A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

[IlliniDave]

Scott and ertyu,

Yes, you are both spot on in the sense that things could have been worse on all counts, and I certainly am grateful to have come out of it without any bodily injury and monetary losses that do not jeopardize my financial viability going forward. A quirk of my personality is that on a visceral level I tend to go into a batten-down-the-hatches when things come in close succession even when I "know" none of them were a big deal.

This reminds me of an inflection point in my earlier life. A couple years after coming out of a marriage that among other things was characterized by continual financial stress and strain, I'd used my newly recovered self-determination in that realm to begin building a good foundation. I had an HVAC unit go belly up on me and had to get a new one to the tune of $5K-$6K. I remember having an epiphany in the immediate aftermath that what two years prior would have been a stressful financial crisis I'd be dealing with for years had by that time become just a bit of an inconvenience--a manageable monetary setback I'd overcome as a matter of course. In this case the financial aspect is an afterthought, but there's a similar underlying realization for how things played out in the physical realm (mostly that applies to the kayak incident).

[not sure]

Thanks for posting here, iDave, and for being so open

I'm susceptible to getting dispirited in the throes of a run of bad luck, even when some of it is relatively minor like the phone battery. I kind of want to just hunker down in the cabin and hide right now

hunkering down is not a bad thing, as long as you try to feed your mind with good things and good thoughts during the time

[Henry]

My middle aged partner was medevacked (sp) after tumbling down a mountain on his kid's ATV. I visited him in the hospital to make sure he was OK. He was. I told him "I'm not checking in on you the next time." Some guy walks into my men's group with an outdoor ice hockey injury, I'm like that shit's cool when the girls sign your cast, but now you are just a grade A past his prime asshole.

I'm conservative by nature when it comes to this outdoor activity, but when risk is serious injury/death, I'm out. Yeah, maybe Dave is now middle aged Tom Cruise buff, but that certifiably insane scientologist gets paid bags for risking his life. Glad you're OK, but I have issues with the wisdom of middle aged guys doing this type of shit.

[C40]

Well, in this case, Dave was just going fishing. Not doing an extreme or normally dangerous sport

[ertyu]

I have issues with the wisdom of middle aged guys doing this type of shit.

Imo as a general opinion, this is gold. it is an extremely stupid idea for the overwhelming majority.* but imo this strikes me as a similar case to, "don't hike the pct with a baby" - incredibly sound advice for the overwhelming majority, but maybe not for The Animals who know their way around wilderness.

* eg i wouldn't do it even though i am 20 yrs younger because im well aware im also 3x as unfit. this doesn't mean no one should do it. i do agree with you it's wise to guard against hubris, though.

[Henry]

Well, in this case, Dave was just going fishing. Not doing an extreme or normally dangerous sport

And Ned Beatty was just going canoeing.

Where there is water, people drown. Beaches, swimming pools, lakes, rivers. If you are a 27 year old rock star, bath tubs. If activity requires a flotation device, it assumes possibility of death. Based on his description, this was not some mere On Golden Pond rowboat situation. I read kayaks, sharp rocks and squalls. And most importantly, other boaters. who on the trustworthy continuum, I put slightly above meth whores and just below Bernie Madoff. Post buff Dave brought up the possibility that pre buff Dave might have had some serious issues. As I said, I'm conservative on these issues and becoming more so as I get older. But this wasn't a I pulled a muscle running or got hit by a car biking. I stick to walking and I have to worry about fucking bears. World is fucked up and replete with danger. I am not voluntarily engaging in an activity where capsizing is a consideration.

[ffj]

@Henry

Just found out that two of my former workmates have developed cancer at 60 years of age. One has prostrate cancer and the other has colon cancer. We'll all be involuntarily disabled soon enough. So take the fucking kayak out and have fun. Meth whores noted.

@IDave

This is your chance to McGyver the hell out of your fishing set-up. You'll be hoping some bad stuff comes your way, haha. Glad you came out alright.

[chenda]

Glad you're OK, but I have issues with the wisdom of middle aged guys doing this type of shit.

Better to die in middle age than at 18. And probably safer to do it in middle age as you're likely to be less of a risk taker and know you limits.

[7Wannabe5]

I think doing somewhat dangerous things when you are older is less of an issue than doing somewhat dangerous things by yourself. That said, IDave does not strike me as extreme risk-taking individual. Also, I think perspective on whether water based activities are dangerous is likely informed by factors such as age-you-learned-to-swim. Since I can't remember not knowing how to swim, it's only ever been my current level of overall fitness that keeps me from certain water-based activities, although I do wear flotation vest when boating also. The most dangerous water experience I have had in recent years was the time I accompanied the entire 3rd grade to a swimming pool on a field trip, and I was only one of two teachers who actually went in the water. I was fishing up kids who thought they knew how to swim or believed themselves to be taller than they were left and right until I marched the lot of them over to the locker rooms and belted them into vests.

[ertyu]

In either case, it's not on the forum to pronounce on his risk tolerance. He took precautions, he was aware this was a possibility, he handled it. But even if he hadn't, it would still not be our business to decide what level of risk someone else should or should not be taking.

