Seems to me that there's a lot of reverence for the Paleo diet around here, and while I haven't taken time to fully research it, there seems to be an emphasis on meat consumption, which I haven't been able to completely get on board with.
I remember reading Healthy at 100 a few years ago, where Robbins studied several cultures that had constantly produced healthy, active people who lived much longer than the US average. He strongly advocated vegetarianism before the book, so he probably started with some biases, but here are some of his conclusions - (from this interview)
You talk about four specific cultures -- Abkhazians, Vilcabambans, Hunzans and Okinawans as examples of the world's exceptionally healthy and long lived peoples. How are their diets similar?
"They are all low (by Western standards) in overall calories.
They are all high in good carbohydrates, including plenty of whole grains, vegetables, and fruits.
They are all "whole-foods" diets, with very little (if any) processed or refined foods, sugar, corn syrup, preservatives, artificial flavors, or other chemicals.
They all depend on fresh foods, eating primarily what is in season and locally grown rather than relying on canned foods or foods shipped long distances.
They are all low (though not super-low) in fat, and the fats come from natural sources, including seeds, nuts, and in some cases fish, rather than from bottled oils, margarines, or saturated animal fats.
They all derive their protein primarily from plant sources, including beans, peas, whole grains, seeds, and nuts."
If I remember correctly, 3 of the 4 societies didn't eat any meat, and the Okinawans only ate fish. I'm not going to be around enough in the coming days to defend the position of vegetarianism (not that I adhere to it anyway)...just thought I'd offer some food for thought.
Healthy at 100 (John Robbins)
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Robert Muir
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There is unfortunately a deep vegetarian bias in a lot of health and nutritional research.
Not that I'm biased the other way, but I generally like to do what my ancestors evolved on. Which is clearly reliant on meat to a large extent... That said, I agree that commercial, grain fed meat is implicated in some negative correlations. It's annoying how people assume that stuff is the same as grass-fed free range from a healthy animal.
Looks like a veg. American spin for sure. Okinawa is well-known for it's pork... and they do not waste the lard I am sure. Mmmmm.
Not that I'm biased the other way, but I generally like to do what my ancestors evolved on. Which is clearly reliant on meat to a large extent... That said, I agree that commercial, grain fed meat is implicated in some negative correlations. It's annoying how people assume that stuff is the same as grass-fed free range from a healthy animal.
Looks like a veg. American spin for sure. Okinawa is well-known for it's pork... and they do not waste the lard I am sure. Mmmmm.
I love this guy's eating suggestions as that's pretty much what I eat anyway, but with more canned and frozen vegetables. I consider intensive factory farming of animals morally wrong, so I eat a mostly vegetarian diet. I'm glad Paleo folks insist on wild or pastured animals, though eating meat daily seems like more than I'd want. I view the occasional tuna steak or bison burger as a treat. Fast food is just unappetizing.
I think as long as you avoid the heavily processed stuff you'll be doing your health a huge favor. This seems to be a common theme of nutrition advice whether the end recommended diet is vegetarian, Paleo, or somewhere in between. Quick food sniff test: can I recognize the ingredients on this list?
To tie this back in with ERE, a vegetarian diet you make from scratch at home is also going to be one of the cheapest ways to feed yourself.
I think as long as you avoid the heavily processed stuff you'll be doing your health a huge favor. This seems to be a common theme of nutrition advice whether the end recommended diet is vegetarian, Paleo, or somewhere in between. Quick food sniff test: can I recognize the ingredients on this list?
To tie this back in with ERE, a vegetarian diet you make from scratch at home is also going to be one of the cheapest ways to feed yourself.
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jacob
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I understand that "primitive" people eat insects and prefer offal but still mainly rely on gathering over hunting. Am I wrong in this?
Am I right in assuming that modern paleo prefer eating the muscles that primitives shun unless they run out of the other options?
How far would westerners go to be truly paleo?
Am I right in assuming that modern paleo prefer eating the muscles that primitives shun unless they run out of the other options?
How far would westerners go to be truly paleo?
Insects are high in protein and other trace elements, and they are a lot more sustainable than beef, pork, chicken etc. I've never eaten an insect, but strangely I would love to try some.
The only organ meat I've ever had is liver, and I must say yuck! I'm not a picky eater. I'll try anything at least once. But I must say, I'm not very interested in trying other sweet meats. Perhaps that is a Western bias, although I wonder if hot dogs count?
The only organ meat I've ever had is liver, and I must say yuck! I'm not a picky eater. I'll try anything at least once. But I must say, I'm not very interested in trying other sweet meats. Perhaps that is a Western bias, although I wonder if hot dogs count?
LOL, hot dogs... No love for delicious liver and onions? Yes, the organs have many of the minerals that you would need if you didn't have access to diverse plant life (ie: cold winters).
I've had a mexican grasshoper dish before and have to say they were pretty tasty once you got over it... I saw a program where in SE Asia ants were harvested and eaten. They looked, and supposedly tasted, like rice in a stir fry (OMG low carb rice!)... A very complete, and procurable food source -if you can get over your revulsion!
I've had a mexican grasshoper dish before and have to say they were pretty tasty once you got over it... I saw a program where in SE Asia ants were harvested and eaten. They looked, and supposedly tasted, like rice in a stir fry (OMG low carb rice!)... A very complete, and procurable food source -if you can get over your revulsion!
