Kids on ERE

[7Wannabe5]

Oh, I agree. I don't think my two kids ever cost me more than an extra $500/month (unless maybe you count my poor decision to heat a drafty old barn of a house for 12 years as something I did for them), and my S27 was the spelling champ of south-east Michigan and went to the finals in the National Geography Bee, ( I had no clue he was even in these competitions until he informed me that he needed a ride the day before-lol) and my D24 attended one of the highest rated, most expensive private colleges in the country on a full-ride scholarship (against my advice.) Of course, one of the 3 rules I strictly enforced during their childhoods (mostly I just let them run around half-naked finger-painting on the walls, or building vehicles out of junk in the backyard) was that they had to be in their bedrooms at 8 PM and the only activity they were allowed to do was read. Anyways, my main parenting project goal was to end up with some adults who could provide me with interesting or amusing conversation over lunch, so, SUCCESS!! YMMV.

[peerifloori]

I was raised in a very frugal household (though certainly not ERE), and I think it was much more valuable than having all the financial opportunities of middle class. I grew up in a 2 parent household where my mom worked part time and my dad did occasional project work. I saw a lot of my parents. I played a lot with the neighbor kid and mostly with stuff we made up - making wings or parachutes out of (recycled) paper, building a "gym" in the back yard out of cans and rocks and rope, building card houses, making "avalanches" out of dirty clothes. Sure, I always wanted to go watch cable or play nintendo at my friends' houses, but usually they were bored with it so we'd end up doing more interesting things. Lots of reading, too.

We were able to do some activities that cost money - I played rec soccer, but we'd always bargain shop for the cheapest gear. We couldn't afford everything and I knew that. One year my parents made me choose between taking music lessons or gymnastics. I chose flute. What a mistake. I got to take art lessons with one of my dad's friends as a Christmas gift. That was fun. She was an artist and we'd just hang out in her studio and play with acrylics. One of my few regrets was missing the 6th grade sleepaway camp, I told my parents that I didn't want to go, even though I really did, because it was too expensive. I knew we didn't have money, but I didn't know much more than that.

We got clothes once a year at the thrift store, we'd get x amount of money, $30 or so, and get to pick out our clothes for the year. I wanted the fancy schmancy matching spandex and oversized tees that my classmates wore, but oh well, it really didn't end up mattering. We'd get essentials as presents - underwear from Gramma, toothbrushes in Christmas stockings...

I learned plenty of skills and DIY attitude from my parents, who built their own log cabin, gardened, camped, how to start a fire, how to put out a fire, how to make homemade bread, how to sew and crochet, how to figure things out on your own...

But we weren't raised cheap because my parents were saving money, it's because we didn't always have enough to make the bills. You make do with what you have. There's a lot that's non-essential.

e: as for the inital question, I'm planning to have kids in the near-ish future. I know it will set back my savings to some degree, but having a family is something I'd really like to do in this lifetime. If it turns out it's not possible, then I'll bask in my financial security.

[theanimal]

With our first kid arriving in ~5 months DF and I have become inundated with suggestions and things that we need to have and do for our baby. We are going to be raising our child in the manner that we live, ERE style, similar to the parenting of that of @JP and others on here. So it has resulted in some, let’s say..interesting, conversations. So far it doesn’t seem that we will have to buy anything beyond some reusable diapers. DF has a cousin and friend that are done having kids and are sending us boxes of baby clothes and miscellaneous things. DF already has received nearly more maternity clothes than she has regular clothes. Family hear that we are having a baby and their first response, “oh we’ll start buying things.” Our response: “NO, no no no.”

A sample of some of the conversations we’ve had just in the past week:

A friend of a friend: “Oh! One more thing you have to do. Start signing up on daycare wait lists now otherwise you are never going to get in and…”
Me: Oh, we’re not doing daycare.
Her: Oh, she (DF) is going to stay at home?
Me: We’re both going to be at home.
Her: …..Oh.

DF’s cousin: What are you getting for a crib? I can recommend some good ones.
DF: Oh we’re not using a crib. The baby will just sleep with us.
DF’s cousin: Ok but what about if you guys are doing something and she’s sleeping?
DF: We own a couch.
DF’s cousin: Ok but you want to get it. It helps keep them from falling off. This one time…
DF: Yeah, one of us will always be with her. Or she'll sleep on the floor.
DF's cousin: Well, it's just good for peace of mind.
DF: Yeah ( )

Same cousin: What bathtub are you getting?
DF: Oh we’re just going to wash her in the sink or we have some small rubbermaids.
DF’s cousin: Yes, but babies necks are very fragile and you need to support them.
DF: Yep, I’m going to hold it up.
DF’s cousin: Oh but then you’ll only have one hand for the baby and one hand for washing and…
DF: Yeah...

