor do I want it to feel like "fun time". Both houses should feel basically the same - some fun and some boredom. I get some furniture from my sister and the place starts to feel a little more homey. I ask the kids if it's weird for them, and they don't really care. Their lives are the same here or there - they just want to play video games and watch TV, so whether they do it here or there is basically irrelevant to them. We spend at least a little bit of time walking outside. Since they are now distance-learning, they come to my place Tuesday and Thursday nights and I go over to theirs Mondays and Wednesdays. We still alternate weekends. We have "family dinner" once a week, rotating between my place and her place.

From the ex standpoint - we tried couples counseling in Nov/Dec, which went nowhere given our differences and the different ways we view them. In Jan, Feb and March, she was distant and icy. One day in early April, we ended up having a really nice conversation and we both said that we wanted to remain friends and perhaps we're better as friends. That conversation threw both of us for a little bit of a loop, wondering "holy fuck, what does this mean?" But it doesn't mean anything. It was one nice conversation. No need to extrapolate anything from it. So that's where we are now. We're both in covid hell and we're trying to be the people we want to be, which means we want to be friends or at least friendly to each other. We need each other now, frankly, and It's been nice to get my friend back.

@fish
Fish wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:55 am
Past-Suo was bugged by a constant feeling of having lost some indeterminate thing of great value while Present-Suo doesn’t have the same problem despite experiencing tangible losses of significant value. I would be curious to get your perspective on what changed to make you more resilient.
What changed? This is actually an extremely easy question - I stopped trying to solve the wrong problem. Back in September/October, I had an experience that showed me what was really going on with me. It wasn't that I needed a new home or a new job or a new wife or no job or more free time or any of that shit, about which I wrote extensively here in this journal and in other threads. My problem was simply this: I wasn't being myself. To put a finer point on it, I was in a marriage where (1) if she was being herself, I wasn't happy and (2) if I was being myself, she wasn't happy. There was no intersection of both of us being ourselves and both of us being happy. Which is all fine and good in a normal relationship - the relationship just stalls out wherever it stalls out. But in a marriage, it's super tough because when you are in a relationship that can't give you what you need yet prohibits you from getting what you need outside of the marriage - you die inside. This is one place where compromise is not just hard - it's unwise.

So, I started to see my marriage for what it was and to accept it for what it was. Gaining that critical insight freed me from worrying about shit that I didn't really care about. So, now I "hold onto myself" much more fiercely and I accept that me being me will have some benefits and some costs, but because those benefits are congruent with me, they taste much sweeter and because those costs are congruent with me, they feel much more worthwhile. So, all the money I've "lost" in this divorce? Meh. I don't need it anyway. The divorce isn't official, but I'm paying the ex a big chunk of money every month. She thought I was sending her less than 50% and I sat down with her and showed her my paystubs and showed her how I was sending her something like 70% of every paycheck and keeping only 30% to myself. "Can you live on that?" she asked. "Yeah, I don't need much." I replied.

I'm happy, and I'm at peace, because I'm finally suffering for being me. In the past, I was unhappy and agitated because I was suffering for being someone I'm not.

Jason

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

Sorry about Covid Cat.

Glad you are at peace.

You're smarter than me, but I'll say it anyways- Beware the condo chicks and their common area snares.

suomalainen
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If only

Post by suomalainen »

Things have settled down. The kids seem to have gotten used to this arrangement (dad's T/Th evenings and sleeping over every other weekend). I'm not sure I've gotten used to it. I still can't get over how weird my life is. I walk around my condo all the time mumbling to myself "THIS is my life" and shaking my head.

Sometimes I think about what it might take to go back to my wife. As far as she's indicated, she wouldn't take me back now. I burned too many bridges, I suppose, by not "trying to reconcile" or "not showing any interest - every step you take is away from us" or "you're dating". I mean, sure, "dating" in this covid world. I suppose my chatting with chicks via text or sometimes phone or sometimes facetime is "dating" in this brave new world, but whatever. Often, I think what happened is that I'm on a certain wavelength, transmitting and receiving constantly while she's on a totally different wavelength (like not even same neighborhood - AM vs FM) constantly transmitting and receving... and our signals just cross like two ships in the night. Man, like all the time I look at her and I'm like "if you just..." or "if only you could..." and things would be great. I bet she thinks exactly the same thing.

