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BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:05 pm
by C40
MAIN THEMES: (from memory, let me know if I’m missing some):

1 - Only assessing what is in your complete control as good or bad. The things in your control are your own actions, words, and thoughts.

2 - Not getting upset or irritated by anything outside of your direct control.

3 - Not expecting things that are outside of your control to go a certain way

4 - Continually focusing on doing/being good (through your own actions/words/thoughts – doing things that benefit you and others, being in harmony with nature, logic, physics, ethics/justice.)

5 - Living and acting in accordance with nature

6 - Accepting the things that happen to you that may be linked to fate, chance, or the workings of the entire world as a intertwined system (including death, misfortune, loss of loved ones, loss of “your” possessions)



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A – How relevant are his writings and themes today?

A1 - Do they all still apply?
A2 - Are there other critical themes that you would add to Aurelius’?
A3 - Is there anything he wrote (any of the main point of any passage – Excluding some of the now dated analogies or examples he used like being a master or slave)

B – What are your favorite passages? I'll post a few that stood out for me below.

Re: BC#6 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:20 pm
by C40
QUESTIONS:
C40 wrote: A – How relevant are his writings and themes today?

A1 - Do they all still apply?
A2 - Are there other critical themes that you would add to Aurelius’?
A3 - Is there anything he wrote (any of the main point of any passage – Excluding some of the now dated analogies or examples he used like being a master or slave)
I'm going to hold off on this one and let the others discuss it

C40 wrote:B – What are your favorite passages?
Here are mine. I plan to finish reviewing all the passages I picked out on my first read through, but these are ones I circled as I initially recorded the passage numbers.




TOO MANY GOODS – Book 5, passage 12:
Staniforth translation wrote:The popular conception of ‘goods’ can be tested in this way*. If the things a man identifies in his own mind with ‘goods’ are such things as prudence, temperance, justice, and fortitude, then, given that preconception, he will have no ears for the old jest about ‘so many goods’, for it will lack any point. On the other hand, if he shares vulgar notion of what constitutes ‘goods’, he will readily accepts the joker’s quip, and have no difficulty in seeing its aptness. The majority do, in fact, entertain this idea of values, and they would never take offence at the witticism or refuse to hear it; indeed, we must accept it as an apt and clever observation if we take it to refer to wealth or things which conduce to luxury or prestige. So now for the test: ask yourself whether we do right to set store by things and think of them as ‘goods’, if our mental picture of them is such as to give meaning to the gibe that ‘the owner of so many goods has no room relieve himself.’
I didn’t pick up on the point of this, from either translation, until I read the note at the end of book 5:
Staniforth, note at end of book 5 wrote:* This paragraph turns on the ambiguous meaning of the word ‘goods’. The man in the street understands it to signify worldly possessions, rather than those virtues of character which are the true ‘goods’ in life. To a philosopher, on the other hand, the word would naturally convey this latter sense; and he would accordingly be puzzled by a reference to someone ‘having to many goods that he as no room to relive himself anywhere’
It’s funny – this passage here, and a number of others, reflect on the importance that most of the population placed on material possessions and on what other people (many who they don’t even know) think and say about them (or even – what someone thinks other people think about them). Humans have had the same hang-ups and challenges for so many years. This has led me to believe that technological developments will absolutely define the progress the humans make, and we will still have the same bullshit hang ups that we've had for at least thousands of years.




LOGIC, PHYSICS, ETHICS – Book 8, passage 13:
Hays translation wrote:]Apply them constantly, to everything that happens: Physics, Ethics, Logic
I like little mantras like this. Just three words can mean so much, and remind myself of so much else (the rest of the key themes in the book if I let my mind wander to them). This is so INTJ.




A PERPETUAL SPRING – Book 8, passage 51:
Hays translation wrote:No carelessness in your actions. No confusion in your words. No imprecision in your thoughts. No retreating into your own soul, or trying to escape it. No overactivity.

They kill you, cut you with knives, shower you with curses. And that somehow cuts your mind off from clearness, and sanity, and self-control, and justice?

A man standing by a spring of clear, sweet water and cursing it. While the fresh water keeps bubbling up. He can shovel mud into it, or dung, and the stream will carry it away, wash itself clean, remain unstained.

To have that. Not a cistern but a perpetual spring.

How? By working to win your freedom. Hour by hour. Through patience, honesty, humility.
The first part of this are simply nice reminders that I don’t really recognize as being connected with the second part. I like them both but the second part is the more memorable one for me. It reminds me of the times in my life when I’ve had a ton of optimism – times when I was doing a very good job at recognizing good things, and/or when I’ve had full belief in my own ability to make things turn out well. Some of those periods have lasted multiple years, and some much shorter. I can use this passage not just to point out that this kind of mindset is good, but to remember and consider what type of situations/environments I’ve felt that way, and how to actively make/keep feeling that way.





THE DAMAGE OF ANGER – Book 11, passage 18viii:
This is just one sentence from a rather long passage.
Hays translation wrote:How much more damage anger and grief do than the things that cause them
Absolutely. Sometimes I let certain things push my buttons. I wrote about one of them in my journal a while back – about bureaucracy requiring me to replace a cracked windshield on my car. It bothered me and bothered me for an entire year (I delayed doing it) - just something that cost me only $200. Since I had little/no way of getting around this, I should’ve just accepted it and moved on. The anxiety it caused me was way worse than wasting $200! (The reason it offended me wasn’t the money alone – it was being forced to spend money very very wastefully that pissed me off – but I should’ve just accepted that)




RECONSIDER THE THINGS YOU DESIRES – Book 9, passage 40:
Hays translation wrote:…. (parts removed)….

Start praying like this and you’ll see.
Not “some way to sleep with her” – but a way to stop wanting to
Not “some way to get rid of him” – but a way to stop trying
Not “some way to save my child” – but a way to lose your fear.
Redirect your prayers like that, and watch what happens.
I wrote this one down on my first read through a year or two ago. I personalized it a bit to:

Reconsider the things you desire:
Not “some way to sleep with her” – but to be able to simply admire
Not “to have a perfect body” – but to live more in accordance with nature
Not “some way to have it all” – but to remember what is important to you.


