The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Toska2
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by Toska2 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:04 pm

Isn't UBI a tribal idea that won't work in a monetary and capitalistic society? Tribes never had corporations with human rights, toxic wastes, low mortality rate and as few hardships.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 5337
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:31 am

I finished the "The Technology Trap" by Carl Benedikt Frey, and I think most members of this forum would agree that he gives the topic of social ramifications of job loss due to AI technologies a fair and balanced analysis. Highly recommend.

The author offers good evidence that the problem is real and already happening in many realms where work tasks are routine or only moderately skilled. He also believes that UBI is not the best solution and suggests the following as more likely to provide better incentive along with social structure safety net.

1) Early childhood education programs to break growing cycle of inter-generational poverty in previous working class rust-belt communities.
2) Vouchers to cover moving expenses so workers can relocate to more vibrant areas.
3) Reduction of building restrictions, zoning codes, licensing requirements, and no-compete contracts along with improvements to public transportation, so workers are better able to afford to live within commuting distance of high affluence/high employment areas and are also better able to quickly change means of livelihood.
4) Wage insurance and expansion of earned income credit program.

One of the most interesting of many interesting visuals in this book showed clear correlation between states where males with level of educational attainment = high school degree voted for Trump in 2016 and the number of multi-purpose (those with flexible ability to be programmed for many different tasks) robots deployed in each state. For instance, the number of multi-purpose robots on the job in the state of Michigan is greater than the number on the job in all the Western states combined.

Another interesting visual was a set of graphs showing educational attainment vs full-time employment status for members of each gender. For women, the growing divide is not nearly as bad as for men. Men with graduate degrees show clear, strong upward trend in earnings and men with only high school degree or only some college show clear, strong downward trend in earnings. One of the results of this gender disparity is great reduction in marriage rate and subsequent growth in single mother households among former working class whites in America over the last 30 years now leading to entrenchment of inter-generational poverty.

trfie
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:35 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by trfie » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:05 pm

latearlyFI wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:32 am
I really do not get it. UBI is a bad idea, but your comparison is other bad ideas? Is it to make UBI look better in comparison?

How about trillions of dollars not be spent on foreign wars?
How about repealing tariffs (which hurt the poor the most)?
How about wealthy countries stop subsidizing their farmers, which is at the expense of their own population + poor farmers in the third world.
Why don't countries stop restricting the flow of immigrants? Has anyone not read/seen pictures of ppl dying in the frightful journeys out of their countries, where they would otherwise starve or be killed by terrorist groups? Why is it so dangerous? It's because it's illegal for them to come (which is why they have to pay exorbitant fees to scammers). Even without any government provisions in the new country, they would be better off being allowed to take the decision of moving to another country, and it dramatically improves the wealth/country they are going to.
Why doesn't the federal government get out of the business of profiting off student loans, which also gives colleges and universities a continuous munificent source of income that allows them to charge ridiculous amounts?
Why doesn't the federal government stop preferential treatment of large corporations?

I could make 100 more suggestions which are all based on extensive data (as well as concordant with common-sense).

In this thread @Campitor, at least, has extensively shown why a UBI is a bad idea.

latearlyFI
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by latearlyFI » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:18 pm

I don't remember who it was on this thread/site, but I know that someone recommended we read, "The War on Normal People", by Andrew Yang, and even said its hard to read at first but ends well. Well! Let me tell you, I stayed up all night unable to put it down before I finished it in early June this year. I was so shocked and impressed by it. Afterwards I looked up the author, (which I only do when I'm very impressed) and was astounded and delighted that he is running for President. I've since researched his policies and watched him on Youtube interviews eg Joe Rogan etc Podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsEzmFamZ8&t=50s

Now I'm a huge supporter of his. I've never felt compelled to donate to a Candidate before as I have with him.

Anyway today they are doing a #yangGangChallenge to write about how you heard of him and I wanted to thank this forum and whoever recommended the book for setting me on the path to know this candidate, he is the only one that gives me hope.

trfie
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:35 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by trfie » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:50 pm

latearlyFI wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:18 am
bigato, well said!

I am a new US Citizen, and I was asked to choose a Political party when I registered in my state. I didn't know. So I've been on a mission to educate myself and talk to people so I can make an informed vote. I've been surprised mostly by the odd collection of issues that represent one side or the other, I mean why does guns correlate with abortion? And I've learned to be careful, people get really mad at you if you even mention liking a Democrat Policy where I live. I like and despise policies of both parties.

