Smelly Swiss Dilettante

[chenda]

The phd was awfull, so i left in 2015. Since then, i worked four month in carpentry, and since last year i do some moving, but less than one day a week. So i have an 8 year gap.
I still live from renting the house. I live in a big building which we rent at 8 people. I have a room there with my gf.

Maybe you could sex-up your CV by saying you have been running a property management company during this period or something? Or you were an Alpine tour guide. I don't mean lie as such, just be creative with the truth...

[zbigi]

"hippies, hackers, and hipsters." A firm that was agile enough to take advantage of the human resources offered by somebody like Jean would likely also be highly competive in other ways.

I could see this being feasible on earliest stages of startups, or perhaps in some really rare R&D lab. But, other that, companies are basically fascist organizations, where the leader (CEO) decides what will happen, managers decide how it will happen, and individual workers just get on with building the pyramid (or whatever the CEO's vision is). It's extremely hard to utilize someone who is not a pyramid builder by nature in such structure. Whereas "deadwood" conformists are highly sought after, because building the pyramids is mostly boring, hard work - something they're ok with. Also, they don't challenge authority.

BTW I've seen some "hippy"-like behaviours in indiviual contributors in some of my past jobs. It usually happened when the department was so badly run that the managers were not really in charge of much at all, and the ICs were running the asylum. The creative and independent ones started writing a lot of novel software that was tangentially related to what the company needed, but was really interesting to them. I wouldn't call that a success story.

[Jean]

from what zbigi says, it looks like my degree was a waste of my time and taxpayer's money, because me getting a job would be against the interest of my employer, and would require me to put an act during the hiring process. I'm still angry at my school for telling me that a degree was all i needed to become an engineer, and if i ever get into politics, i'll completly defund the whole higher education system.

[zbigi]

In Poland, we train a lot of people in advanced fields such as robotics, mechatronics, bioengineering, drug evelopment - but barely have any industry in any of those. They have to either emigrate after graduation, or retrain for some other field - which makes their degrees largely a waste of time. Perhaps your degree was mismatched with the local industry demand in this way? Do you know how many other students from your studies had problems finding a job after they graduated?

[jacob]

In the US, the number I remember (probably from 15 years ago) was that 85% of those with a bachelor degree don't end up working in the field they studied. This suggests that the value of this "edumacation" exercise is along the lines of "education being what you remember after forgetting everything you learned in school". Having been a TA for physics in the Swiss university system, which focused on talking a good game during the final oral examination, most of "my" students went into banking or software sales. I suspect they never talked about physics again even if they carried on the lesson of being convincing technobabblers.

[chenda]

Meh...those of us who were fortunate enough to go into higher education should be grateful rather than dismiss it's value, even if it was all about underwater basket weaving. Just look at a comments section in popular media to see the alternative.

[guitarplayer]

Education isn't much, unless you don't have it. Granted, a degree does not have to equal education.

@Jean, I gather
- you occasionally ponder getting a job,
- you seem not to be able to use your formal education towards that,
- you sometimes get seasonal or part time jobs in the woods and such, that require no qualifications,
- you at all times want to have children,
- you live in a country with the highest disposable income in Europe,
- you speak two languages of the country,
- you have very low spending.

I suggest you get a basic job that does not require qualifications in either:
- caring for children with learning disabilities
- caring for adults with learning disabilities
- in regular childcare
- caring for elderly people
- similar

I am nearly certain that there are posts like above that require no qualifications or at the least require some qualifications but employer will employ you without one and will offer working towards it whilst paying for it. Demand for workforce in this fields severely outstrips supply in present day, I would be very surprised if Switzerland was an outlier. Whatever magical ingredient 50% of ones genetic pool might be, cleaning, wiping bums, dealing with challenging behaviour and similar are part of parenthood. There is a chance it would change your view on wanting to be a parent in that you would not suffer as much as you do now from not being one (though you might still want to become one). It would give you practice with what seems to be one of your major goals. You would likely be saving about 80% of your income. That sort of job might take some getting used to as it is working within personal sphere of another person. For many people I know, and for me in the past, it feels akin to having a little bundle of meaning that some people describe having a child.

I could bet a small amount of money that if you started to actively apply for such jobs today, you would have one offered by mid August but possibly by the end of July.

[Jean]

they all make 6 figure, i'm the only misfit. I don't see physics grad doing banking, as out of their field, because they get told before starting that the only industry employing them will be banking and insurance. And 85% of people working out of their field when 85% have bachelors in psychology or literature is normal. what is frustrating is chosing an engineering degree, while executive constantly complain in newspappers about a lack of engineer, and that i had to notice myself that i wasn't a good fit for this career after investing 8 years in it + 5 years looking for a job and trying a phd.