Other discussions have been with a friend of mine when I commented how the IRS wants to just give us a bunch of money for having a kid. Their response was that it’ll just all be blown on the kid immediately. Others were about how older things, like 1 year old carseats, are so unsafe and you must buy new.

Still more are on our house size and what we are going to do about having a baby. DF and I share a twin bed, I think we'll manage in our current place just fine . (Yes, yes. Don't worry, we are not all going to be sharing a twin bed.) We do plan on building another place to accommodate our tribe but are in no large rush.

It’s all the more interesting because my SIL has a toddler and is expecting twins in a couple of months and is pursuing nearly the exact opposite approach. For example, she paid for her 3-year-old toddler recently (who is already enrolled in swim classes) to attend a survival swim class that lasts for 10 minutes, 5 times a week, for 6 weeks. The kicker is that its an hour away by car, one way (!!), from their house. She was going to buy a flight for DF to go to her house and pay for her to take her kid to these classes. DF told her no and SIL managed to harangue her mother into doing it. So it is a rather stark contrast. Right now we receive weekly updates in the family chat on the aesthetics and design of their new nursery. I anticipate some fun conversations in the future.

It seems that for normal adults the reason that you have to spend is for comfort and pleasure/entertainment. Otherwise you are just depriving yourself. So far with kids, it seems the big justifier is safety, otherwise you are just being reckless. The whole thing is very bizarre.

[jacob]

It seems that for normal adults the reason that you have to spend is for comfort and pleasure/entertainment. Otherwise you are just depriving yourself. So far with kids, it seems the big justifier is safety, otherwise you are just being reckless. The whole thing is very bizarre.

It is, isn't it?

Key focus in the US is family, safe, and comfort. (You'll see these words on every billboard and in every ad.)
The solution is always spending and buying a product.

Thus, if you think outside that box ... it's like you're self-ostracizing from that matrix. How are you gonna live or even survive? It's nearly inconceivable. The programming works very well.

[Seppia]

Being a parent of a 2yo I allow myself to give you a suggestion.
Buy a bed for the baby. Second hand, they cost like $20 or so.
But they have to learn to sleep separated from you.
It’s the best advice I was given as a new parent.
Some friends of mine had their babies sleeping with them regularly and they still have trouble getting them out of their bed at 9yo.

[theanimal]

I appreciate the suggestion, Seppia. In this case, it's not really a monetary factor. We are of the constant contact camp, so we will be having her sleep with us at least til ~age 1. If it becomes a problem for us later on, we will deal with it then.

[Seppia]

The great thing with kids is they don’t come with an instruction manual.
So what works for one may not work for someone else.
I firmly believe that good people tend to raise good kids regardless of the process they follow. So I’m sure your girl will be a fantastic human being.

[jennypenny]

Want some more advice? ( it's constant once you're a parent) Be flexible. I know you have your preferences, but the baby isn't even here yet. You have no idea what the baby will need/prefer, or what you and your GF will prefer when the time comes. Maybe GF will struggle a little postpartum and need some space. Maybe the baby will sleep better alone. Lots of variables in play -- try not to set yourself up for disappointment if things turn out differently than you're hoping right now.

---

It's funny rereading this thread a few years out. My last kid has launched so it's interesting to reflect on what worked. I think that raising them ERE-style has benefitted them. That is evident in their college and career paths, and it was also evident in how they dealt (effectively) with the pandemic. OTOH, people still give me shit and act like my kids are successful *despite* the fact that we apparently knee-capped them throughout childhood by not overspending or over-parenting. Win some, lose some, I guess.

[theanimal]

Thanks, Jenny. I suppose my post can be read as arrogant and dogmatic. That is not my intention. We are definitely aware that everything is more or less theoretical at the moment and are willing to change so that things work best. Even more so, there is so much that we don't know so I have appreciated reading everyone's suggestions and insights.

I see it the same as kind of how I approach my life. There are a lot of people who say you can't do certain things or you have to live like X. Well, I see Y doing Z which looks cool. Ill try that and if it doesn't work, try again or something else.

There is kind of a legendary family up here that has travelled in the back country (no roads, trails, or towns) with their kids on long trips from infants and on throughout toddler stage and beyond. Long trips meaning like walking 800 mi on the beach around Cook Inlet for 2 mo or skiing 300 mi on the sea ice in the spring on the Seward Peninsula or living at the base of a glacier, hundred plus miles from the nearest town, for a month at the beginning of winter. For me, people like this shatter the glass ceilings and serve as inspiration for what's possible. Here's their site if anyone is interested in reading more: http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org/. She's a writer and has a few books out as well.