This is a good reminder for myself – to not let your mind become stuck with poor, incorrect, or non-beneficial assumptions (often of the “more is better” type). That is one of the things that can annoy me the most at work – when someone somehow considers something that they actually control (or that it is their responsibility to control) to be set in stone, and thus making other things become impossible. When people say “oh no – we can’t do that” or “it doesn’t work”, while I know that they could do it, and when I dig a little we get to something like “the data is bad” or “it’s not entered in time for this” or “it’s so hard to sort it” when all three of those are the responsibility of the person talking, but some assumption they’ve made prevents them from even considering that they can improve it now – and then they feel they’re stuck with all the resulting effects of it. It annoys me because I have not found a short way to get across to people the type of trap they are stuck in, and I often give up on getting this point across so as not to derail the main goal of the conversation or visit.

Re: BC#6 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:23 pm
by C40
Some unimportant details about reading two versions of one book at the same time, translation quality and language evolution:

My attempt at reading two different translations of the book has resulted in me spending more time on this than I would otherwise like to. Reading two versions of the same book is tedious. It’s not something I’ll do again.

I read through most of each version. At first, alternating the books for every single section of each book. And then one book at a time. And eventually, just reading the Hays version and planning to only check the Staniforth versions of the passages I particularly liked from Hays.

As I was reading, I recorded I wrote down the book & passage numbers that seemed particularly interesting or insightful. Then I had around 50 of them. I was going to go back through them all, sort of catalog or group them, decide which version (Hays or Staniforth) I liked better, and type them into my computer as book notes to refer to in the future. I don’t think I’ll be doing all that for the start of the discussion thread. I’ll probably still do it eventually. I just haven’t been motivated enough to do quick enough. (In fact, I’ve read about 2.5 other books during this time)

One important thing I learned from reading both versions is that the clarity of translation can make a huge difference in how much I learn from reading it. The Staniforth verison (from 1964) was less concise and used language that I assumed was at times a more direct translation. Some passages in it were much harder to read than the Hays version. I could generally still get the same learning from either version, but to get it from the Staniforth translation often required much more focus while reading. This same translation importance exists for the other main Stoic books – The Enchiridion (Epictetus) and Letters from a Stoic (Seneca). I have two different versions of the Enchiridion that are both good (Sharon Lebell, and also Thomas Higginson) while the only version I have of Letters from a Stoic is difficult to read and I still haven’t finished it after starting it a year or two ago.

Re: BC#6 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:54 am
by jennypenny
I think this is BC #9, not 6.

Re: BC#6 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:00 am
by jennypenny
I read the Hays version and a 1946 translation by A. S. L. Farquharson. Any quotes I use are from Hays unless noted (*).

I wasn’t sure I’d like Meditations. I hadn’t read any stoic writings until I read Epictetus and we discussed it in this thread. At the time, I wrote in New Math’s style that Christianity – God = Stoicism. Having read other works since then and now Meditations, I realize I was wrong. God, or “logos,” is at the center of stoicism. I might post more later on that topic. I filled half of a composition book with notes while reading. I highlighted more passages than I list below, and yet none of them were the same as C40’s. I wonder why that is? I’ll be curious to see what passages others highlight.


Main Themes:
According to the introduction, Meditations is a collection of writings that Aurelius wrote to himself. If that’s the case, then I assume that the things he wrote most often were the things he struggled with the most. I’m not a journaler (sp?), but isn’t that what a person does? If so, two things stood out to me: (1) he was petrified of death; and (2) others’ opinions of him mattered to him more than he knew was wise.

His constant remarks about how we’re all basically meaningless in the scheme of things and how we’ll all be forgotten soon enough were almost painful to read at times. In B4#48, he says “Human lives are brief and trivial. Yesterday a blob of semen, tomorrow embalming fluid, ash.” Yes, but between those two things is YOUR LIFE. Life isn’t trivial. That passage made me angry. OTOH, some of the passages that addressed the same issue were the most pleasurable to read like …

B3#3 You boarded, you set sail, you’ve made the passage. Time to disembark.

B4#35* All is ephemeral, both what remembers and what is remembered.

B4#41* You are a spirit bearing the weight of a dead body, as Epictetus used to say.


Discussion Questions--How relevant?
Very, which is sad in a way. Our nature doesn’t really change, only the circumstances. Aurelius live 2,000 years ago, but even he refers to this problem, which means it was an “old” problem in his day (see Book 11, #27).


Discussion Questions--Favorite passages

(1) Book 9 #33 – All that you see will soon have vanished, and those who see it vanish will vanish themselves, and the ones who reach old age have no advantage over the untimely dead.

Book 11 #1 – It reaches its intended goal, no matter where the limit of its life is set. Not like dancing and theater and things like that, where the performance is incomplete if it’s broken off in the middle, but at any point—no matter which one you pick—it has fulfilled its mission, done its work completely. So that it can say, “I have what I came for.”

Book 12 #1 – Everything you’re trying to reach-by taking the long way round—you could have right now, this moment. If you’d only stop thwarting your own attempts. … Don’t let anything deter you: other people’s misbehavior, your own misperceptions, What People Will Say, or the feelings of the body that covers you (let the affected part take care of those). And if, when it’s time to depart, you shunt everything aside except your mind and the divinity within … if it isn’t ceasing to live that you’re afraid of but never beginning to live properly … then you’ll be worthy of the world that made you.”

All touched on the idea that it’s not how long you live, but what you see, or learn, or experience during that time. A long life isn’t necessary to see the “truth” of things, and many people who live a long time never see it. "I have what I came for" touched me deeply.


(2) Book 10 #1 is now a part of my morning prayers.
To my soul:
Are you ever going to achieve goodness? Ever going to be simple, whole, and naked—as plain to see as the body that contains you? Know what an affectionate and loving disposition would feel like? Ever be fulfilled, ever stop desiring—lusting and longing for people and things to enjoy? Or for more time to enjoy them? Or for some other place or country--a more temperate clime’? Or for people easier to get along with? And instead be satisfied with what you have, and accept the present—all of it. And convince yourself that everything is the gift of the gods, and that things are good and always will be, whatever they decide and have in store for the preservation of the perfect entity—good and just and beautiful, creating all things, connecting and embracing them, and gathering in their separated fragments to create more like them.

Will you ever take your stand as a fellow citizen with gods and human beings, blaming no one, deserving no one’s censure?



(3) Book 10 #29 – Stop whatever you’re doing for a moment and ask yourself: Am I afraid of death because I won’t be able to do this anymore?
Seems like a good way to judge whether you are wasting time or whether something is important to you.