But "if only" is no way to live. "If only" is fantasy. It doesn't exist. "If only she would just..." is the same as "if only I had a million dollars..." Why is one so obviously a fantasy while the other is so incredibly hard to let go? I don't know. In any event, put away the "if only" and what's left is that I'm exactly where I want to be. I'm perfectly okay with myself and by myself each day. I'm not sure there's a single thing I would change on any given day. I talk with chicks (i.e., "date" them) because maybe it leads to something interesting, but not because I "need" them. Maybe at some point that changes, but for now, I'm fine riding my bike every other day, seeing my kids every-other-day-ish, working from home and just living my plain little ordinary life.

If, at some point, I could find someone who brings joy into my life without my needing to "fill in the gaps" with some bit of imagination, then I could see myself in a long-term relationship again. If only...

Jason

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:58 pm
If, at some point, I could find someone who brings joy into my life without my needing to "fill in the gaps" with some bit of imagination, then I could see myself in a long-term relationship again. If only...
You're talking new cat, right?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

When you really start interacting with other women, you will likely discover a good many problems you hadn’t imagined. For instance, maybe you will date somebody who only eats white food or somebody who still runs a dojo with her ex or somebody who is so extroverted she is on the phone making plans for brunch Sunday morning before you even have a chance to pull out.

ertyu
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by ertyu »

I’m not sure it’s possible to find a human being that leaves no “gaps.” We’re all slightly fucked up. Instead of trying to imagine the gaps away, focus on finding out where they are and figuring out whether you can jump over them without falling in the hole imo. But also, cat. Cats are always good.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Hold out for someone who treats you like gold.

Jason

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

Like buying into him as a safe haven when she feels there are no better options? Sounds kind of like his ex-wife.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

ertyu wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:39 am
I’m not sure it’s possible to find a human being that leaves no “gaps.” We’re all slightly fucked up. Instead of trying to imagine the gaps away, focus on finding out where they are and figuring out whether you can jump over them without falling in the hole imo. But also, cat. Cats are always good.
Yes, this was assumed in my thinking, but I should have been explicit. There are must-haves and there are nice-to-haves. A must-have that sort of dovetails into @MI's point and even @jace's point (generously assuming he has one), is that I want to be with someone who doesn't see my core personality as faulty - who doesn't "if only" my core personality. I know who I am now and I know when another person sees me and when they don't. I'm done trying to fill in the gap in situations where my basic suo-ness either isn't seen or, if seen, isn't really liked.

And to head off perhaps another reaction - it's not like I want to find "my one person who is my everything". Yes, I want a romantic relationship that is more rather than less, but I work hard on getting what I need from myself for those things that only I can give to me, and I work hard on friendships that give me what I need with respect to those things that only others can give to me (and in turn, I work hard to give to them also). But I do want one person in this life with whom I can share sufficient levels of emotional, mental AND sexual intimacy. I think it would make for a rather enjoyable addition to my already decent life.

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Lemur
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Lemur »

@MI

That expectation is a little high no? One will become vastly disappointed in the long-run. I don't even expect my own spouse to treat me like Gold.

Plus OP has the two-body problem solved lol.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

In his situation the moment he is disappointed there is no need to stick around. He is finally free of that obligation.

I have been treated like gold. I know what it feels like. The age-old problem is finding someone you want that treatment from who does so.

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Lemur
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Lemur »

1.) True

2.) Sure. Same on a periodic basis. What is more important is just having a trusting relationship with respect...and having a few aligning traits and interests.

But I don’t think any expectations should be that someone treats you like gold as a daily occurrence or anything...humans are humans afterall and no one is ever mentally in a state of mind to have that output everyday for someone else.