[jennypenny]

No worries, you didn't come off as dogmatic. What's that Eisenhower quote? 'Plans are useless but planning is indispensable' or something like that. That's all I meant.

I envy you raising a kid in an area where people are more accepting of individualized approaches to living. Stepford was stifling.

[7Wannabe5]

It has also been my experience that it can be hard to predict which of your own “alternate” behaviors your adult kids will end up modeling, outright rejecting, or reinterpreting in an odd manner. For instance, I never took my son to get his hair cut, I just gave him the occasional buzz cut, so after he left home he just never cut his hair. IOW, instead of getting “do it yourself” from me, he got “something Mom does and/or totally optional.” -lol. And my daughter, was recently telling me about a comedian who has a whole “You know you are the poor kid...” routine to which she could relate due to the fact that I sometimes packed her lunch in a recycled plastic grocery bag.

I did the family bed thing, and I would say it’s a matter of personal druthers. Definite plus would be conserving sleep for breast-feeding mother, because you don’t have to fully rouse yourself to feed the baby. Downside would be unless you install crunchy plastic liner, you will destroy futons/mattresses with all the many forms of leakage going on. Also, your kids will be inclined to occasionally leave their beds and join you until around age 6 or 7 , which is okay unless you have a kicker. Interesting note would be that it’s pretty rare for kids to do it after age 6 or 7. When they’re developmentally ready to go to school or otherwise hang with their peers rather than you, they will also naturally gain the ability to keep to their own beds and even wipe their own butts! consistently.

[mooretrees]

@theanimal, I think you are right on, most American parenting seems based on fear. Fear of the kids getting hurt, left behind economically, blah blah. I think you probably have a lot of skills already either explaining your life to others, or dealing with their reactions to your choices, so you'll be set up to continue doing that with your kiddo. I've realized over the years that I need to communicate to family that we prefer no gifts, or if that's not acceptable, used, natural materials etc....Now that my son is older, it's getting easier to suggest swim lessons in lieu of actual presents for example.

FWIW, I loved sleeping with our son. The pediatrician at the hospital after his birth tried to really dissuade us from sleeping with him. So I found a used co-sleeper and was really stressed. Then, with breastfeeding, like 7w5 says, it's just SOOOOO much better to nurse with a baby next to you at night. One time, early on, DH started to roll over and was about to go on top of our son, I woke from a dead sleep and shot an arm over my baby. I never stressed about sleeping with him in our bed again. Your families experience will vary and you two will be the experts on your baby. I think finding a doctor that is used to alternative parenting styles is also a good idea, if that's possible.

I also envy you having examples of unconventional families nearish. I still struggle to find families that are as weird as we are and I actually will consider how conventional the family is before pursuing a friendship.

[take2]

My DD just turned 3 weeks old. We were lucky in that I had a colleague who has 2 of his own and is done, so he literally gifted us everything you could imagine. In turn we watched his dogs for 2 months whilst he was renovating his place, so it was a win-win exchange.

I wouldn’t have bought most of this stuff myself, but a lot of it has been useful so far. I do agree most of it is unnecessary, but it helped me explain to my family that we don’t need anything bc of it, and also saved it from getting otherwise thrown out.

Best of luck with the pregnancy and raising your little one. I would second @JP’s point to be flexible - my wife was all set for a natural birth but we had to pivot to a c-section given complications. FWIW I didn’t know there were “camps”, but DW and I are firmly in the independent baby sleep camp. I would just caution that you fully think through the consequences of co-sleeping. I’m sure you have, and I’m not here to lecture, but it might help to speak to some who have done it if you haven’t already to hear the good and the bad. We have some friends who haven’t had sex in years (!) as the kid continues to be in their bed.

Regardless, I’m sure you guys will do great however you choose.

[luxagraf]

There are a lot of people who say you can't do certain things or you have to live like X.

As you seem to have noticed, this will dramatically increase the minute you have kids. And, as far as I can tell, the number of people saying that just keeps increasing as time goes on (our twins are about to turn 10, our youngest is 7). You strike me as someone who will keep on doing what you want to do, as you should.

People I don't know tell me all the time I just can't live on a 27 ft RV with three kids, that would be way to little space, and yet somehow, we have for almost five years (give or take a year spent in Mexico).

And for the record, we did the same, all the babies slept in our bed, washed in the sink, etc.

Food though. Growing children can really drive up a food bill. Mine are still young enough that it's negligible, but I can see the day on the horizon when it won't be. haha.