It parted with it some years ago, when i was able to quit my career. But living on 600.- a month with a capital that barely generates it is not the same as living on the same amount with half a million behind me, allowing me to reorganise at will. And now, I would like to reorganise, i don't see how, and i get angry.
Starting a full tine aprenticeship is the only option i see, but after investing so much time in one education with no result, i'm very reluctant in investing time again in anything witv no immediate return.

[shaz]

If you think the problem is that the gap causes you to be perceived as a slacker/loser/unmotivated worker, you might try reframing that time period as "real estate investor and landlord". Don't hide it, work it into the interview as a positive (ex. "Something I learned from dealing with my tenants is ...").

Also practice explaining in a positive way why you are now interested in re-entering the workforce ("I chanced into real estate investing which has been interesting and rewarding but I have realized that my real passion is engineering and I want to get back into it. My skills had gotten rusty so I have [gotten this new certification/ taken a refresher course / whatever].).

ETA: As others have said, you don't need to lie. It's more a matter of identifying the positives instead of seeing the negatives. There are 2 sides to every coin.

[Jean]

@guitarplayer
your suggestions are good from a reasonable stand point. I'm quite likely to follow them when i'll be back from Norway. But i still need to do something out of the anger.

@shaz i don't think i could do it. I'de need to lie pretty quickly, because calling myself a real estate investor will sound silly when people will realise that i invested less than what they paid for their last bmw suv.

[shaz]

I don't think it would be a lie. You had some money, you invested it in real estate which generated an income. If it makes you more comfortable you could say "small-scale real estate investor" or "rental entrepreneur." The point is you used entrepreneurial skills, creativity, and initiative to turn the money you had into ongoing income. The point is NOT how much money you had to invest in the first place.

Even though you seem to think you were being a slacker, I don't think that is the case. Maybe you need to reframe your story in your own mind before you can explain it to anyone else in a positive way.

[Jean]

i didn't slack, i quit. I developed some skills, but it would be like calling myself a model because i post pictures of myself on instagram. It is technically not a lie, but so much people have rentals and don't call themselves investors. It's like calling myself an experienced mountaineer because i summited the bishorn.

[Jean]

tourist affluence as increased a lot in norway. There are now camping regulations in the lofoten. The game now is to guess were no one will go. I'll see if a few hours of walking are still enough to leave the crowd behind.

[Henry]

but so much people have rentals and don't call themselves investors.

But so many do. And many merely inherited their childhood home. I admire your militant honesty. But in my experience, most of the population just talk themselves up.

[arbrk]

I only read the last few pages but I'm not getting why you are so angry. Can you explain what is making you angry about getting a degree then not getting an engineering job? Are most people in Switzerland who get engineering degrees not getting jobs and you're mad at the system for funneling you through with no future?

[Frita]

I'm still angry at my school for telling me that a degree was all i needed to become an engineer, and if i ever get into politics, i'll completly defund the whole higher education system.

You’re angry that your uni sold you a crock of crap, and that’s valid. Sadly, higher ed is a business. There is little to no concern whether students are well-matched with programs (or even capable of university-level coursework) or will even be able to find jobs. Of course, staff and faculty pretend because part of the college experience is the illusion of unlimited success.

At least in the US, university enrollment is declining. People, students and their parents, are questioning the value.

[Henry]

I'm still angry at my school for telling me that a degree was all i needed to become an engineer, and if i ever get into politics, i'll completly defund the whole higher education system.

I think your commitment to honesty precludes any chance of politics being a possible vocation.

[Jean]

@arbk, most people with engineering degree get engineering job, all my class did. executives often complain in media about not enough engineer being educated, but somehow, no one want's to hire me. It's like if i have a huge default, but no one tells me which.
And i'm also angry that i wasn't oriented toward a role where i would be usefull, because i'm pretty sure i had already this default at 18yo.
In the army, i got rejected four time, there at least they give reason about why, those where : no flame when giving order, not giving enough order, too qualified, and future collaborator being too stupid for me.

But in the industry, all you get is nothing, or if you harras them for three month, a polite standard negative answer.

@frita
the program was easy for me, and most people finishing it get a job. I just don't why i failed at getting a job.


Norway is beautifull.

[chenda]

Norway is beautifull.

It sure is. Whereabouts are you heading ?

[Jean]

we are still on moskenes, heading towards the vesterålen and senja.