Kids on ERE

[Jen10]

I see a lot of references to raising kids to be happy playing with cardboard boxes, sticks and sand and I shudder. Seriously, I shudder.

I think you misunderstood. My kids are surrounded by tons of toys, books and educational materials. You can't walk through the main cabin of our boat without stepping on a Lego. Despite all that, they prefer, at their current and previous ages, to play with boxes, sticks and sand. They get very excited when they get a box because they immediately want to create something with it or play in it or decorate it. They play "Minecraft" on the beach for hours by digging rivers, buildings and mountains. I think it's great but I am not making them do these things. It's just what they like to do. They like the real Minecraft too, btw. Also, I am not expecting this to continue. I would be disturbed if my 12-year old played exactly the same way as my boys do now.

Your image of a child sent alone to play with a soccer ball in the backyard is indeed a stark one, but a straw man. Just because you don't pay for organized activities doesn't mean that your child is destined to spend his life in isolation.

When we lived in the city, the kids played soccer and basketball at the park district very inexpensively (they also took gymnastics and swimming). They went ice-skating at the city rinks on used skates. They got piano lessons from my friend through barter. There were also lots of opportunities to just play with other neighborhood kids. You know, just like in the old days.

I understand your viewpoint because it is that of mainstream America (I have seen it less here on these forums though) and that collective mentality is a powerful force. It is hard to say that what you know to be right may not be the only right answer for everyone else. I haven't escaped that conditioning entirely and struggle with guilt because my kids are missing the "typical suburban lifestyle." But everything in life is a trade-off and my personal feeling is that this applies to choices you make about your kids as well.

On the one hand, at least for a few years, my kids won't have all the same cultural experiences as other American kids. They won't live down the block from their best friends. They won't be on the travel soccer team in the near future. Their grandmother won't be able to teach them tennis.

On the other hand, they are seeing the world and meeting people from different cultures. They know more about geography than many adults I know and they know some of it from first hand experience. They fish, swim, kayak, paddleboard and surf (sort of). In addition to the basic schoolwork, they get to work on projects that they're interested in rather than being told what they should do every minute of the school day.

Do I know that my kids will turn out okay? Of course not, but neither does the soccer Mom that's spending more money than me on her kids. I am certainly doing what I think is best for them. I don't doubt that costs may go up for the kids--I'll let you know. I'm really hoping the boys don't need braces, for example (my genes are not good on this front).

I do agree that there is a difference between voluntarily raising your kids cheaply and not having a choice. Kids are a big responsibility and should not be brought into this world without a lot of thought. I think most people on this topic are putting a lot more thought into it than most people in general.

Oh, and on the college front, we should have the funds to pay when the time comes but I'm not convinced higher education will be the same in 15 years. Right now the system seems broken and crazy. I personally paid my own way through college and law school. I think it made me a better student and more self-sufficient as a person. But of course, my experiences don't apply to everyone.

[BecaS]

Jacob: "I'll pay for education. I won't pay for entertainment."

DOOD. THAT'S HARSH. NO DISNEY FOR YOU!

You don't mean that. You may not know right now that you don't mean that, but speaking as a parent, I know that you don't mean that.

Seriously. No back yard swing set for your six year old? No movie and popcorn night at home for your eight year old? No sleepovers with pizza for your ten year old? No school dance for your 14 year old? No dress for the prom for your sweet 16?

You'll pay to entertain your kids.

Let me re-frame this and send it back in your direction for further consideration. You pay to entertain yourself, right? It may be a nominal amount. It is surely a discounted amount. You may even barter for your entertainment- but at some level, you pay for entertainment.

You'll pay for your child's entertainment as well. You'll pay for family entertainment. It may not be a multi-thousand dollar vacation at a theme park but you'll pay for the family to have fun together. You'll want those experiences and those memories for your child, and for yourself. And there's not a thing wrong with that.

Jacob: "If the kid wants a smartphone, they can get a job to pay for it."

Dude, I don't own a smart phone. I certainly wouldn't buy one for a child, nor would I pay to support a talk/data plan for a smart phone. We are certainly in agreement on this.