[Laura Ingalls]

My DD just turned 3 weeks old. We were lucky in that I had a colleague who has 2 of his own and is done, so he literally gifted us everything you could imagine. In turn we watched his dogs for 2 months whilst he was renovating his place, so it was a win-win exchange.

I wouldn’t have bought most of this stuff myself, but a lot of it has been useful so far. I do agree most of it is unnecessary, but it helped me explain to my family that we don’t need anything bc of it, and also saved it from getting otherwise thrown out.

Best of luck with the pregnancy and raising your little one. I would second @JP’s point to be flexible - my wife was all set for a natural birth but we had to pivot to a c-section given complications. FWIW I didn’t know there were “camps”, but DW and I are firmly in the independent baby sleep camp. I would just caution that you fully think through the consequences of co-sleeping. I’m sure you have, and I’m not here to lecture, but it might help to speak to some who have done it if you haven’t already to hear the good and the bad. We have some friends who haven’t had sex in years (!) as the kid continues to be in their bed.

Regardless, I’m sure you guys will do great however you choose.

People who cosleep figure sex out. Otherwise we would have lots more only children. We would sneak into a guest room nicknamed the rendezvous room. Not having sex with our partner could be caused by lots of things other than or in addition to cosleeping.

[horsewoman]

It's fascinating how folks have so strong opinions on other people's sleeping habits! Baffles me. When my daughter was 3 a paediatrician asked me if she was sleeping in her own bed? I told him no, and he very condescendingly informed me that it was about time. He didn't like my answer...
Once I've had enough of bed sharing, the transition to her room was over in one week, with very little fuss. Same with breastfeeding (which I did "unnaturally long" according to some sources).

Regarding sex, I second @chendas comment. It's not that hard to figure out other places or times to do the thing, right?

@theanimal - like others have said, you are used to explaining your alternative lifestyle, just do the same regarding your kid(s) and you will be fine.

My kid grew up in a Semi-ERE environment from day one; she is 14 now and very nonmaterialistic compared to her peers. She loves thrift stores for clothes and accessories and has always lots of saved up money, even though she's not getting lots of pocket money. I often check in with her if she feels in any way deprived or neglected - she does not, and I'm pretty sure she'd tell me, for she is very ready to stand up for her self or to complain in general
Her grandparents and uncle like to buy her expensive stuff and are eager for suggestions for birthday/Christmas presents. That way, everyone is happy.

[MBBboy]

We're due here for our son very soon, and were able to get pretty much everything we wanted (and even stuff we didn't want) from the baby shower and used from friends. Due to our incomes and peer group, we have the really nice stuff.....acquired for free or 75%+ off, but still.

@theanimal, if you haven't already, I suggest reading Expecting Better and Crib Sheet - get a data based view of much of the unsolicited advice you get. It's very helpful for some of the conversations you'll have, and may even make you consider new things / reconsider decisions you're thinking about.

Also, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't swear by Happiest Baby on the Block. The 5 S's are the main thing, and the author has done the world a service by making a lot of the info available for free in articles and Youtube videos.

More on topic - we were very thoughtful and deliberate in our prepping and things we put on our registry. Maybe it's a love language thing, but we KNOW that many of the people who love us were going to buy or do something for us, so we decided to just channel that instead of resisting. Otherwise, we'd end up with useless junk like wipe warmers and subscriptions to Freshly instead of good stuff like swaddles, bottles, 529 contributions and baby nail trimmers.

That said, I rolled over to basically everything my very pregnant wife has wanted. All these years of saving for "important stuff in life".....birth of first kid is one of those times it feels right to use some of the advantage you've created.

She wants a new chair in the nursery instead of moving one of the ones in the loft? Fine. She wants a car seat with a load leg to keep him a little bit safer in a crash? Sure! She wants the premier breast pump? I'm not going to be wearing it. All I've done is do my best to WL5 it - crap ton of comp shopping, gaming registry completion bonuses, hitting up friends for used, etc etc. For us, the extra expenditure doesn't really move the needle, so I'm prioritizing peace of mind. Over the years, she's compromised on some of the things she's wanted for the greater financial good......it's giveback time.

[suomalainen]

Second the idea that it's all personal / familial decisions. I, for one, never once considered co-sleeping with my kids. I did, on very rare occasions when they were sick or whatever, sleep with them in their beds until they fell asleep whereupon I would sneak back to my own bed. Personal preference. I've also followed my personal preferences in education, sports activities, medical decisions, etc, etc, etc. I do think it's important to stay open to learning, though, whatever "camp" you may find yourself in. If something's not working for you, a kid or the significant other, you gotta be open to trying things out until you find something that works well enough. Otherwise it's man serving the dogma, not dogma serving the man.