(4) Book 12 #9 – The student as boxer, not fencer. The fencer’s weapon is picked up and put down again. The boxer’s is part of him. All he has to do is clench his fist.
I like the boxer/fencer analogy. All I truly possess or control is what’s inside of me.


(5) Book 3 #5 (repeated later in the book)
From Hays “To stand up straight, not straightened.”
From Farquharson “You should stand upright, not be held upright.”
^^This is how I would have answered the ‘parenting philosophy’ question. Teaching your kids this.


(6) Book 7 #69 Perfection of character: to live your last day every day, without frenzy, or sloth, or pretense.


(7) This quote from Book 9 #37 is going to be my epitaph “Enough of this wretched, whining monkey-life.:lol:
It really is a good epitaph for people who choose to forego "normal" and follow an ERE path, or at least a good epitaph for the early, consumer-driven part of their life. In Farquharson’s translation, he uses the word “mimicry” which reminded me of Girard’s work a little.



Other passages I liked…
B3#14 Stop drifting. … Sprint for the finish. Write off your hopes, and if your well-being matters to you, be your own savior while you can.

B4#1 Our inward power, when it obeys nature, reacts to events by accommodating itself to what it faces—to what is possible.

B4#7 Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been.

B5#37 But true good fortune is what you make for yourself.

B6#5 The Logos knows where it stands, what it has to do, and what it has to work with.

B6#19 Not to assume it’s impossible because you find it hard. But to recognize that if its humanly possible, you can do it too.

B6#30 Fight to be the person philosophy tried to make you.

B6#39 The things ordained for you—teach yourself to be at one with those. And the people who share them with you—treat them with love. With real love.

B7#71 It’s silly to try and escape other people’s faults. They are inescapable. Just try to escape your own.

B8#17 If it’s in your control, why do you do it? If it’s in someone else’s, who are you blaming?

B5#9
From Hays translation “Not showing off your obedience to the Logos, but resting in it. Remember: Philosophy requires only what nature already demands.”
From Farquharson “For so you will show that to obey Reason is no great matter, but rather you will find rest in it.

B5#16
From Hays translation “The things you think about determine the quality of your mind.”
From Farquharson “As are your repeated imaginations, so will your mind be, for the soul is dyed by its imaginations.”

B5#29
From Hays translation “You can live here as you expect to live there.”
From Farquharson “As you intend to live when you depart, so you are able to live in this world.”

B8#6 To enter others’ minds, and to let them enter yours.

B9#41 Concentrate on what you’re doing, and what you’re doing with it.

B10#9* For when will you take your indulgence in simplicity…

B11#7 No role is so well suited to philosophy as the one you happen to be in right now.

B12#4 It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinions than our own.

Re: BC#6 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:48 pm
by C40
jennypenny wrote: At the time, I wrote in New Math’s style that Christianity – God = Stoicism. Having read other works since then and now Meditations, I realize I was wrong. God, or “logos,” is at the center of stoicism. I might post more later on that topic.
[Disclaimer first - I'm not entirely sure about any of this. I'm not an expert]

I don't think that he was using "Logos" in the same way that people use the word "God". If I remember correctly, this book explained it quite well: A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy - William Irvine

Wikipedia says:
Wikipedia wrote: In Stoic philosophy, which began with Zeno of Citium c. 300 BC, the logos was the active reason pervading and animating the universe. It was conceived of as material, and is usually identified with God or Nature. The Stoics also referred to the seminal logos, ("logos spermatikos") or the law of generation in the universe, which was the principle of the active reason working in inanimate matter. Humans, too, each possess a portion of the divine logos.[24]

The Stoics took all activity to imply a Logos, or spiritual principle. As the operative principle of the world, to them, the Logos was anima mundi, a concept which later influenced Philo of Alexandria, although he derived the contents of the term from Plato.[25]
So, basically, Logos meant:
- Logic, reason
- The laws of nature/physics/etc, or, to some degree, the source of those (though not specifically meaning anyone specific such as one God as the source - the source being unknown or unknowable)
- The existence of life in people - to some degree the source of that life - but basically the state of being alive, the drive to be alive, reproduce, etc... I think this basically refers to how living creatures are "animated" or alive - and can think - and are not just a pile of atoms that do nothing. If, for example, zombies existed, they would need to have some kind of connection to the logos (or a different logos??) to be alive/undead/animated. If a different logos - maybe it would be a poor one if zombies can't reason much.

There could certainly be some connection with God here (especially with Aurelius as he was one of the latest famous Stoic authors and , but I don't believe the stoics actively meant "Logos" to be or to come from a God. They may have understood the possibility of it. I think this is aligned with when Aurelius mentions the uncertain possibility of Gods - like when he wrote things like "Well, If there are Gods ... ... .... , and if there are not Gods ... ... ... .. "

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:58 pm
by C40
Two other notes:

1- I believe he wrote so much about dying because he expected that he was going to die soon. Aurelius wrote the Meditations when he was old (during the last 10 years of his life, from age ~50 to age ~60, and he died at ~60). IIRC, he had suffered some kind of serious health issue and was bed-ridden for some time, possibly before writing some or most of Meditations.

2 - I will post a list of all the passages I highlighted, but I may wait until I can review them and write a short summary of them like you did. I think we have a fair number that overlap.

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:55 pm
by jennypenny
I meant to post again to explain my thoughts, but I'm tired today. I shouldn't have posted anything until I was ready to explain my position.

It strikes me that, in the Stoic tradition, Logos is an inarguable truth that permeates everything. Stoics' devotion to Logos and the way they hold it up as a guide for how to live a pure (?) life echoes Christian views of God. Even the language used is similar. I guess it shouldn't be surprising since both movements come out of the same era. I imagine Stoics and Christians were basing their writings, at least in part, on a shared, common history.

I only mentioned it because it's always struck me as odd that there are two large camps on the forum that agree about almost everything but then disagree when it comes to religion. I think this answers part of that question. Stoics and Christians share a belief in an eternal truth, a desire to live according to that "truth", a belief in the uniqueness of humans, and that we are all capable of achieving anything that is in accordance with that eternal truth. Whether one is a Christian or Stoic seems based on how animated one views the Logos, or whether we see it as responsive to the plight of humans. Stoics tend to believe in an unresponsive, inanimate, immovable Logos, whereas Christians believe in a responsive and animated Logos (God).