And that's part of my point: I *am* frugal, I have been frugal for a long, long time, perhaps longer than many of you have been on this earth. How do I know that you are setting a monthly budget amount per child that is too low to be realistic? Because I raised two kids. Because I was an early adopter of Amy Dacyczyn's "Tightwad Gazette" compilations. Because I used all of your frugal tips and tricks and some. And I am here to tell you that 20 years ago, my youngest child was 8 years old, and $200/month per child would not have been enough for most months. $1000/year per child would not have been enough, 20 years ago.

It certainly won't be enough now.

My kids remember the things I did to save a buck. They remember it vividly and not always with fondness, although their affinity for frugal living and sacrificing immediate comfort for long term gain is growing as they grow into their adult years and are starting families of their own. My kids will tell you tearful tales of underwear hanging on the line for all to see, and off brand jeans, and no name tennis shoes, and toilet paper that they swore was sandpaper on a roll, and fans in windows instead of central air conditioning, and vegetables grown in the front yard because that's where we got sunshine, and haircuts in the back yard, and no cable t.v.

I'm sure that it cost us more than $200/month per child. I can say this with great certainty because my paycheck covered the cost of the kids and groceries, while my husband's paycheck covered the mortgage and the rest of the bills. Quite often the kids and the groceries ate my entire paycheck and some, and I made a lot more than $400/month.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Per above, allowing $200/month extra per child in the monthly budget, to include food, clothing, public education fees, enrichment, etc. just doesn't seem like enough money to me.

And providing that enrichment, in my opinion, plus feeding, clothing, educating, providing medical care for that child is going to cost more than $200/month or $1000/year over the course of that child's life.

See, the reason the majority on this forum will disagree with you is because of the assumption, implicit in these claims, that "enrichment" requires (a lot of) money. That is the opposite of the philosophy of this forum, which aims to spend money to solve problems only as a last resort.

If Jacob wanted his kid to have a swing set in the backyard, I'm sure he would procure one--for $10-20 of scrap lumber and a few hours of labor (probably shared with said kid as a learning experience). At least that's what I would do.

The one exception I see is special (medical) needs. Almost every other problem--including that of providing children with an enriching environment--can and should be solved with as little reliance on money as possible.

At the same time, that fact is not an attack on you. It's okay that you spent a lot of money raising your kids. Just understand that is not the only way.

[almostthere]

Jen10 amd BecaS, thank you for the discussion. I step off the job into ERE with two small children in seven weeks. My comment is that I can't help but see effects of status on the decsions we make in regard to children. In my own life, I remember very clearly desiring more status as a child and young adult. For example, why aren't my parents members of the country club, like my friends parents? I can also remember mentally comparing the size of my house to that of the house down the road. As an adult, I am surrouded by Ivy League children as adults. I see the effects of priviledge and I also see that we are simply not that much different. After all we both acheived the same level of acheivement 20 years later. I now struggle with how I will deal with providing or not providing this status for my children. It may be simpler with small children and it may be simpler by removing them from the home culture (I am an expat and I don't have to deal as much with the social pressures as much as if I were in America).

[BecaS]

Spartan Warrior: "If Jacob wanted his kid to have a swing set in the backyard, I'm sure he would procure one--for $10-20 of scrap lumber and a few hours of labor (probably shared with said kid as a learning experience). At least that's what I would do."

It's particularly poignant that you mention this example, Spartan. My husband and his father did indeed build our kids' first and only swing set out of treated lumber, in the back yard of our first house, just a few weeks after we moved in.

The power saws fired up in the back yard and doors opened all around us, with guys pouring out to see what was going on over here with the power tools. That's how we met the rest of our neighbors.

I can tell you for a fact that the swing set, which consisted of two swings, one platform and *I think* a sliding board... was a lot more than $10-$20. I remember this because we bought the kit at the local big box home improvement store after pricing out the wood and the components separately. It was cheaper to buy the kit. I remember pricing it out. I'm struggling to recall the price- this was just about 26 years ago- but the number $125 hangs in my mind for some reason. (There goes over half of your $200/month kid budget- but this is, in my mind, a non-example because it is not a repeating cost.) I do remember that it took a chunk out of the budget that month, and that at first I was amazed that such a simple swing set could cost so much. This will make sense to you if you walk through your local big box hardware store. Just price the cost of the chain for the swings, if you don't want to price the entire project. You'll be surprised at how much the chain costs. The chain alone is going to eat up your $10-$20.