I wish we could discuss important issues separately without branding them with a political party. For example, little did I know that caring about the environment was political! I thought it was you know an environmental, earthling issue. Climate change policy should be based on science not politicking..
You are right, the collection of stances on issues makes no sense, but the population has been brainwashed into thinking that such positions are somehow related. IMO one of the most important things is to not affiliate with or contribute to one of the 2 major parties, as they have been colluding for decades to maintain a stranglehold on American politics, to the detriment of other parties and points of view. Some obvious examples are not allowing other candidates into the presidential debates and passing laws in all 50 states that make it very easy for democratic/republican candidates to get on the ballot, and extremely difficult for anyone else. Plus they are beholden to special interests/large corporations/wealthy constituents, even though eg Democrats will pretend that it is the Republicans that are to blame, etc.

latearlyFI
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by latearlyFI » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:57 am

Campitor wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:15 pm
What's your suggestion? If automation causes mass unemployment what's the solution? UBI is the quickest most straightforward way to help people IMO.

latearlyFI
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by latearlyFI » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:06 am

trfie wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:50 pm
You are right, the collection of stances on issues makes no sense, but the population has been brainwashed into thinking that such positions are somehow related. IMO one of the most important things is to not affiliate with or contribute to one of the 2 major parties, as they have been colluding for decades to maintain a stranglehold on American politics, to the detriment of other parties and points of view. Some obvious examples are not allowing other candidates into the presidential debates and passing laws in all 50 states that make it very easy for democratic/republican candidates to get on the ballot, and extremely difficult for anyone else. Plus they are beholden to special interests/large corporations/wealthy constituents, even though eg Democrats will pretend that it is the Republicans that are to blame, etc.

So true, such a shame it's so polarized, it reduces good policy discussion. I think Andrew Yang is really more of an independent. It's a shame he had to run on a Democratic ticket. Interestingly he is picking up a lot of unhappy Trump supporters.

I'm still on the rough road of navigating talking politics. I recently was lectured by someone for mentioning Yang, I was accused to being a baby killer and wanting to make people lazy due to welfare. Ugh I don't like being branded. I've given up talking about it in real life. Just discuss the issues online. I'm an independent and I like Yang's vision.

Campitor
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by Campitor » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:15 pm

latearlyFI wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:57 am
What's your suggestion? If automation causes mass unemployment what's the solution? UBI is the quickest most straightforward way to help people IMO.
  1. Lower the cost of employment for the jobs that are being replaced by automation. Either mandated benefits need to be trimmed or costs reduced (maternity leave, insurance coverage, etc.) or the minimum wage floor must remain low. While major corporations can handle the increased costs, small businesses cannot. Small businesses employ 47.5% of the working population (source: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files ... les-US.pdf). And UBI isn't a long term solution to growing unemployment - the math shows that it's unsustainable.
  2. Eliminate the excessive regulations which makes it too expensive for small businesses to open and/or compete in the market.
  3. Tort reform which limits punitive awards against small businesses. Slipping on a wet floor shouldn't be a lottery win. This drives up insurance costs which impacts small businesses; the money can be used for wages, salaries, and capital improvements.
  4. Remove the zoning laws which sets plot limits and minimum sq footage to excessive sizes which drives up the cost of real estate and rental units.
  5. Remove tariffs on Canadian lumber to lessen the cost of new home construction.
The list can go on and on. Bad government policy has done more to erode the purchasing power of the average American than most people realize; I would include UBI in this category should it be implemented.

theanimal
Posts: 1311
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: Gates of the Arctic
Contact:

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by theanimal » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:54 pm

I forget where I heard it (maybe Eric Weinstein with Joe Rogan? Or Peter Thiel? IDK) but someone was making the argument that most of the jobs to be automated have already been automated. He was arguing against Yang's position that there was this huge wave of automation to come. Most of the factories already have the robots and self driving cars are years down the road/overblown.

For the curious, Scott Alexander's most recent post highlights someone who has gone through each proposal for UBI and has deconstructed whether they are financially feasible or not (spoiler: none are). https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/08/01/s ... ubi-plans/

I've received the PFD in AK for the past 3 years and it really isn't anything like UBI. Sure it's money that's sent every year but the amount is about 10% of being proposed by most advocates. It's not really a fair comparison.

tonyedgecombe
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: The benefits of a basic income // much higher min wage

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 am

I thought HomarusSimpson's post on that was interesting, it is doable but probably not at the levels being promoted.

Post Reply