The biggest difference is in their views on the nature of human existence. Stoics focus on the transient nature of our existence, but Christians focus on the eternal nature of it. Otherwise, most of what I've read by Stoics sounds like something I might read in the Bible, and vice versa. Some of the "little mantras" as you called them appear in similar form in the Bible. I'm not sure who said them first, or whether both groups adopted some of the common wisdom of the day.

I'm still not sure I'm being clear. Sorry. I don't want to derail the thread or start another religion argument where it's not warranted. I'm really not up for it. I just found the similarities enlightening.

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:15 pm
by jacob
@jp - (I wrote this before seeing your most recent post).

Early stoicism came a few hundred years before Christianity, so in new math it would be more accurate to write Stoicism + God = Christianity. Stoicism was a popular "education" [among the upper classes] until it (along with all others) was outlawed by Justinian for being non-Christian---this was probably just a blanket rule. As such stoicism could easily serve as the ethical foundation for later religions.

Depending on how you understand "God", "Logos" in the stoic sense is likely not quite the same. Based on how I understand "God" as a personal entity one can communicate with and who effects selective change in the world, it's not the same at all. Stoic logos is the universal driving force behind the universe. It's what causes electrons to be attracted to protons and display quantum effects. In particular, I'm semi-sure that logos should be thought of as the "reason" why we observe e.g. the effects of quantum physics and all other aspects of our world/universe. From a stoic perspective, logos is much closer to an explanation for WHAT you find in a physics textbook. As to WHY it's like that? Because Logos. Logos is the _universal_ set of rules that "drive" the real/objective world, just as logic drives math in the human mind.

Stoics consider humans unique in the sense that we are the only ones capable of grasping what logos is. Animals are not.

I guess in modern vernacular, logos can be thought of as a kind of pantheistic animism albeit one that strictly adheres to universal principles. Stoics didn't use human metaphors for their metaphysics (e.g. a feudal kingdom with an all powerful chief on top). They used logic and geometry.

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:21 pm
by Dragline
Thanks for selecting this. I had only read bits and pieces of it in the past. On to the questions:

A – How relevant are his writings and themes today?

I think they are highly relevant and form the basis of many modern ideas and practices. You see pieces of stoicism in everything from the Serenity Prayer to Positive Psychology/Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to the Self-Help industry. The idea of cultivating an “attitude of gratitude” comes straight from stoicism. The Jesuits adopted this wholesale.

The motivations and explanations for why stoic practices are useful may have changed or been repackaged, but these ideas are still very useful – especially for the individual..

A1 - Do they all still apply?

No – he was still talking about a world that had only rudimentary scientific understanding (matter is composed of earth, wind, fire and water, etc.), which is reflected in many places in his writings. The Romans were great engineers, soldiers and practical problem solvers, but they weren’t scientists or even really philosophers, so they lifted most of their philosophical thinking from the Greeks, and usually watered it down.

I think we have a much better understanding today of why stoic practices work to improve well-being, essentially as a form of conscious self-programming of one’s unconscious mind, as oppose to the random programming most people get.

A2 - Are there other critical themes that you would add to Aurelius’?

No, if anything he needed a better editor. There is repetition and rambling, but I don’t fault him for it since he was not writing for a large audience (or maybe any audience outside his family).

A3 - Is there anything he wrote (any of the main point of any passage – Excluding some of the now dated analogies or examples he used like being a master or slave)

I think your question may be incomplete here.

B – What are your favorite passages? I'll post a few that stood out for me below.

I read an older translation (possibly Long from the 19th Century), so some of these quotes may look a little different with thees and thous. I’m not sure I would classify these as “favorites” necessarily, but these must have been important enough for me to bookmark. Comment below each one:


“And this I say of them [Cato, Augustus, etc.], who once shined as the as the wonders of their ages, for as for the rest, no sooner are they expired, than with them all their fame and memory. And what is it then that shall always be remembered? All is vanity. What is it that we must bestow our care and diligence upon? Even upon this only: that our minds and wills be just; that our actions be charitable; that our speech be never deceitful, or that our understanding not be subject to error; that our inclination be always set to embrace whatsoever shall happen unto us, as necessary, as usual, as ordinary, as flowing from such a beginning, and such a fountain, from which both thou thyself and all things are. Willingly therefore, and wholly surrender up thyself unto that fatal concatenation, yielding up thyself unto the fates, to be disposed of at their pleasure.”

I like the idea of not living for “what people will think of me when I’m gone.” Vanity does cause us to do stupid or harmful things.

XXXVIII. Even as if any of the gods should tell thee, Thou shalt certainly die to-morrow, or next day, thou wouldst not, except thou wert extremely base and pusillanimous, take it for a great benefit, rather to die the next day after, than to-morrow; (for alas, what is the difference!) so, for the same reason, think it no great matter to die rather many years after, than the very next day. Meditations (Kindle Locations 810-813).

Don’t be obsessed with death. It happens to everyone. Yet I got the feeling like jpenny that MA was obsessed with death and he was just trying to talk himself out of his obsession.

XXXIX. Let it be thy perpetual meditation, how many physicians who once looked so grim, and so tetrically shrunk their brows upon their patients, are dead and gone themselves. How many astrologers, after that in great ostentation they had foretold the death of some others, how many philosophers after so many elaborate tracts and volumes concerning either mortality or immortality; how many brave captains and commanders, after the death and slaughter of so many; how many kings and tyrants, after they had with such horror and insolency abused their power upon men's lives, as though themselves had been immortal; how many, that I may so speak, whole cities both men and towns: Helice, Pompeii, Herculaneum, and others innumerable are dead and gone. Run them over also, whom thou thyself, one after another, hast known in thy time to drop away. Such and such a one took care of such and such a one's burial, and soon after was buried himself. So one, so another: and all things in a short time. For herein lieth all indeed, ever to look upon all worldly things, as things for their continuance, that are but for a day: and for their worth, most vile, and contemptible, as for example, What is man? That which but the other day when he was conceived was vile snivel; and within few days shall be either an embalmed carcass, or mere ashes. Thus must thou according to truth and nature, throughly consider how man's life is but for a very moment of time, and so depart meek and contented: even as if a ripe olive falling should praise the ground that bare her, and give thanks to the tree that begat her. Meditations (Kindle Locations 813-824).

I think I just liked the poetry of this one.