Also, there's really no sense in going through the exercise of building the swing set if you don't use treated lumber- and that's going to increase your cost and limit your scraps selection.

And yes, my kids were there for every second of the swing set build, although at ages 2 and 4 I doubt they absorbed many actual construction lessons, just that one can build one's own swing set, which is an important lesson all by itself.

Probably your best bet for a truly cheap swing set is buying used off of Craigslist or getting a free swing set off of Craigslist or Freecycle. Just like there is no such thing as a "free puppy," there's sort of no such thing as a "free swing set." Anybody with a brand spankin' new out of the box swing set is going to want some cash for it. Anything else, and you are going to put some money into it to refurbish it- or you are simply going to put someone else's problem, eyesore, safety hazard in your back yard.

By the time you buy gas to go get that swing set, new hardware and a few cans of Rustoleum or wood stain, you are into your "free swing set" by a few factors more than $10-$20.

And this *is* my point- I think that many of you have your "economies of scale" calibrated incorrectly.

Just because you can choose things for yourself that are free, nearly free, very cheap, or do without entirely as a cost savings alternative, this does not mean that your choices, your level of sacrifice or your personal economy will apply to, or be appropriate for, a child.

And here's where we are talking past each other. Did you read what I wrote up there, Spartan? My poor blighted children endured many frugal hardships, everything I mentioned and some- and we spent a lot more than $200/month per child over 20 years ago.

Nothing that I write here is going to convince you or anybody else. That's OK. It's not my job to teach you Life or The Economies of Child Rearing 101. Your life and your family will teach you more elegantly and more succinctly than I or anyone else can ever tell you about it.

Furthermore, I do sincerely applaud your efforts to raise a family on thrift and frugality. I wish you all the best with that and I do think that many if not most of you will succeed. I think you will have a better quality of life than many of your peers who attempt to buy a boxed life off of the store shelves will have.

I still hold that it's gonna cost you more than $200/month per child, or $1000/year per child, whichever comes first.

Also, I think you are probably going to have more time in the presence of your child(ren) (which is a great thing) but less leisure time and definitely less sleep than you think that your frugal, thrifty, ERE lifestyle is going to provide. I suspect that many of you have a vision of your frugal selves, lounging blissfully on a river bank with your progeny on a beautiful day, replete with cane fishing poles that you constructed in your work shop and worms you dug up out of the back yard.

This can happen. You can make it happen. I want you to send me the postcard so that I *know* for a fact that it happened- that will make me deliriously happy.

Just know that your daily life is going to look a lot more like Amy Dacyczyn's description of fatigue- when an entire, intact slice of home made pizza floats to the top of the dish water as you do the dinner dishes.

It's all good, though, it really is- and I wish you the very best in your endeavors!

[BecaS]

Uh, we had mostly pine trees in our yard, and pine trees don't provide branches that are strong enough to hold a tire swing?

So we had to build the "branch?"

[Spartan_Warrior]

@BecaS:

If I wanted a swing set, I would look for someone seeking help dismantling their fence/deck/other wooden structure and offer to take the scraps off their hands for free, or look for someone who bought too much lumber for an assembly project and buy the extra, or find some other way to procure the necessary material for pennies on the dollar (and I'm sure others here would be even more resourceful than me--cutting down their own lumber comes to mind ). The junkyard near me also offers scrap building material including lumber, chain/rope, etc for a heavy discount. Buying components new in a kit at retail price from a big box hardware store, again, would be my absolute last choice--just as it would be the first choice for an average consumer. (Not saying you are one.)

That is the ERE difference. The solutions come from outside the traditional money economy. You are still thinking in terms of "level of sacrifice" rather than replacing needs with non-monetary solutions.

