Kids on ERE

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jennypenny
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by jennypenny »

BecaS wrote: I'm going to ask that you add in housing costs pro-rated for each child, because after all, if it was just you and your spouse, you could live in a much smaller footprint.
I agree if you are spending more on housing because of children then you should add it in. We aren't. Personally? I'd live in our van if it was just DH and I. DH? He likes his land. We're looking at places now for retirement. If we move, it will probably be for more land and less house but the price will be about the same. The real estate taxes will be lower, but DH wants to live here because of his job, not because of the kids. Our inflated housing costs are (mostly) due to his employment, not the kids.

BecaS wrote: Also I need some furnishings costs in there- beds, bed linens, etc. Beds, furniture are mostly one time/sunk cost items but they do have to be purchased.
DD sleeps in the bed I used as a child. The boys beds were free. The dressers are a mixture of hand-me-downs and a gift.

BecaS wrote: Bed linens, towels, etc. need to be replenished occasionally. No, these are not monthly costs but they are real costs and they do occur. Count them as yearly or bi-annual if you'd like.
LOL...I don't think I've bought linens in 10 years. Some of the towels we still use were a wedding present from '89. The kids got new blankets maybe 5 years ago? We do paint their rooms every 5 years or so and rearrange the furniture every once in a while to make everything seem newer. At one point the boys and DD switched rooms just to change things up.

BecaS wrote: Toiletries and hygiene items need to be factored in as well. Again, this is picking on details, but with a budget as tight as $200/month per child, details matter.
They are part of the grocery budget.

--------
I'm not trying to argue. Just putting our numbers out there for the younger people considering children. YMMV. I guess I just don't subscribe to the idea that all linens or towels have to match, or that the theme of their room has to change as they age. My house isn't magazine ready (unless there's a magazine called Extreme Eclectic :D ) but we're more than comfortable.

KevinW
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by KevinW »

I think what we have here is a classic Wheaton scale failure to communicate.

@BecaS seems to be starting with a mainstream baseline and subtracting from there. It is true that it is impossible to cut costs below a certain lower bound that way. However one of the core ERE ideas is to start from zero and add from there. jacob's and bigato's solutions are examples of the kinds of solutions one comes up with when they think that way. It's not naive to say this approach generalizes to almost any material need. Remember this forum is about being "extreme."

BecaS
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by BecaS »

JennyPenny, I just went over our towel edges with the serger because they were beginning to fray so badly. These towels are about 3 years old, and they are used primarily by two adults. We wash them about every other day or so (the bathroom hand towel more often) and we line dry them.

I estimate that we'll get another couple of years of use out of them before they are so worn that they'll be thread bare.

We get about 5 years out of a set of sheets before the bottom sheet starts to wear through. I used top sheets from sets with worn bottom sheets to make smaller fitted sheets for the camper.

Yes, furniture can certainly be hand me down, and no, things do not have to match. I agree. But again, since we are running the numbers on such a tight margin, details count. Larger budget, smaller details get absorbed- they don't have as much of an impact.

But then again, that's why we are here, isn't it? We are examining the details of our lives for costs savings in order to wring the most value out of the least amount of money. :)

*MEANWHILE* at least half of the ERE forum participants are all, "WHAT? You can make your own underwear from discarded knit tops? I AM ALL OVER THIS. WHERE DO I START?" :D
Last edited by BecaS on Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

lilacorchid
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by lilacorchid »

" Just putting our numbers out there for the younger people considering children. "

For those who are interested, I'm in the middle of this with a toddler...

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jennypenny
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by jennypenny »

lilacorchid wrote:" Just putting our numbers out there for the younger people considering children. "

For those who are interested, I'm in the middle of this with a toddler...
Then alcohol is your biggest added expense! :lol:

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

BecaS wrote:I'm not saying that it's impossible to raise kids on much less than the average consumer spends on kid-related expenses. I *am* saying that if you want to do this successfully, happily, sustainably, relatively stress-free, it's best to embark upon it with a realistic expenditure amount in mind.
And what I'm saying is that no one can tell anyone else what that "realistic expenditure amount" will be. It varies depending on your skill sets. Believe me, I was not trying to insult you when I referenced "skill level". What I mean is your ability to meet various needs for less money. This is ERE 101. It's what Jacob meant when he said he can get the same lifestyle as the average consumer despite the latter spending 3-6 times more for the same thing.

You can tell me you can't build a swing set for $20 until you're blue in the face. And I can tell you that I can raise kids for $200/mo or less until I'm blue in the face.

Could it be that we're both right?

RE: Wheaton Scale--exactly.

