Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Is it ever ethical?

My first thought is that each person has the right to decide for themselves what's ethical in that situation. My second thought is that anyone who would worry about whether their suicide was ethical or not is exactly the kind of person this world needs more of, not less.

(If you are asking for yourself, I hope that you will reach out to someone, here or elsewhere.)

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I think the practical implications overwhelm any ethical implications.

You won't have any ethics if you are dead. Or anything else.

But don't expect anyone who survives you to think of this in terms of ethics or sympathy. You'll be viewed as an addict, a coward, or someone who just "gave up" unless you were very close to death anyway from a disease or cause outside your control.

And a practically dumb decision unless you are so omniscient and godlike that you can predict the future. Or are arrogant enough to think you fulfill that status. Practical idiocy is not masked by intellectual appeals to "ethics" in my view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide

Wiki lists both pro, con, and neutral points of view. Since ethics seems to be a kind of applied self-consistent morality and the observation (proof by wiki) that there are about equally many arguments in all three directions, I don't even know if ethics can be said to apply. It's certainly not settled.

Ethical? Philosophers like to take an abstract or theoretical view so they focus on the ethics. Forget theory. Forget abstract. Please go to a suicide survivors meeting and see the utter devastation left behind. Go see the real thing. Feel it.

Dragline wrote:But don't expect anyone who survives you to think of this in terms of ethics or sympathy. You'll be viewed as an addict, a coward, or someone who just "gave up" unless you were very close to death anyway from a disease or cause outside your control.

This is very true. And much kinder than I would have put it.

Why are you asking? What's the context?

llorona wrote:Why are you asking? What's the context?

I sometimes consider whether it would be a good idea. Much of my existence up to this point has been an unpleasant experience and I have little reason to believe things will improve.

Until recently I would have said that since it ultimately affects you it's ultimately your decision and nobody else's.

Then I heard an interview with the author of this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0300186088

I learned that people have always had depression, dark nights of the soul, and suicidal thoughts, but until recently those things were seen as normal parts of human existence and not pathologized. I learned that when people kill themselves, other people see suicide as a more reasonable or inevitable solution. She gave a lot of statistics that backed this up, and I've seen it myself in rural Alaska. When people who have difficult times that we identify with choose to stick it out instead, it makes us stronger and more likely to follow in their footsteps. By not killing yourself, you potentially save the life of a young relative or neighbor who will one day be where you are now and looking back at you as an example.

This is totally the kind of thing I love to talk about (and I'm studying) so feel free to message me.

tzxn3 wrote:

llorona wrote:Why are you asking? What's the context?

I sometimes consider whether it would be a good idea. Much of my existence up to this point has been an unpleasant experience and I have little reason to believe things will improve.

what follows are my views, and conclusions after going through some similar thoughts.

Suicide is no solution because there is no problem.

From what I gathered during my 35 years on earth, existence never was supposed to be an overall pleasant experience. For all I know, it starts with birth and ends with death, and both are pretty unpleasant. What is inbetween is not even really up to you, and on average it involves suffering, disease, death of relatives and so on...

Don't ask what the point is, because there is no such thing as a point.

Shall you stop expecting, you will see what's left.
My own answer, is that it's not about what life should be, or will be, it is not about ERE. It's about the small things.

My mom went through breast cancer 12 years ago and every year since then was more load thrown at the fan. I will not go into details, but she knows the worst is yet to come. Still, she's standing, why ?
In the end, you better take what's offered, because that is all you will ever get.

As for being ethical, can't answer that without sounding harsh or offensive, but the comment above mine just makes perfect sense.

tzxn3 wrote:

llorona wrote:Why are you asking? What's the context?

I sometimes consider whether it would be a good idea. Much of my existence up to this point has been an unpleasant experience and I have little reason to believe things will improve.

Sorry about your pain. And sorry if we sounded judgmental. That probably wasn't fair of us (me in particular).

We're glad to came forward with it though, even if we don't have any magic quick fixes. And we're willing to listen, publicly or privately.

It's okay. I deliberately tried not to make it too personal.

Put such thoughts on hold. Don't take any action now.

And don't skip through what I'm about to write. Please read ALL or NONE.

First, it is 100% completely ethical and moral. Decisions such as suicide; who you have a relationship with whether gay, straight, lesbian, transgender, etc; abortion; and so forth are for YOU to decide, and NO ONE else except maybe a significant other, doctor, specialist, etc in those decisions.

I do believe in setting an example also. What Riparian said is interesting. Yes our lives are our own, but to some extent they are also an example of how we think we should do things also.

On the other hand these are BIG decisions. You should probably NOT rush into something.

Worse comes to worse, why not say fuck it and live on a beach in Cambodia for $300 a month? Give everything else up and just do that. I'm not kidding. If you feel you've exhausted all other options, give something like that a try. Fuck it all man. Give it a try at least though.

From a religious standpoint, I could argue against it. However, those arguments could be counter-productive depending on your situation. That said, for most of human history the majority of people (including the highly intelligent) found hope, meaning, and purpose for life in religion. If you haven't extensively explored this area, it certainly would be worth "giving it a shot."

Have you ever turned on an old radio? All that static; The poor sound quality; It's hard on the ears sometimes isn't it?

Listen harder. The soul of the music is still there. It still gets through.

Suicide is basically about escape right?

If it's an issue with your body, where you're in great pain and there's no way to fight it, then I think suicide makes sense.

If you're healthy, then it's a different kind of problem that you might be dealing with. A problem of perspective/trauma, which a change in environment, or time & distance can help heal.

Imagine you WERE going to commit suicide, doesn't that give you a license to do WHATEVER you want? For example, you could do what vivacious suggested. You could easily go Sihanoukville, Cambodia and live there for a year, total cost (flight included) would be about $5,000 to 6,000. You could borrow this money and then not pay it back.. Just saying!

*This thought experiment should actually discourage you from suicide. It all comes down to choice, if you're not happy when you wake up, then change your choices*

More than ethics, to me what's important is that anyone who seriously considers committing suicide is in a tremendous amount of pain, either emotionally or physically.

I'm here if you need a listening ear.

I believe it can be justified by severe physical suffering especially when the eventual outcome is already almost certain death (e.g. terminal illness). On the other hand, NO amount of psychological or emotional suffering would justify it, IMO. As others put it, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I understand that for someone to contemplate suicide as a remedy for psychological pain, that person must already have a near complete lack of hope for the future, so suggesting alternatives may well fall on deaf ears. However, any reasonable assessment of the situation should indicate that if things are presently so bad that non-existence is preferable, then surely there's not a whole lot to lose by trying something new in life?

Death is so final. Life is full of possibilities. If you really don't care about dying, you have even more latitude to face life's challenges without fear. Become an MMA fighter. Do some sky diving or bungee jumping, wander the Appalachian Trail seeing how long you can survive, wrestle some mountain lions, try to swim the Atlantic or climb Everest. Worst case scenario, you die in an interesting way. Best case, you discover some reasons to live.

There is nothing I can imagine I want to do. Experience doesn't particularly interest me.

You don't have to put pressure on yourself to 'do' anything. I'm starting to think we focus on that a bit too much around here. Everyone seems to have grand plans--which is all well and good--but I don't think they're necessary. They are also an affliction of the young, which age does cure.