I agree that it's unlikely you or I will convince each other of our positions. All I can say is there are plenty of parents on this forum who have specified their child care costs are lower than the $18,000/yr that I believe(?) was your estimate. Do you think those people deprived their child, forced (true) "sacrifices" on them (that means more than telling them "no" occasionally), or were otherwise unable to fulfill their needs?

I don't think that is a tenable position any more than it would be to accuse you of spending "too much" money. I'm sure you did what you thought was right and what was best for you in your situation and with your skill set. No judgment, nothing wrong with that. Again, that doesn't mean there aren't alternatives. That's what this site is all about.

[BecaS]

P.S. Where we live, the termites would have eaten your grandfather's barn.

These are minute examples.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to be thrifty while raising kids.

I am saying that it's going to cost you- or *somebody* (your fellow tax payers, relatives, etc.) more than $18,000 to raise a child to the age of majority, 18 years in most places. And I'm not counting college in that figure; most kids go to college after 18 years of age.

[BecaS]

Also, I'm more than willing to subtract intensive medical costs (orthodontics, treatment for chronic conditions, etc.) out of that $200/month per child budget.

I still think it's going to cost you more than $200/month per child, consumer culture or not.

It sort of amazes me to hear adults on the forum reason that if it costs them less than X number of dollars to feed, clothe, house, transport, educate/enrich, and entertain themselves, why should it cost more to do the same for a person half their size?

You aren't talking about buying a puppy here, folks- you are talking about raising a child. It's amazing to me that you've not yet figured out that a growing child is going to be more resource consumption intensive than your adult self is.

On the other hand, I am looking at the process through the rear view mirror.

I guess that I would have had the same logic *before* I had kids.

For those of you who have children, have raised children into their teen years, or into their elementary school years- take a look at your monthly budget for a sample year, add up 12 months of food, the child's portion of an adequate, family-sized dwelling, the child's portion of utilities consumption (water, electricity, heating/cooling, etc.) clothing, school supplies/fees, entertainment, enrichment, transportation, other incidentals (per above, you can leave medical costs out of it) and come back and tell us, really, now many months you spent less than $200/month per child, or less than $1000/year per child, whichever bar you can meet.

There will certainly be *some* months when you spend less than $200/month to house, clothe, feed, provide utilities, educate, enrich, entertain, transport and provide incidentals that are difficult to enumerate for each child.

There will be many months when you spend more- much more.

Ditto $1000/year.

I am *not* discouraging thrift, nor trumpeting "consumer culture" as the only path.

What I am discouraging is the self-assurance based on unrealistic numbers.

Repeating a number a bunch of times doesn't make it realistic. Nor does magical scrap lumber and hardware that magically appear out of thin air, ready to be transformed into a swing set. Yeah. Go pull down that fence that your neighbor no longer wants, tell us how much usable salvage you find. Especially in today's economy, people aren't throwing perfectly good fences out. If you are pulling down fences to build swing sets, you're gonna have to pull down a lot of fences, decks, old swing sets, whatever, to accumulate enough salvage lumber that's in decent enough condition to build a safe structure.

You don't want me to create hardship that requires consumer spending in order to bolster my argument that kids cost more than $200/month on most months. Fair enough.

Don't bolster your argument with piles of perfectly usable free stuff that those lazy, wasteful, stupid consumers are throwing away with both hands. Yes, some of it is out there- but less than you think.

People by in large aren't *that* stupid. {Oh lord, I've done it/ said it now. Let the flaming begin! }

[Spartan_Warrior]

A swing set frame consists of five pieces of lumber--two legs to either side, with support braces in between, and a central beam from which to hang the swing(s), all held together with wood screws. The swing itself is a flat or otherwise seat-like object attached to the frame with rope or chain. If an appropriate tree is available, as bigato pointed out, it's merely a seat-like object and some rope.

Please don't bolster your argument by denying that there are inexpensive non-consumer methods for building a swing set by straw-manning me (nowhere did I mention magical lumber from nowhere the fact that you think along those lines kinda proves my point). I can GUARANTEE, hand to heart, I could build such a structure myself for $20 or less over a few weekends. I would offer to prove this (I'd kinda like a swing myself) but I am very busy with writing projects at the moment.