XIII. At thy first encounter with any one, say presently to thyself: This man, what are his opinions concerning that which is good or evil? as concerning pain, pleasure, and the causes of both; concerning honour, and dishonour, concerning life and death? thus and thus. Now if it be no wonder that a man should have such and such opinions, how can it be a wonder that he should do such and such things ? I will remember then, that he cannot but do as he doth, holding those opinions that he doth. Remember, that as it is a shame for any man to wonder that a fig tree should bear figs, so also to wonder that the world should bear anything, whatsoever it is which in the ordinary course of nature it may bear. To a physician also and to a pilot it is a shame either for the one to wonder, that such and such a one should have an ague; or for the other, that the winds should prove Contrary. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1516-1521).

This idea was carried forward to the 20th Century in such works as James Allen’s “As a Man Thinketh” and Earl Nightingale’s admonition “We become what we think about most of the time.” Also similar to a number of biblical references.

XLVII. Keep thyself to the first bare and naked apprehensions of things, as they present themselves unto thee, and add not unto them. It is reported unto thee, that such a one speaketh ill of thee. Well; that he speaketh ill of thee, so much is reported. But that thou art hurt thereby, is not reported: that is the addition of opinion, which thou must exclude. I see that my child is sick. That he is sick, I see, but that he is in danger of his life also, I see it not. Thus thou must use to keep thyself to the first motions and apprehensions of things, as they present themselves outwardly; and add not unto them from within thyself through mere conceit and opinion. Or rather add unto them: hut as one that understandeth the true nature of all things that happen in the world. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1639-1644).

This passage recognizes the inherent human tendency to extrapolate and speculate from observations, thereby creating irrational panicked responses by equating mere possibility with actual probability, or in the worst case, certainty. Watch or listen to any newscast about Ebola and there you are. It takes a good deal of mental discipline not to get caught up in this. This is also addressed in Nate Silver's book, "The Signal and the Noise."

Thou must not in matter of death carry thyself scornfully, but as one that is well pleased with it, as being one of those things that nature hath appointed. For what thou dost conceive of these, of a boy to become a young man, to wax old, to grow, to ripen, to get teeth, or a beard, or grey hairs to beget, to bear, or to be delivered; or what other action soever it be, that is natural unto man according to the several seasons of his life; such a thing is it also to he dissolved. It is therefore the part of a wise man, in matter of death, not in any wise to carry himself either violently, or proudly but patiently to wait for it, as one of nature's operations: that with the same mind as now thou dost expect when that which yet is but an embryo in thy wife's belly shall come forth, thou mayst expect also when thy soul shall fall off from that outward coat or skin: wherein as a child in the belly it lieth involved and shut up. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1711-1717).

More death. I hope I can face it patiently when that time comes. But in my experience, we learn way more about death by sitting with someone who is actually dying than we do be thinking about it. “The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.” Kenny Rogers, The Gambler

VIII. Man, God, the world, every one in their kind, bear some fruits. All things have their proper time to bear. Though by custom, the word itself is in a manner become proper unto the vine, and the like, yet is it so nevertheless, as we have said. As for reason, that beareth both common fruit for the use of others; and peculiar, which itself doth enjoy. Reason is of a dif-fusive nature, what itself is in itself, it begets in others, and so doth multiply. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1746-1749).

Sounds more like one of the Gospels, eh? Shall we evaluate them then by the fruits they bear?

XIX. Of an operation and of a purpose there is an ending, or of an action and of a purpose we say commonly, that it is at an end: from opinion also there is an absolute cessation, which is as it were the death of it. In all this there is no hurt. Apply this now to a man's age, as first, a child; then a youth, then a young man, then an old man; every change from one age to another is a kind of death And all this while here no matter of grief yet. Pass now unto that life first, that which thou livedst under thy grandfather, then under thy mother, then under thy father. And thus when through the whole course of thy life hitherto thou hast found and observed many alterations, many changes, many kinds of endings and cessations, put this question to thyself What matter of grief or sorrow dost thou find in any of these? Or what doest thou suffer through any of these? If in none of these, then neither in the ending and consummation of thy whole life, which is also but a cessation and change. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1765-1771).

If every change in life is a certain kind of death, then it is axiomatic that we live not one life, but a series. We have explored this in other threads with a most excellent cartoon.

XXVI. Up and down, from one age to another, go the ordinary things of the world; being still the same. And either of everything in particular before it come to pass, the mind of the universe doth consider with itself and deliberate: and if so, then submit for shame unto the determination of such an excellent understanding: or once for all it did resolve upon all things in general; and since that whatsoever happens, happens by a necessary consequence, and all things indivisibly in a manner and inseparably hold one of another. In sum, either there is a God, and then all is well; or if all things go by chance and fortune, yet mayest thou use thine own providence in those things that concern thee properly; and then art thou well. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1787-1792).

In other words, resolving the age old query about the existence or nature of a deity may not be all that important. At least your happiness should not depend on it.

XL. Either the Gods can do nothing for us at all, or they can still and allay all the distractions and distempers of thy mind. If they can do nothing, why doest thou pray? If they can, why wouldst not thou rather pray, that they will grant unto thee, that thou mayst neither fear, nor lust after any of those worldly things which cause these distractions and distempers of it? Why not rather, that thou mayst not at either their absence or presence, be grieved and discontented: than either that thou mayst obtain them, or that thou mayst avoid them? For certainly it must needs be, that if the Gods can help us in anything, they may in this kind also. But thou wilt say perchance, 'In those things the Gods have given me my liberty: and it is in mine own power to do what I will.' But if thou mayst use this liberty, rather to set thy mind at true liberty, than wilfully with baseness and servility of mind to affect those things, which either to compass or to avoid is not in thy power, wert not thou better? And as for the Gods, who hath told thee, that they may not help us up even in those things that they have put in our own power? Whether it be so or no, thou shalt soon perceive, if thou wilt but try thyself and pray. One prayeth that he may compass his desire, to lie with such or such a one, pray thou that thou mayst not lust to lie with her. Another how he may be rid of such a one; pray thou that thou mayst so patiently bear with him, as that thou have no such need to be rid of him. Another, that he may not lose his child. Pray thou that thou mayst not fear to lose him. To this end and purpose, let all thy prayer be, and see what will be the event.

I’m still not quite sure what to make of this passage, but it would seem to go with the former.