George the original one
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by George the original one »

BecaS wrote:P.S. George the Original One, I do concur, we are beyond the forest and the trees in this discussion. We are on the forest floor meeting the termites. Literally. I do believe that I invoked termites earlier in this thread.
Yes and you acted as if there aren't termites in Brazil, where Bigato lives. See http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6LWjP0sZ22w/TIcDy ... _70915.jpg for an example of a Brazilian termite mound.

lilacorchid
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by lilacorchid »

jennypenny wrote:
lilacorchid wrote:" Just putting our numbers out there for the younger people considering children. "

For those who are interested, I'm in the middle of this with a toddler...
Then alcohol is your biggest added expense! :lol:
LOL... actually, I have figured out how to game my credit card points and use them for beer. WIN!!! :D

BecaS
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by BecaS »

JennyPenny, I'm going to call "foul" on the housing cost factor. It's not a matter of whether or not you and your husband would live in that housing anyway. If you are choosing to live in housing that will accommodate five people as opposed to housing that will accommodate two people, then you already have the overage in your budget. Having the overage built into your budget does not mean that your kids are not "consuming" that housing cost.

They are consuming that housing cost.

If I adhere to the idea that I must start from zero and add costs on, as I see referenced earlier in the thread, then I must adhere to a budget for housing the exact number of persons to be housed and no more, and add costs as costs occur.

Therefore I postulate that you must account for the cost of housing your three children, and you must account for the total cost of housing your three children: rent or mortgage pro-rated per space allotted to each child, plus utilities to condition that space for year around human habitation, and real estate taxes and home owner's insurance as required by the mortgage company if applicable.

It doesn't matter that you choose to live either here or there in respect to your husband's job- the fact is, you must live somewhere, and you must provide adequate shelter for the number of dependents under your care. Ergo there are housing costs, and they must be factored in the cost of raising a child.

Ditto furnishings cost. I applaud your use of hand me downs, but your hand me down bed may not be available to the next person, and their hand me down desk may not be available to you. There will be some minimal cost associated with providing some rudimentary furnishings per person over the lifetime of that person. It can be a small amount, nearly negligible over the 18 years needed to raise a child to majority (our kids slept in their crate bunk beds, broken down into single beds later, until they left for college) but it will occur.

If we are talking about such a small budget to raise a child, per above, every expense is going to have an impact and it must be counted. We cannot selectively choose to discount or ignore this expense or that.

George the Original One, good call on the termites- but it does beg the question, why didn't the termites eat the barn?

I ask this honestly because I've been in situations where the termites ate the landscape timbers- and those began their lives as pressure treated wood. ????

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@BecaS: Honestly, I can kinda see your point with housing in a purely theoretical discussion--but for Jenny, myself, and probably many others, in real life, it is not applicable. If someone is already budgeting for a certain level of housing whether or not they have kids, how does having kids affect that budget?

I own a 3-bedroom house. If I had kids, extra bedrooms are already available at no extra charge. Therefore, if and when I have a kid, that decision would NOT increase my housing budget.

You can call it cheating if you like, but the fact of the matter is not 1 penny of my $200/mo child raising budget would be spent on additional housing.

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jennypenny
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by jennypenny »

Yeah, I guess it's all in how you choose to calculate it. If two people have a housing expense of $1400/month, that's $700 each. If they have a baby and it adds $100/month to the expense (water, turning up the heat a little), That's $1500. Some might say the housing expense is now $500 each. Others might look at it and say the additional expense for the baby is $100.

It's the same with transportation. You can say that a minivan costs $500/month and list that as an additional expense because of the baby. But if you were paying $400/month for a different car before the baby, the baby only added $100/month to that bill.

It doesn't really matter to me how you want to calculate it. I only get a little worked up about it when I see people blaming most of their expenses on their children. They take big vacations, or drive big SUVs, or own big TVs, or live in big houses 'for the kids.' I call shenanigans on that. It's an excuse parents use to indulge themselves. At least I own up to the fact that we would probably have the same housing expenses whether we had kids or not (like Spartan said).

lilacorchid
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by lilacorchid »

@jennypenny - I agree. We didn't get a bigger house when the baby was born, but it could be argued that we lived in a house that was too big for two people (900sq ft).

Babies are not old enough to swipe a card, and if you are outside the mainstream enough (like we are, and it's not that far outside), you can usually bypass the fearmongering from advertisers (and pretty much everyone you know who thinks they are a child care expert/doctor) regarding what your baby "needs". I have no firsthand experience on how things get once they start advocating for themselves. Excitement to come!