Could be I’m reading too much into your post but just my 2 cents here. A good friend of mine has these unrealistically high expectations of people but then complains to me ‘where are all the good woman at’ and I can only roll my eyes most of the time as I’ve had this convo too many times to count.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Even if is fleeting @Sou can afford to be greedy.

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Lemur
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Lemur »

Lest he run into these problems...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem

suomalainen
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Differentiation

Post by suomalainen »

Book Review: Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch

This book is 400 pages long, and it is a brutal read. I started it right around the time I left my wife (9 months ago) and I finished it two days ago in a mobile home on the East Branch of the Delaware River in the Catskills, where I holed up for 4 days with my childhood best friend who is currently starting a separation from his wife. It was basically four days of therapy for the both of us, and it turned out to be exactly what we each needed and it provided me with the guidance and resolve I think I needed for the next phase of my life. And that phase can be summed up as: individuation, differentiation, transcendence.

About a month ago, my ex-wife and I got into a conversation on the driveway where we started talking about us. She ended up saying a few things that really pierced me: I regret marrying you; I wouldn't choose you now; I think you need me. For the entire 19 years that we had been married, I had suspected that she had these types of feelings, and I suspected that this was the reason why I felt like she didn't want me or didn't like me or held something back from me. At one point or another a few years ago, I even asked her, "Why are you even with me? You don't even like me." At the time, she assured me that she did like me, but as she was speaking on the driveway, it hit me -- it's not that she didn't like me, it's that she didn't, and doesn't, respect* me.

For the next month, I struggled with coming to terms with this realization and the feelings it evoked. It's not like saying it out loud really changed anything -- this sense of not respecting me pervaded our marriage and guided her every interaction with me, and it had always been my frustration that she couldn't ever give voice to it. But now that she had... boy did it hurt. It really, really sucks to know that you wanted to be with, and were with, someone who didn't want to be with you. It makes you feel pathetic. But at the same time, the death of this long self-delusion and the recognition of truth felt like freedom. Talk about a mind trip.

But at the end of my reading Passionate Marriage, and at the end of my boys' trip to the Catskills, I came to this realization -- I want to live a truthful life, and giving voice to her feelings about me was extremely important for the both of us. Previously, we had been trapped by her inability to recognize or accept or voice it -- trapped in the marriage or trapped in the hope that the marriage could be something it simply could not ever be. And in that moment, I realized that in some sense, she was correct -- I needed her. But this sense of need as I came to see it is not the same sense of need as she saw it. She saw it as a childish weakness, like a child wanting to suck at his mother's teat. But I already knew that I didn't need her in that way. Perhaps I can understand that if you don't respect someone and they like you and love you and want you anyway, you could perhaps be forgiven for thinking of them as weak or needy**. But at the point that I broke - where my need to be seen by a marital partner outstripped my need to be with her, I left. It took strength and resolve to leave, to traipse around town figuring out shelter and leaving her with all the comforts of home and routine. I was flabbergasted that she used the present tense and ignored the prior 8 months during which I turned my entire life upside down just so I could respect myself.

I could be angry at her, for "wasting" a large portion of my life, for rejecting me (notwithstanding that I was the one that physically left), but instead what I feel is a desire to be accepting, to be at peace, and even to be loving. And this is ultimately what Passionate Marriage is all about. Learning to stand on your own two feet and to give yourself the things that you need. I don't need my ex to see me. I don't really need anyone to see me, but I do need to see myself. There have been times when I've been so overwhelmed by emotions that I'll go for a walk outside at dusk and just cry the whole time. And I'll look at myself and see the sadness and once or twice I've even said, "I see you. I love you. It's ok." and I actually felt better at the end of the walk. It's like I was able to just feel fully... and then was able to just let it go.

And this -- being able to embrace difficult truths and to tease out where my insecurities lie and how I can give space for them and where others' choices lie and how I can let go of any desire to control, this is real freedom. This is individuation, differentiation, transcendence. To live my life and to be the person I want to be regardless of how others treat me. Would I like to be in a relationship again? Yes, absolutely. I think being with someone who saw and accepted and liked and respected me and who enjoyed my company would be a wonderful way to spend my remaining time. But not because I need it to feel whole or loved or ok or fulfilled. Simply because it's additive and enjoyable to be with someone with whom seeing and accepting and liking and respecting is reciprocal. That would be... just gravy.