IX. Toys and fooleries at home, wars abroad: sometimes terror, sometimes torpor, or stupid sloth : this is thy daily slavery. By little and little, if thou doest not better look to it, those sacred dogmata will be blotted out of thy mind. How many things be there, which when as a mere naturalist, thou hast barely considered of according to their nature, thou doest let pass without any further use? Whereas thou shouldst in all things so join action and contemplation, that thou mightest both at the same time attend all present occasions, to perform everything duly and carefully and yet so intend the contemplative part too, that no part of that delight and pleasure, which the contemplative knowledge of everything according to its true nature doth of itself afford, might be lost. Meditations (Kindle Locations 1956-1962).

Man does that first sentence describe the United States today.


XXX. When thou art offended with any man's transgression, presently reflect upon thyself; and consider what thou thyself art guilty of in the same kind. As that thou also perchance dost think it a happiness either to be rich, or to live in pleasure, or to be praised and commended, and so of the rest in particular. For this if thou shalt call to mind, thou shalt soon forget thine anger; especially when at the same time this also shall concur in thy thoughts, that he was constrained by his error and ignorance so to do: for how can he choose as long as he is of that opinion? Do thou therefore if thou canst, take away that from him, that forceth him to do as he doth. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2037-2043).

This sounds like a very modern idea of tolerance. Or perhaps the shibboleth, “When you point your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.”

III. That soul which is ever ready, even now presently (if need be) from the body, whether by way of extinction, or dispersion, or continuation in another place and estate to be separated, how blessed and happy is it! But this readiness of it, it must proceed, not from an obstinate and peremptory resolution of the mind, violently and passionately set upon Opposition, as Christians are wont; but from a peculiar judgment; with discretion and gravity, so that others may be persuaded also and drawn to the like example, but without any noise and passionate exclamations.

It is clear from this passage that the Christians of MA’s era, or at least the one’s he was familiar with, were like some of the intolerant ones of our day. Or perhaps it reveals a bias, even though he is often saying the same things found in Christian teachings.

IV. Have I done anything charitably? then am I benefited by it. See that this upon all occasions may present itself unto thy mind, and never cease to think of it. What is thy profession? to be good. And how should this be well brought to pass, but by certain theorems and doctrines; some Concerning the nature of the universe, and some Concerning the proper and particular constitution of man? Meditations (Kindle Locations 2127-2133).

Interesting take on altruism.

VII. A branch cut off from the continuity of that which was next unto it, must needs be cut off from the whole tree: so a man that is divided from another man, is divided from the whole society. A branch is cut off by another, but he that hates and is averse, cuts himself off from his neighbour, and knows not that at the same time he divides himself from the whole body, or corporation. But herein is the gift and mercy of God, the Author of this society, in that, once cut off we may grow together and become part of the whole again. But if this happen often the misery is that the further a man is run in this division, the harder he is to be reunited and restored again: and however the branch which, once cut of afterwards was graffed in, gardeners can tell you is not like that which sprouted together at first, and still continued in the unity of the body. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2146-2151).

Jesus, now he sounds like Jesus.

XIV. How rotten and insincere is he, that saith, I am resolved to carry myself hereafter towards you with all ingenuity and simplicity. O man, what doest thou mean! what needs this profession of thine? the thing itself will show it. It ought to be written upon thy forehead. No sooner thy voice is heard, than thy countenance must be able to show what is in thy mind: even as he that is loved knows presently by the looks of his sweetheart what is in her mind. Such must he be for all the world, that is truly simple and good, as he whose arm-holes are offensive, that whosoever stands by, as soon as ever he comes near him, may as it were smell him whether he will or no. But the affectation of simplicity is nowise laudable. There is nothing more shameful than perfidious friendship. Above all things, that must be avoided. However true goodness, simplicity, and kindness cannot so be hidden, but that as we have already said in the very eyes and countenance they will show themselves.

Judge people by what they do, not what they say. Timeless advice. Also that people who try to “advertise” their character like a political campaign commercial are often best avoided.

XV. To live happily is an inward power of the soul, when she is affected with indifferency, towards those things that are by their nature indifferent. To be thus affected she must consider all worldly objects both divided and whole: remembering withal that no object can of itself beget any opinion in us, neither can come to us, but stands without still and quiet; but that we ourselves beget, and as it were print in ourselves opinions concerning them. Now it is in our power, not to print them; and if they creep in and lurk in some corner, it is in our power to wipe them off. Remembering moreover, that this care and circumspection of thine, is to continue but for a while, and then thy life will be at an end. And what should hinder, but that thou mayest do well with all these things? For if they be according to nature, rejoice in them, and let them be pleasing and acceptable unto thee. But if they be against nature, seek thou that which is according to thine own nature, and whether it be for thy credit or no, use all possible speed for the attainment of it: for no man ought to be blamed, for seeking his own good and happiness. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2174-2189).

This seems to express the central idea of stoicism. It’s a very individualized thing. A “society of stoics” might be an oxymoron.

II. God beholds our minds and understandings, bare and naked from these material vessels, and outsides, and all earthly dross. For with His simple and pure understanding, He pierceth into our inmost and purest parts, which from His, as it were by a water pipe and channel, first flowed and issued. This if thou also shalt use to do, thou shalt rid thyself of that manifold luggage, wherewith thou art round about encumbered. For he that does regard neither his body, nor his clothing, nor his dwelling, nor any such external furniture, must needs gain unto himself great rest and ease. Three things there be in all, which thou doest consist of; thy body, thy life, and thy mind. Of these the two former, are so far forth thine, as that thou art bound to take care for them. But the third alone is that which is properly thine. If then thou shalt separate from thyself, that is from thy mind, whatsoever other men either do or say, or whatsoever thou thyself hast heretofore either done or said; and all troublesome thoughts concerning the future, and whatsoever, (as either belonging to thy body or life:) is without the jurisdiction of thine own will, and whatsoever in the ordinary course of human chances and accidents doth happen unto thee; so that thy mind (keeping herself loose and free from all outward coincidental entanglements; always in a readiness to depart:) shall live by herself, and to herself, doing that which is just, accepting whatsoever doth happen, and speaking the truth always; if, I say, thou shalt separate from thy mind, whatsoever by sympathy might adhere unto it, and all time both past and future, and shalt make thyself in all points and respects, like unto Empedocles his allegorical sphere, 'all round and circular,' &c., and shalt think of no longer life than that which is now present: then shalt thou be truly able to pass the remainder of thy days without troubles and distractions; nobly and generously disposed, and in good favour and correspondency, with that spirit which is within thee. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2283-2297).