I'm not going to continue arguing about swing sets. I'll merely wait for your appeal to those with children to come up with their examples. Of course, if they don't, again, plenty of other parents have already offered such examples (IIRC, Jen10 already said ~160/mo on average in this thread; Jennypenny and LiquidSapphire are other members who have, in this thread and others, cited inexpensive child raising costs, albeit without specific numbers to my knowledge).

I'm sorry but your experience raising kids is just that--your experience. Your expenses are not universal. Further, the idea that ERErs going into child-raising have these wildly unrealistic ideas about the costs is also a little condescending. Jacob said it best:

I'll presume that if a given person can figure out how to lead a rich life for a discretionary sum of, say, $1000/year, then their children can also lead a rich life for that sum. Whereas if a given person can't figure it out and lives a life of sacrifice using the same $1000/year, then the same will happen to their children.

And this:

I think the this is the source of the problem. How do you know people walk into it blindly? How do you know it won't be enough?

Hundreds of people have told me some variation of.---that my annual expense is "not enough to live [well] on" and "therefore my life sucks and is one of sacrifice". This is strictly based on observing my annual expense level and extrapolating their own skills based on that. In reality, say based on pictures, or visiting, or talking about activities, neither I nor them can tell why it is that some of them spend 3--6 times as much as I do for the same standard of living.

What they really mean is that they don't know how to live well on that amount and if they did it would suck and they would have to sacrifice.

On that note, it occurs to me that you've framed your spending habits and "cost-cutting measures" as sacrifices throughout this thread. Like I said, I'm certain you did things as inexpensively as you could at your skill level. That does not mean there are not other ways.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Just for curiosity, I priced it out using Home Depot.

2 x 4 x 8 #2 Pressure-Treated Lumber: $2.77 * 6 (1 piece for cross bar, 4 pieces for legs, 1 piece for support braces between legs and swing seat) = $16.62

http://www.homedepot.com/p/2-x-4-x-8-2- ... /100077807


50 ct of 2" wood screws: $5.98 / 2 (probably need 25 screws max for the swing set, rest can be used for something else) = $2.99

http://www.homedepot.com/p/10-x-2-in-Zi ... /100337482

Cost of gas for me since Home Depot is a two minute drive away (or free walk if I use a cart): ~$0.02

All items available with free pick up at my local store.

Total cost: $19.63... oh, but I forgot tax. 6% sales tax brings that up to $20.81.

Guess I misspoke--I'd be 81 cents over the $20 mark, at least if I went to a big box store. Which, again, I would first seek to avoid if at all possible. If the big box store is that cheap, I would at least try to get this down to $10, or free.

Are we done talking about swing sets now?

[jacob]

Swing sets ... here are a few free ones...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/zip/3995227454.html
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/bab/3993124662.html
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/zip/3917409361.html
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/zip/3945747749.html

Have fun.

[jennypenny]

If you take out medical, $200/child/month is an easy target to hit. You can spend more. We do. We choose to add private school to that, but it's not necessary. Even adding private school costs, we live on a 'jacob' per person per year (that will change soon when we pay college tuition but that's a choice and we're only giving the kids enough money for state college--anything over that is on them)

This summer I've spent...
--@$400 on groceries (not sure how to factor in the CSA here? It's about $160 per month of produce for 5 of us) One more trip next week for another $300 maybe. The grocery numbers are for 5 people, not just the kids.

--$170 for clothes for three kids for the school year (high since DS14 grew 5" and 2 shoe sizes this year).

--I've budgeted $100 for uniforms because DS is starting a new school, but I'll roll that forward every year (selling what he's outgrown, buying used from upper classmen), so it's a one time expense.

--Books and supplies for all three were less than $200 and most of that is book money I'll roll forward like the uniforms.

--DS14 has asked for a 'regular' haircut before he starts HS, so a hairdresser friend is going to do it for $15.

--$10 each for the two high schoolers to have their sports forms filled out. Another $35 for DS10's fall sport fee. DS14 needs a better goalie shirt for the turf at his high school. Have no idea what that's going to cost.

--We joined the town pool for $385 and most of their recreation and socializing has been there. DH and I also enjoy the pool so subtract a little for our portion of the membership.