The paleo diet just strikes me as the new "answer." 20 years ago it was the high carb and low fat diet (white rice and turkey). That diet was mostly debunked. Then came the Atkins diet. It was mostly debunked. Then the South Beach, a slightly different version of Atkins...mostly debunked. And, now, the paleo diet.
All of these diets have truth behind them, but they all seem to take everything too far.
I would bet the same people touting paleo like it's a religion will be on something else in a few years. I doubt Susan Powter is still eating a high carb/low fat diet.
All of these diets have truth behind them, but they all seem to take everything too far.
I would bet the same people touting paleo like it's a religion will be on something else in a few years. I doubt Susan Powter is still eating a high carb/low fat diet.
@Chad: I'm going to disagree. I've been doing it since before I ever heard anyone say "paleo." Sure, it's getting very popular but I don't think it's a fad... I think it's the correct answer, or at least the closest we've come.
I can't see any information coming out that will make me not be on this diet for the rest of my life.
Diets got in trouble by trying to outsmart evolution. In my mind the most debunked diet is the low cal, low fat... Which is still the single most pervasive.
I can't see any information coming out that will make me not be on this diet for the rest of my life.
Diets got in trouble by trying to outsmart evolution. In my mind the most debunked diet is the low cal, low fat... Which is still the single most pervasive.
it's early days for the paleo diet. i can easily see it being a "fad" diet in the sense that many who are jumping on ship now won't necessarily stay on it. it's early to say whether the number remaining on board will be significant, but i anticipate being one of them.
the difference, however, between paleo and other fads is that it isn't really a "diet" in the sense of going hungry for purposes of losing weight. i haven't studied the underlying science for other fad diets, except the Zone, which apparently has some crossover with paleo.
it's such early days for paleo that there are many different flavors of it, including one of the latest books/figures, Robb Wolf's, which prescribes insane amounts of fish oil consumption, à la the Zone. Then there's the raw paleos, the low carbers, the intermittent fasters, the "cardio is bad" people, the barefoot runners, etc.
the difference, however, between paleo and other fads is that it isn't really a "diet" in the sense of going hungry for purposes of losing weight. i haven't studied the underlying science for other fad diets, except the Zone, which apparently has some crossover with paleo.
it's such early days for paleo that there are many different flavors of it, including one of the latest books/figures, Robb Wolf's, which prescribes insane amounts of fish oil consumption, à la the Zone. Then there's the raw paleos, the low carbers, the intermittent fasters, the "cardio is bad" people, the barefoot runners, etc.
Based on this explanation:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/20 ... -solution/
The whole "grains are poison" meme seems foolish. By the time the grains worked their way deep enough to get your system to respond, you would have eaten tons of other stuff. How would you know what actually made you sick? If, in fact, it did make you sick. It's not a very good defense.
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/20 ... -solution/
The whole "grains are poison" meme seems foolish. By the time the grains worked their way deep enough to get your system to respond, you would have eaten tons of other stuff. How would you know what actually made you sick? If, in fact, it did make you sick. It's not a very good defense.
@Zev
"the difference, however, between paleo and other fads is that it isn't really a "diet" in the sense of going hungry for purposes of losing weight."
This is the same thing Susan Powter was saying in the early 90's about the high carb/low fat diet. Eat as much as you want (thus calories don't matter) in low fat food and you won't gain weight. Obviously, this wasn't true. I'm doubtful the of the same claim by paleo.
"the difference, however, between paleo and other fads is that it isn't really a "diet" in the sense of going hungry for purposes of losing weight."
This is the same thing Susan Powter was saying in the early 90's about the high carb/low fat diet. Eat as much as you want (thus calories don't matter) in low fat food and you won't gain weight. Obviously, this wasn't true. I'm doubtful the of the same claim by paleo.
@Chad -- There's no version of paleo that says to eat as much as you want, with no limit. No snark intended, but you may want to read up a bit more about it before making such claims.
That said, it's pretty hard to overeat when you eat foods as rich as high-fat meats, organs and veg/tubers smothered in fat.
There are a lot of resources in the ERE+Paleo thread, including some very deep and credible breakdowns of the case against grain, as well as the caveat to that--traditionally prepared grains are possibly quite healthy.
That said, it's pretty hard to overeat when you eat foods as rich as high-fat meats, organs and veg/tubers smothered in fat.
There are a lot of resources in the ERE+Paleo thread, including some very deep and credible breakdowns of the case against grain, as well as the caveat to that--traditionally prepared grains are possibly quite healthy.
@ Jacob - I bought a freezer and a half grass-fed animal. I have tongue, liver, kidneys, fat and as much of the animal as I could - I try to use the entire animal - I figure I have to eat, something has to die, I might as well eat the whole thing. I took a tour of the farm that my animal grew on and am very comfortable with what my food consumed before I ate it. I live in Canada, other than mosquitoes in the early summer, we don't really have massive insect populations to live off of.
@ Chad - I agree with Zev - you just don't feel as hungry. I'm curious to know what you think "the answer" is? I followed what could be called a "healthy" low-fat diet for years and really I haven't felt as well as I do now, following a diet that matches, or at least as close as possible what our ancestors ate.
@ Chad - I agree with Zev - you just don't feel as hungry. I'm curious to know what you think "the answer" is? I followed what could be called a "healthy" low-fat diet for years and really I haven't felt as well as I do now, following a diet that matches, or at least as close as possible what our ancestors ate.