Also a central theme. Sounds like the poem Invictus: “I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invictus

III. I have often wondered how it should come to pass, that every man loving himself best, should more regard other men's opinions concerning himself than his own. For if any God or grave master standing by, should command any of us to think nothing by himself but what he should presently speak out; no man were able to endure it, though but for one day. Thus do we fear more what our neighbours will think of us, than what we ourselves. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2297-2300).

The human paradox on “what other people think”. He expresses it well.

XXIII. There is but one light of the sun, though it be intercepted by walls and mountains, and other thousand objects. There is but one common substance of the whole world, though it be concluded and restrained into several different bodies, in number infinite. There is but one common soul, though divided into innumerable particular essences and natures. So is there but one common intellectual soul, though it seem to be divided. And as for all other parts of those generals which we have mentioned, as either sensitive souls or subjects, these of themselves (as naturally irrational) have no common mutual reference one unto another, though many of them contain a mind, or reasonable faculty in them, whereby they are ruled and governed. But of every reasonable mind, this the particular nature, that it hath reference to whatsoever is of her own kind, and desireth to be united: neither can this common affection, or mutual unity and correspondency, be here intercepted or divided, or confined to particulars as those other common things are. Meditations (Kindle Locations 2383-2390).

Sounds like Emerson or James Allen. Or maybe some quantum woo.

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:29 pm
by jacob
[quote="Dragline"]
The idea of cultivating an “attitude of gratitude” comes straight from stoicism.[\quote]

Maybe so, but how so? I don't see stoicism as an attitude of gratitude but as an attitude of acceptance: "It is what it is [because it's nature]". Maybe your'e just implying that acceptance is the first step towards gratitude?

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:56 pm
by Dragline
I didn't think this up. If you google "attitude of gratitude" and stoicism, you'll find a plethora of references, such as this one, which also gets at the idea of self-programming (which is more mine):

http://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/stoicismtoday ... de-wonder/

Quote:

"This is not just Epictetus’s idea. Gratitude is a virtue that enjoys high standing among the Stoics generally. Seneca, in On Benefits, says, “He who receives a benefit with gratitude repays the first installment on his debt.” The first book of Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations is a poignant and grateful accounting of his indebtedness to family, friends, teachers, and others. Cicero called gratitude the greatest of the virtues, and “the mother of all the others” (Pro Plancio).

If you’re like the rest of us, bringing gratitude to the fore in your life will likely require a conscious effort. If you regularly pray, meditate, or practice some form of reflection focused on self-improvement, an easy step might be to add a minute or two to explicitly acknowledge those things, landscape5people, and events from your day for which you are particularly thankful. It’s not difficult, and once you get started, the number of good things happening in your life, even within the space of a single unremarkable day, may surprise you; they will certainly encourage you. In addition to recalling specific moments–the pleasant encounter with the shop clerk, the encouraging email from a friend, the old car that started and ran smoothly despite the bad weather–you might also remember those broader circumstances of your life that apply:

the presence, or the happy memory, of loved ones

a rational nature, a mind built for learning

the ability, and the will, to rise above challenging circumstances

good health

meaningful work

kindness from unexpected quarters

a capacity for doing good

nature: its power, beauty, and endless variety

…and so on

Regular practice with this exercise can grow on you. If you’re the journaling type, you can keep a written record of your reflections. You might even choose to follow the example of Marcus Aurelius and write about the people in your life to whom you are most grateful for help in shaping your character, providing for your education, and encouraging your spiritual/philosophical growth. Keep these notes and reflections to yourself, though; blasting them out to the world via social networking can be a species of ego-stroking and will only sap their power. Marcus’s Meditations were not written for publication; they were a tool for self-improvement and a form of spiritual exercise.

Once you’re established on the gratitude wavelength, you can begin to notice its impact on your daily life–lengthening your patience, recalling your attention to life’s smaller pleasures, and generally improving your resilience in challenging times. Humility and gratitude may or may not lead us to faith in God, but they can go a long way toward reawakening wonder and hope in even the most jaded adult."

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:49 am
by jennypenny
jacob wrote:Maybe so, but how so? I don't see stoicism as an attitude of gratitude but as an attitude of acceptance: "It is what it is [because it's nature]". Maybe your'e just implying that acceptance is the first step towards gratitude?
To me, gratitude is a kind of active acceptance. I relate it to what Dragline said above about judging people by what they do and not what they say. Expressing gratitude is the "doing" part of acceptance.

For example, it's one thing to say you are detached from your possessions, and it's quite another to do what Ego is doing right now. "Doing" what you believe reinforces it.

Dragline wrote:More death. I hope I can face it patiently when that time comes. But in my experience, we learn way more about death by sitting with someone who is actually dying than we do be thinking about it. “The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.” Kenny Rogers, The Gambler
I agree with the first part of what you said. Experiencing death with someone is very enlightening and can be fulfilling and almost beautiful. "Passing" is actually a very good euphemism for death.

I'm not sure about the second part. I want to die on my feet, not because I fear death but because I want to die while I'm still living, if that makes sense. I also want to experience my death. I don't want to sleep through it. :)

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:57 am
by Sere
Hi everyone - I've enjoyed catching up on the discussion here after finishing reading Meditations today. [For the record, I've been reading the Project Gutenberg edition].

A – How relevant are his writings and themes today?
I completely agree with jennypenny, Dragline and others that these themes certainly remain relevant. To me, the passages that stood out the most were those that I would describe as providing perspective from a global and historical scale – acknowledging that many of the trivial matters and criticisms that we get caught up in daily do not matter in the grand scheme of things.

It’s been quite some time since I read A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy but I enjoyed the discussion regarding logos. The opening passage of the Wikipedia article has a good overview of the different ways in which the word is used also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

I see stoicism as fostering both acceptance, as Jacob points out, and an “attitude of gratitude” as Dragline says. That was perhaps one of the main things I got out of A Guide to the Good Life – cultivating acceptance of my circumstances, and gratitude for simple things.

I avoided reading the discussions on this thread before completing my own reading of Meditations, as I thought it would be interesting to see which passages stood out to me without having been “primed” by the favourites of others. The section from book 8, passage 13 that C40 pointed out was a favourite of mine also. In fact, a few days prior to starting on Meditations, I was in a conversation about education, and what subjects I would include in a curriculum of my devising, and these three (logic, physics, ethics) came up. Foundational knowledge, like mathematics and language, can be taught via these.