--We went to Florida last week for $700 OOP, so $140 per kid? That money came out of some earnings of mine. If I didn't have that money sitting in my coffee can, we wouldn't have gone.

I think that's it. I don't see anything else in the ledger that's kid related. I guess you can add another $30-40 in utilities per month to those totals for all three (mostly water and electrical usage). It's not that far off of the $200/kid, and those numbers are really high for us because DS is starting HS and this is the second most expensive month of the year with my kids. (December #1) Most months I don't spend any money on clothes, sports, vacations, school supplies, or even entertainment. School, sports, and school or church related social functions keep them really busy during the school year.

[BecaS]

Spartan Warrior, you know nothing of my skill level.

I believe you when you say, hand to heart, that you think you can build a swing set from salvage for $20. I also believe that unless it is a good day and you are living under a charmed star, that swing set is going to cost you more than $20. (Don't forget to factor in the gasoline for your vehicle. You'll need it to transport your salvage home. Also multiply your gas consumption by multiple factors- salvage almost always implies more than one trip- unless your charmed star is so bright that you can find all of the salvage you need for your project from one source.)

Yes, I framed our cost cutting measures as sacrifices rather than lifestyle. My mistake, and you are correct in calling me out on that.

This being said, I'm still living this lifestyle today, at age 54. I guess this state of being speaks louder than any words I might type in testament to lifestyle over sacrifice. We can certainly afford to spend more money than we do, but why? Retirement "for real" looms in front of us- we must save for it- and I for one see that as a reward and a privilege rather than a sacrifice. There are many people on this globe who would love to have such problems.

I am laughing right now, at your reference to me doing things "as inexpensively as you could at your skill level" vs. the money we choose to spend, or not spend.

I spent yesterday pulling out a bed of squash plants that have produced very well, and would have probably produced more but the plants were starting to look scraggly and done. We live in town, on a postage-sized lot. Our garden is in the front yard (again) because that's where our sun is (again.) Out of deference to the neighbors and the general neighborhood aesthetic, I pulled the squash for the sole reason of "keeping up appearances." That's my nod to appearances and consumer culture. Besides, I already have several Ziplock bags of cooked squash and onions in the freezer for later use. One of my cucumber vines, the beans, the tomatoes and the peppers are still going strong.

Today we are expecting some big weather. I'm sitting here contemplating whether I should spend the $0.01 in electricity to wash a load of clothes and put them on the line ahead of the rain. Water and detergent aren't really factors; my high efficiency washer uses only enough water it needs per load of clothes (I haven't researched this but I'm guessing that it has a weight sensor; it has a load sensor of some type) so I'm not going to waste water. We use a miniscule amount of super concentrated laundry powder so that's a negligible factor. On one hand, tomorrow and the next day are supposed to be sunny. On the other hand, I have a good load of clothes in there already, and I want to wash bed linens tomorrow. The bed linens would push me into another load of laundry anyway. I'll check the hourly weather forecast to see which option is likely to yield the most cost savings.

In the meantime, I have cut out several pairs of underpants from knit tops that I'm no longer wearing for various reasons- a stain I can't conquer, a hole in the fabric in a visible place, etc. I can cut around the hole and the stain. My husband fusses at me for making my own underpants- "Seriously, Honey, we can buy you a pack of underpants!"- but why spend the money if I don't have to spend it? I have the skill and the materials on hand to make underwear if I want/need it.

Just for the record- I've done the math. Making my own underpants doesn't save as much as you'd think. By the time I purchase the elastic (puLEEZE don't insist that I salvage elastic from some other used underwear- elastic wears out, dude!) and use thread, electricity to run machines, etc. I'm not saving huge amounts over buying a pack of underpants at the Big Box Discounter.

What I can say is that the underpants I make from knit tops and hanks of elastic are made from sturdier fabric and elastic than the underwear in the bulk package at the Big Box Retailer.

Honestly, buying the package of underwear is likely to yield a more attractive option than home made underpants with zig-zagged elastic waists and legs.

It is possible to buy elastic lace for the waist and legs, but now you are paying more for your knit top underpants than underpants cost at the store. It's cheaper and easier to buy a package of panties at the store.