And here is where I must give thanks to covid. Obviously it's a terrible disease and getting severely ill or dying from it is awful, and I don't mean to diminish anyone's suffering. But from a Viktor Frankl lens, covid has foisted upon me (and the world) a situation where self-reliance is ESSENTIAL to survival even if you are never directly medically impacted by the disease. Self-isolation and work-from-home and social distancing has forced me to spend more time alone with my thoughts than I might otherwise have done. It has perhaps saved me from rushing into a "rebound" relationship (one woman on Bumble asked me if I'd had my rebound relationship yet. I guess it's a thing.). It has forced me to confront my uncomfortable emotions and to work through them, because it has stripped from me many of the usual distractions. So although a terrible situation, I do find this silver lining.

And so I look forward to the next chapter of my life as one in which I embrace truth and seek to avoid self-delusion. According to the SSA website, having just turned 42, I have 40 years of life expectancy left. If I reach age 62, my life expectancy will be to age 84. So, assuming I'll make it to 62, I have HALF of my life left. Perhaps the last 10 will be as forgettable as the first 10, but that still leaves me to duplicate all of the life I've lived from the age of 10 to now. That's a lot of life. I'm looking forward to it.

* I feel here that I must define this word, so it is not misunderstood as the desperate plea for "respect" by the insecure. Here, I mean respect as in: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements and NOT as in: due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others. I don't need some sort of obedience or fealty or "regard" by the weak; I want to be admired by the strong (someone for whom I also hold deep admiration).

** And here, in true asshole fashion, I must simply point out the delicious irony of her having the thoughts not two months apart that she hated me for not fighting for her and then hated me for needing her. My honest (unspoken) reaction was: I think you need me to need you.

updated to correct title of book. :roll:
Last edited by suomalainen on Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by classical_Liberal »

Glad you're making an emotional recovery. In a way I envy you, because starting from the bottom, emotionally or otherwise, is really a great place to be. It mirrors being a college kid again, were the world seems filled with freedom, agency, and limitless possibilities. Being able to go through that again, but tempered a bit with age and maturity, is a really good thing.

This idea of respect as you define it is tough. As someone about your age, but choosing the path of mostly avoiding deep relationships until a few years ago, I'm beginning to realize that the better you know someone the harder it becomes to truly respect them. I mean, everybody poops, right? We all have some disgusting emotional or psychological baggage, some dark corners we rarely explore, and it takes truly knowing someone to realize where their dark corners lie. One you know, there's no coming back. Each time a light is shone into the recess of that corner, someone seems a bit less admirable. IDK where I'm going with this, other than i think everyone deserves a break, a little less judgement. Maybe if your ex can't respect you, it speaks more to her inability to empathize with others as human beings than it does anything about you.

Anyway, keep going and good luck! I miss seeing your input in the journals around here.

ertyu
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by ertyu »

We all have baggage, but what determines respect for me in the face of that is how the person themselves deal with their own baggage. For me, scale of respect from least to most goes like this:

1. You act out with little thought for others - shit they're getting from you, or good they're not. Servicing your ego - either self-aggrandizement or avoiding facing the truth of who and what you really are - take utmost precedence to healthy relationships and authenticity. You are best avoided as you hurt and damage everyone you touch.

2. You are an honest coward. You do your best to be aware of your own shit. You act mainly from avoidance, but the only person you're hurting is yourself. (I am now here)

3. You're constantly engaged in a process of facing and letting go of your own shit. You subscribe to authenticity as a value (not the same as, "i just tell it like it is" which is plain old assholery and dominant at stage 1). You live with integrity and you practice integrity in your relationships. You fuck up, but you introspect, you own that shit, you apologize, and you do better.

4. The Dalai Lama, probably.

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