[7Wannabe5]

@ertyu:

I absolutely agree with that “shoulding” should be avoided , but it seems unlikely that risk analysis can be avoided as a topic on a forum where most members might find actuarial science to be a light-hearted pastime. Also there’s the religion of Libertarianism and it’s fundamentalist belief in agency to contend with. For instance, you know they’re looking at chubbies like you and me and calculating how much less they’d be paying towards universal insurance costs if we were clipped from the herd

[ertyu]

i'm safe, im burdening the healthcare system of a different country -- and paying out of pocket bc 1. second world, and 2. i am habitually underinsured through my job as my employers are greedy: i only have basic insurance through work

you take care

[Henry]

This whole board is about risk tolerance. Fuck, life is about risk tolerance. Dave told a story and I'm giving my take. He doesn't give a shit what I have to say but that's internet life we have chosen. His experience is indicative that there was serious risk so you can't deny there was serious risk. If Dave did die and there was an RIP Illinois Dave thread everyone would say what a tragedy and how young he was but at least he went out doing what he loved and I would say "Dave loved having his lungs burst while strapped down in kayak?" My idiot aunt died at 83 when she was t-boned by a pick up truck. It was her fault. Yeah, she was old and no one liked her, but it was a violent and tragic end as opposed to her dying like FFJ's friends of cancer of the asshole or other natural means. I've had my near death by stupid shit and it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 58 if it's stupid shit. Maybe kayaking isn't stupid shit to Dave and everyone else but it seems like stupid shit to me.

[ffj]

I'm sure Dave is wondering what happened to his journal, haha. Apologies

How about Dave just goes out when it is calm and clear from now on? Everybody's level of risk tolerance wins.

My wife has an uncle who built his own plane and the first time he flew it he crashed into a corn field. He survived, the plane not so much. Is there a lesson there? I don't know other than he is more interesting than most people.

[Henry]

Well, if Dave can take a beating so can his journal.

I'll probably get mauled to death by a bear tomorrow and Dave will be kayaking until he's 120.

[Slevin]

Maybe kayaking isn't stupid shit to Dave and everyone else but it seems like stupid shit to me.

Back of the envelope calculations show it has about 2% of the mortality risk of driving (I.e. you are about 42.5 times more likely to die driving than kayaking). Hard to quantify that as extremely risky.

Sources here: driving vs kayaking.

[chenda]

Henry the story of the rise and fall of you tuber Trevor Jacob will be right up your alley.

Needless to say I make no comparison with Dave here. I like been on and in water too. There's something very pure and primal about it. But it must be treated with respect.

@Slevin - right, and also probably brings cardiovascular and weight bearing benefits whilst driving reduces them.

[macg]

Henry, do you think posts like this actually help anyone in this forum? It's frankly really close to just being an Internet troll, in my opinion.

[Henry]

The risk of one thing vs. the risk of another thing is a false dichotomy. My point is that stacking activities increases the risk of death. Driving to the airport to get on a plane is risk plus risk not risk vs. risk. Same with benefits. Swimming the English Channel is good for your cardio vascular but it increases your risk of being a shark attack victim. And as an internet troll, this is not even close to trolling. It's honesty.

[IlliniDave]

Wow, haven't had this much activity in this thread in a long time, maybe ever. Don't have the bandwidth right now (literally and figuratively) to adress/riff on all that's been said, but generally on the recent theme ...

For the uber risk averse: hope the couch and Netflix treat you well. Once you get up off the couch your risk of death/injury by some form of misadventure begins to ascend. I appreciate that things I do might be unpalatable or appear foolish to some. That's okay. And if I rubbed a little skin off anyone's teeth, my apologies--certainly not my intent. I don't mind opinions that run counter to mine, nor do I mind criticism of ideas or actions I describe here.

I'm not really inclined to justify my kayak fishing hobby from a safety perspective in detail. I never sat down and performed any risk assessment calculations. I've been traveling and fishing in small watercraft on-and-off since I was about 8 years old, so there was never much in the way of consideration of it being too dangerous to undertake. The only trade space I consciously considered was in the cost-benefit realm, was it worth the expense in terms of time and money. I looked at it two ways. From a practical aspect there are considerations like activity/exercise, being outdoors, skill development, and short-term enjoyment/'fun'. From a more philosophical perspective it's about living life (versus simply being alive). And like Chenda mentioned, for those of us so wired there's a lot of peaceful serenity to wallow in.

That's not to say I don't consider the risks involved. Any time you get within a few feet of a body of water death by drowning becomes a risk. Once kayak fishing became a given for me, doing so with safety awareness was an implicit consideration. I'm not qualified to profess on the subject of comprehensive water safety. The vast majority of watercraft-related deaths occur when a person is not wearing a properly fitted PFD (personal flotation device/aka life jacket) and/or is on/near the water while intoxicated. Mitigation strategies for those risk factors are obvious. I got caught in a bad spot by Mother Nature, no denying that. I precluded most of the risk of a bad outcome when I put on my flotation vest, zipped it, and snugged all the straps before leaving the cabin to walk down to the water that morning. Will I modify my behavior in the future? Absolutely. Primarily, I'll be a bit more skittish when I detect changes in the weather. Kayak fishing from a sit-on-top kayak in a moderate-sized inland lake with quotas and HP limitations on motorized traffic is not my idea of a high-risk venture, but it is not risk-free, especially if one approaches it with ignorance and hubris. My descent from Mt Stupid in this realm is not complete, but I made some good progress that one day last week.