While I do make some of my own underwear, I usually reserve those pairs for when I'm doing yard work, etc.

Yes, even 54 year old women care about their vanity.

And that is Officially TMI- but don't bust on me about skill sets, Spartan. You have no clue.

[BecaS]

P.S. Spartan, gonna put some swings on that swing set?

[BecaS]

JennyPenny, those are impressive numbers and I applaud you- good for you!

I'm going to ask that you add in housing costs pro-rated for each child, because after all, if it was just you and your spouse, you could live in a much smaller footprint.

Don't forget to include real estate taxes in your housing cost- you are paying taxes as a percentage on your home's value, and your home's value is related to its size. I imagine that your real estate taxes are pretty significant in NOVA. Also include home owner's insurance if it is required by your mortgage company.

If you are renting, then pro-rate the rent for the additional space required to house additional persons.

Also I need some furnishings costs in there- beds, bed linens, etc. Beds, furniture are mostly one time/sunk cost items but they do have to be purchased.

Bed linens, towels, etc. need to be replenished occasionally. No, these are not monthly costs but they are real costs and they do occur. Count them as yearly or bi-annual if you'd like.

Toiletries and hygiene items need to be factored in as well. Again, this is picking on details, but with a budget as tight as $200/month per child, details matter.

[Spartan_Warrior]

P.S. Spartan, gonna put some swings on that swing set?

As I stated, the "extra" piece of lumber would provide a 1.5-2 foot board as a swing. I have nice durable rope already that probably cost ~$5 per 100 ft.

It did occur to me that for the central beam I would probably want a 4x4 rather than a 2x4, and the screws I linked to at 2" long would probably be too short. Too lazy to reprice but I'm guessing $30 is a more reasonable "construction from big box materials" price.

Gas is a very minor expense. I get about 30 mpg due to hypermiling and live in a small town area. Even if I had to commute 50 miles (at which point the effort would no longer be worth it*) it would cost less than $10.

But really I would go with Jacob's solution of looking for free on craigslist.

*Speaking of effort that's not worth it, I consider things like making your own underwear at higher than retail cost and expending serious consideration on whether to do $0.02 worth of laundry, more counterproductive than anything. Personally, I would file these in the "sacrifice" department, and not even worthwhile sacrifice...

[George the original one]

And so another internet discussion thread devolves into "but you didn't count this..."

[BecaS]

No, not "higher than retail cost," there are savings, but given the relative cost of a pack of underwear, it's not as much as you might think in terms of the initial expenditure.

Per above, that being said, the resulting home made underwear is sturdier than store bought. It is, however, less attractive.

Trade offs. I can pull squash and sweat buckets in home made underwear and no one is the wiser. I can save my prissy girlie wear for lounging about. It gets less wear and tear and thus it probably lasts longer.

And now, seriously, I AM GOING TO STOP DISCUSSING MY UNDERWEAR ON THE INTERNETS. Gawd, my husband is going to DIE when he sees this!

P.S. George the Original One, I do concur, we are beyond the forest and the trees in this discussion. We are on the forest floor meeting the termites. Literally. I do believe that I invoked termites earlier in this thread.

The devil is in the details on this one, though, given that we are talking about nurturing, supporting, sustaining and, well, raising children into adults on $1000/year or $200/month. On such a tight budget, per above, details matter.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to raise kids on much less than the average consumer spends on kid-related expenses. I *am* saying that if you want to do this successfully, happily, sustainably, relatively stress-free, it's best to embark upon it with a realistic expenditure amount in mind.

Otherwise you may very well end up in debt and/or hating your life.

[lilacorchid]

LOL, I laughed so much at the swing set example that I almost cried.

Swing set construction kit?

Treated lumber?

oh... my... god!

Here's how we did it:



We've made a lot of these ourselves, I, my sister and our cousins. I don't know how much a piece of rope costed, but the rest was free! And how much fun it was!

Well, good god, spring for some duct tape then. We had one of those out on my grandparent's farm, and all I remember is my sister and I wanting to swing, but not doing it often because we had to pick out fibres from our hands from the shitty rope. Ouch.