KevinW
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by KevinW »

BecaS wrote:If I adhere to the idea that I must start from zero and add costs on, as I see referenced earlier in the thread, then I must adhere to a budget for housing the exact number of persons to be housed and no more, and add costs as costs occur.
The "start from zero" idea is not about cost accounting at all. It is about thinking outside the box of existing solutions to a problem and instead approaching it as a blank slate. Something like:

1) Does this problem even need solving? This question catches things like smartphones for children which everyone seems to agree are wasteful.
2) Can it be worked into the overall lifestyle system? E.g. can you choose to live across the street from a public park with a great swing set; or run a daycare out of your home so the swings can be a capital investment with positive ROI?
3) Can it be solved with existing resources? E.g. can the kids run around in the woods instead (what I mostly did), or are there free swings on craigslist (as suggested)?
4) Can a solution be built from surplus? E.g. build from salvage lumber and a tree branch (as suggested), or build a zipline from scrap metal?
5) Can you buy in a way that you can recoup your investment or even see it appreciate?

Buying retail products is a last resort to be considered only after all those approaches fail. You mentioned comparison shopping between the kit at Home Depot and the individual parts at Home Depot, and that's a worthwhile tactic, but strategy trumps tactics.

BecaS
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by BecaS »

Ah, Bigato, I see. Succinctly put.

And yes, I did take it rather personally when Spartan busted on my skill sets, as applied to both skill sets then and skill sets now.

I do like your flow chart, and for the most part I agree with it.

I will hold, however, that there is a limit to the cargo capacity of any amount of money vs. the skill set that is used to leverage it. You can leverage a small amount of money to return greater returns, but only to a point.

From where I sit, and I mean geographically, in my local economy, with my experience in my local economy, the numbers that are forwarded here won't make it. I am not referring to my perspective as that of a rampant consumer who needs to be shown the error of her ways, or who needs to be shown the light. I am speaking from the perspective of how far one might stretch a $200/month, or a $1000/year "kid budget."

I am thinking of the cargo carrying capacity of any given amount of cash vs. the leverage one can apply via skill sets with the visual of a literal fulcrum. One can think of cash vs. skill sets in this way, and move the fulcrum across the length of the load bearing member to roughly correspond to skill sets. Greater skill sets equals more leverage- to a point. Past a certain point, the fulcrum stops working. Rough analogy but it works, sort of.

There is a threshold below which a person of even high intelligence and boundless energy cannot leverage his way out of needing the money- otherwise many of us would live in a cashless world.

This threshold amount can vary widely with regional economies, etc. Economies are local and economies are relative.

I find myself rather resistant to attempts to find the very lowest denominator at which the system will continue to function as applied to infants and children. Apply it to yourself as a fully enfranchised adult with means and a vote. Exact your savings there. If the margins become too tight, you have no one but yourself to convince, and you've deprived (for lack of a better word, sorry, it's more emotionally loaded than I intend it) no one but yourself in the process of finding the threshold. Spare a bit more margin in your budget for the kid. Don't assume that because the kid is half your size, he requires half of the resources you consume. That is an inviting ratio but in my opinion, it's flawed. Correlating size or even age to need and consumption is tempting but erroneous.

Don't assume that a child doesn't need "it," whatever "it" is, if he isn't asking for it or actively demanding it. You are your child's advocate. If all of your energies and focus and loyalty are tied up in your monthly budget, it's going to be difficult to abandon that loyalty and advocate for your child. Your child needs your advocacy, however, in addition to and often in spite of your loyalty to a budget. And your child will often not advocate for himself in this area, even if it is something he very much needs.

I've not known very many 11 year olds who advocate for their own math tutoring.

And it is a very good point: the amount of cargo carrying capacity for any budget amount is related to how much infrastructure is in place prior to the budget amount being allocated. Certainly $200/month per child, $1000/year per child goes much further if it does not have to accommodate housing, etc.

We've already taken dental, medical, vision care off of the table.

My concern is that people with less infrastructure in place will honestly think that $200/month per child is a figure that will cover all needs- and in many localities, and in many situations, it won't. Maybe I'm being far too literal here- but it seems to me that someone was batting around the $200/month number literally and asking if it would be enough.

I suppose it's a little late to add the caveat of "It depends." :)

Now I'm curious about why some wooden structures stand for centuries and some do not. In parts of my world there are many abandoned, collapsing barns and houses. Countless. They are part of the rustic beauty (but I do often find myself wondering why no one ever clears them out, and how much it would cost to haul them away, and what liabilities may be associated with leaving them stand in decay.) I have always assumed that at least part of the rot and collapse has to do with wood boring insects.

Termites are so endemic here that we build either with treated wood and/or we treat the entire structure prophylactically. Unless you are going to treat your swing set for termites you'd probably best use treated lumber. :)

I suspect that many of the "historical" buildings we see are reconstructed in significant ways, and/or they have been treated for termites.