Along with C40 and Dragline, I had also highlighted book 9’s passage 40, which in my version reads
“Either the Gods can do nothing for us at all, or they can still and allay all the distractions and distempers of thy mind. If they can do nothing, why doest thou pray? …One prayeth that he may compass his desire, to lie with such or such a one, pray thou that thou mayst not lust to lie with her. Another how he may be rid of such a one; pray thou that thou mayst so patiently bear with him, as that thou have no such need to be rid of him. Another, that he may not lose his child. Pray thou that thou mayst not fear to lose him. To this end and purpose, let all thy prayer be, and see what will be the event.”
A few of my selections overlapped with Dragline’s: I also found the tenth book’s “IX. Toys and fooleries at home, wars abroad: sometimes terror, sometimes torpor, or stupid sloth: this is thy daily slavery“ pertinent, along with the twelfth book’s “III. I have often wondered how it should come to pass, that every man loving himself best, should more regard other men's opinions concerning himself than his own.” And also “XXIII. There is but one light of the sun, though it be intercepted by walls and mountains, and other thousand objects… So is there but one common intellectual soul, though it seem to be divided.

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:08 am
by Sere
B – What are your favorite passages? I'll post a few that stood out for me below.
I highlighted at least one passage in each of the 12 books (although some I’ve already singled out above):
From the first book, passage XV:
“…Betimes in the morning say to thyself, This day I shalt have to do with an idle curious man, with an unthankful man, a railer, a crafty, false, or an envious man; an unsociable uncharitable man. All these ill qualities have happened unto them, through ignorance of that which is truly good and truly bad. But I that understand the nature of that which is good, that it only is to be desired, and of that which is bad, that it only is truly odious and shameful: who know moreover, that this transgressor, whosoever he be, is my kinsman, not by the same blood and seed, but by participation of the same reason, and of the same divine particle; How can I either be hurt by any of those, since it is not in their power to make me incur anything that is truly reproachful? …”
From the second book, passage IV:
“Why should any of these things that happen externally, so much distract thee? Give thyself leisure to learn some good thing, and cease roving and wandering to and fro…”
From the third book, passage I:
“A man must not only consider how daily his life wasteth and decreaseth, but this also, that if he live long, he cannot be certain, whether his understanding shall continue so able and sufficient, for either discreet consideration, in matter of businesses; or for contemplation…Thou must hasten therefore; not only because thou art every day nearer unto death than other, but also because that intellective faculty in thee, whereby thou art enabled to know the true nature of things, and to order all thy actions by that knowledge, doth daily waste and decay: or, may fail thee before thou die.”
And similarly,
“XV. Be not deceived; for thou shalt never live to read thy moral commentaries, nor the acts of the famous Romans and Grecians; nor those excerpta from several books; all which thou hadst provided and laid up for thyself against thine old age. Hasten therefore to an end, and giving over all vain hopes, help thyself in time if thou carest for thyself, as thou oughtest to do.”
From the fourth book, passage III:
“They seek for themselves private retiring places, as country villages, the sea-shore, mountains; yea thou thyself art wont to long much after such places. But all this thou must know proceeds from simplicity in the highest degree. At what time soever thou wilt, it is in thy power to retire into thyself, and to be at rest, and free from all businesses. A man cannot any whither retire better than to his own soul; he especially who is beforehand provided of such things within, which whensoever he doth withdraw himself to look in, may presently afford unto him perfect ease and tranquillity.”
From the fifth book, passage III:
“Think thyself fit and worthy to speak, or to do anything that is according to nature, and let not the reproach, or report of some that may ensue upon it, ever deter thee. If it be right and honest to be spoken or done, undervalue not thyself so much, as to be discouraged from it. As for them, they have their own rational over-ruling part, and their own proper inclination: which thou must not stand and look about to take notice of, but go on straight, whither both thine own particular, and the common nature do lead thee; and the way of both these, is but one.”
From the sixth book, passage V:
“The best kind of revenge is, not to become like unto them.”
From the seventh book, passage VII:
“To a reasonable creature, the same action is both according to nature, and according to reason.”
And also on the theme of reason,
“X. As several members in one body united, so are reasonable creatures in a body divided and dispersed, all made and prepared for one common operation.”
And on the necessity of change,
“XV. Is any man so foolish as to fear change, to which all things that once were not owe their being? And what is it, that is more pleasing and more familiar to the nature of the universe? How couldst thou thyself use thy ordinary hot baths, should not the wood that heateth them first be changed? How couldst thou receive any nourishment from those things that thou hast eaten, if they should not be changed? Can anything else almost (that is useful and profitable) be brought to pass without change? How then dost not thou perceive, that for thee also, by death, to come to change, is a thing of the very same nature, and as necessary for the nature of the universe?”
From the eighth book, passage XXXIV:
“Let not the general representation unto thyself of the wretchedness of this our mortal life, trouble thee. Let not thy mind wander up and down, and heap together in her thoughts the many troubles and grievous calamities which thou art as subject unto as any other. But as everything in particular doth happen, put this question unto thyself, and say: What is it that in this present matter, seems unto thee so intolerable? For thou wilt be ashamed to confess it. Then upon this presently call to mind, that neither that which is future, nor that which is past can hurt thee; but that only which is present. (And that also is much lessened, if thou dost lightly circumscribe it:) and then check thy mind if for so little a while, (a mere instant), it cannot hold out with patience.”
From the ninth book, passage XXXIV:
“How base and putrid, every common matter is! Water, dust, and from the mixture of these bones, and all that loathsome stuff that our bodies do consist of: so subject to be infected, and corrupted. And again those other things that are so much prized and admired, as marble stones, what are they, but as it were the kernels of the earth? gold and silver, what are they, but as the more gross faeces of the earth? Thy most royal apparel, for matter, it is but as it were the hair of a silly sheep, and for colour, the very blood of a shell-fish; of this nature are all other things. Thy life itself, is some such thing too; a mere exhalation of blood: and it also, apt to be changed into some other common thing.”
(a similar theme to Book 6, passage XI, which I had also marked).
From the eleventh book, passage XXVII:
“In matter of writing or reading thou must needs be taught before thou can do either: much more in matter of life. 'For thou art born a mere slave, to thy senses and brutish affections;' destitute without teaching of all true knowledge and sound reason.”

Re: BC#9 - Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:09 am
by jennypenny
Interesting podcast on stoicism. (wasn't sure where to put this)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9fs

My favorite quote ... "Stoicism is cynicism for the shy."