I must investigate this because otherwise I will never have it settled in my mind!

George the original one
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by George the original one »

> I am speaking from the perspective of how far one might stretch
> a $200/month, or a $1000/year "kid budget."

Beca, this is something I'm having troubles getting past. You insist others be exact while you're picking apart other people's ideas, yet your own math is downright fuzzy here since $200/mo <> $1,000/yr. Not unless there are only 5 months in a year...

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

BecaS wrote:And yes, I did take it rather personally when Spartan busted on my skill sets, as applied to both skill sets then and skill sets now.
I didn't mean it personally at all, and I apologize if you took it that way. Bigato and KevinW did a much better and more succinct job of saying what I've been trying to say. And I note with some dismay that my own default solution to the "swing set" problem is way down at #4 on KevinW's list! Like I said, everyone is at different places on the spectrum of "ability to solve problems without money" which is really what I meant by "skill set".

I think your "fulcrum" analogy is still lacking though, because you are still insisting that some amount of money is necessary. That simply isn't a general, categorical rule. A great many "problems"--especially problems of "enrichment" aka non-essentials, which is what we've mostly been discussing--can be solved without any money at all. Look at KevinW's list. You don't start spending money at all until step 4.

BecaS
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by BecaS »

George, I've been skating on that one as well. I know that $200/month is not $1000/year. Far from it. I think those were numbers thrown around at the beginning of this thread- and perhaps carried over from another thread. I believe that the budget numbers started with a "kid budget" of $100/month, which made my eyeballs bleed. Then the number got bumped up to a whopping $200/month, which allowed one eyeball to stop bleeding but the other one continues to bleed.

I think someone else mentioned (it may have been Jen10? I'd have to go back through the thread and look for it) that their average "kid expenditures" was around $1000/year per child, so $200/month per child should be more than adequate.

And so I've been throwing those numbers around as examples of why my head spins around in complete circles whilst I projectile regurgitate green pea soup. In between sewing my own underwear.

That visual should keep you all busy for a few minutes while I walk my decidedly non-ERE dog. :)

Please remember, DO NOT BASH MY MAD SKILLZ WHILE I AM GONE. YOU BASH MY MAD SKILLZ, YOU WILL WAKE UP ON SOME RANDOM MORNING IN THE FUTURE WEARING HOME MADE PANTALOONS THAT MAKE YOU WALK LIKE CLOWN SHOES, AND YOU WILL HAVE NO IDEA HOW THAT HAPPENED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. :D

I totally get it now, Spartan- no apology necessary! :)

KevinW
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by KevinW »

BecaS wrote: Now I'm curious about why some wooden structures stand for centuries and some do not. In parts of my world there are many abandoned, collapsing barns and houses. Countless. They are part of the rustic beauty (but I do often find myself wondering why no one ever clears them out, and how much it would cost to haul them away, and what liabilities may be associated with leaving them stand in decay.) I have always assumed that at least part of the rot and collapse has to do with wood boring insects.
Usually the buildings that last are the ones that someone is actively maintaining, including replacing wood pieces as they inevitably rot away.

See Theseus' paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Also, the part of the building that touches the ground is supposed to be made of insect-inedible materials like masonry so they won't attack the wood parts. And you aren't supposed to let branches or leaves touch building walls since they can form a bridge for pests. This wisdom is usually encoded in building codes and HOA rules.
Spartan_Warrior wrote: I didn't mean it personally at all, and I apologize if you took it that way. Bigato and KevinW did a much better and more succinct job of saying what I've been trying to say. And I note with some dismay that my own default solution to the "swing set" problem is way down at #4 on KevinW's list! Like I said, everyone is at different places on the spectrum of "ability to solve problems without money" which is really what I meant by "skill set".
To be fair, I stretched out the first few bullet items to make the point that accepting the premise that swings even need to be acquired is already a concession.

George the original one
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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by George the original one »

Species of wood matters, too. Here's a link to a table of north american woods and their termite resistance: http://www.asktheexterminator.com/termi ... Wood.shtml.

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Re: Kids on ERE

Post by jacob »

BecaS wrote: I will hold, however, that there is a limit to the cargo capacity of any amount of money vs. the skill set that is used to leverage it. You can leverage a small amount of money to return greater returns, but only to a point.
A lever is the wrong metaphor because money is not the prime mover, not for ERE. Money is simply a potential and often substitutable ingredient in any solution, not a required ingredient. There are solutions that require no money and even solutions that pay money, e.g. the free swing-set could later be sold for profit.

Hence, there is no lower limit to how much something has to cost.

The lower cost limit is zero or even negative.

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