the animal's journal

[theanimal]

It could be a cultural difference. In the US, 2 language households are not uncommon and are the norm in some areas of the country, especially with Spanish being the 2nd most prevalent language. Beyond skill we are doing it for both cultural and familial purposes. DW is Hispanic, fluent in Spanish and there are other people within the extended family who speak it regularly. And come to think of it, DW had the exact opposite experience of your friend. Her mom immigrated to the US from a Latin American country but refused to teach DW and her siblings spanish. DW feels that being neglected that opportunity was a disservice.

I don't deny that it's possible to learn a language in school but I don't think its as likely as practice and use is more infrequent and proficiency/progress depends more on each individuals eagerness towards learning. From my own example, i took 9 years of Spanish in school and came nowhere close to the level I am now. The school model of lectures is not as conducive to language learning as everyday listening and speakin. Anecdotally, I know of only a handful of my classmates (out of a few hundred) who approached anything close to fluency and typically those only did so because they participated in an immersion program where they spent a semester abroad in Chile. On the other hand my friends wife is from the Czech Republic and their kid is 5 and can both speak and comprehend Czech at a high level, following more or less the same model that we are planning on.

[OutOfTheBlue]

As a bilingual myself (French and Greek), I can definitely vouch for exposing the child to both and all languages from the get go.

Switching languages depending on rooms seems like an unnecessary complication. I think children first associate languages with people, so the best would be that your wife (native Spanish speaker) speaks to/with her in Spanish while you mostly do so in English. But kids ultimately have an uncanny skill in decossiating languages, and the most important is to just actively expose her to both languages. No need to obsess too much over this.

I grew up in Greece, practically surrounded by Greek speakers, went to a Greek school and university.... Yet, I am fully bilingual. Granted, I have lived a few years in France as an adult, and may have superior language sensibility in general, but I am still astounded that I am today able to translate professionally in French (which requires above average native language command). My mother (who also had literary studies and was a private French tutor in Greece) was such a champion in being the face of French for me and my sister.

Past the first few years, it becomes a lot more difficult to learn at a native level (although immersion/comprehensive and compelling input can do wonders even with adults). I agree this should not be postponed and that it'd better not be left to schooling.

[Jean]

2language households are very common in switzerland.
maybe both option have their advantages....I just wanted to let you know that the advantage ar not obvious enough to get out of your way for it. But if your wife is fluent in spanish and really want to do it, that's not really going out of your way.
i ultimately don't know the abswer, and it might be different for every child or parent.

[Seppia]

It's a great idea.
Being multi-language is a great advantage in life, both from a professional and from a personal standpoint in my opinion.

[chenda]

It's a great idea.
Being multi-language is a great advantage in life, both from a professional and from a personal standpoint in my opinion.

I agree. And some people like me suck at language learning so growing up bilingual is a huge benefit imo,

[mathiverse]

Raising your children bilingual sounds like a great idea and I plan to do the same. My partner's upbringing is another success story when it comes to raising children to be multilingual. His parents spoke to him in two non-native languages at home along with his native language and he's fluent in all three languages as an adult.

[Frugalchicos]

Trying to think in Spanish is a great idea. You will develop ways of building sentences, memorize expressions and vocabulary. I remember doing it in English and French when I was in my teens.

As my wife says, speaking multiple languages is a super power. You will be able to relate and understand other cultures better and make friends from all over the world!

[theanimal]

I very, very much enjoyed "The Handcrafted Life of Dick Proenneke" by Monroe Robinson. I should note I am biased. As I have detailed here many pages ago, my discovery of Dick Pronneke and One Man's Wilderness preceded my discovery of ERE by just a few weeks. Dick Proenneke, and subsequently NOLS, changed my life unlike anything else I've read or experienced. This book only further cements that. The Handcrafted Life is a look at the things Proenneke made and how he made them. It is more or less a Pronneke "Fix It Log" and "Make Stuff Log."

Like the original collection of his journal entries, familiar things are covered once more such as building of the cabin, his chimney, the cache, and his woodshed. However, the majority of the book delves into additional material such as his work with 5 gallon gas cans. Aviation gas at the time was carried by pilots in 5 gallon metal cans. 2 cans would fit in an accompanying wooden crate and would often be discarded by pilots after they were used. Dick would find such cans littered in various places around the lake, taking them home and creating alternative uses for them. He fashioned things like wash basins, mortar mixing basin, storage can, hinges for his closets and some of his doors, modified oven for wood stove, bread pan, dust pan and more. He would also bring back tin cans, creating things like his chimney cap, berry pickers, mugs and skillets. Probably most worthy of note is that he created his own crimping tool because he didn't find anything else adequate enough for the job.


Various dish pans for multiple uses


Skis made from spruce trees with gas can bindings


Ice creepers/cleats made out of 5 gallon barrel lid

The book also details Proenneke's social life through gifts and barter. Despite being isolated, Proenneke maintained communication with many friends, acquaintances and strangers through the mail and more frequently in person from the debut of his book on. This correspondence usually involved letters, but also included Proenneke's gifts and barter with others in the form of his created spoons, kitchen utensils, bowls and knives. He once made a knife and gave it to his primary pilot in exchange for free flights to and from his cabin for one year.


His famous door latch

Proenneke operates under the same mindset as many of us here, shunning the idea of consumerism and buying new things just because something has broken. In the mending and repair chapter, there is a picture that illustrates this well. The photo shows Proenneke's boots and a patch that was fastened to cover a hole within another patch.


The details may not be as interesting to many of you as they are to me, but I'd say the mindset and the way he approaches his projects would be of interest to anyone on these boards. Perhaps an embodiment of WL8 actions and thinking (I could be wrong, I don't understand WL8 and above that well). Proenneke has more constraints than most of us have, but he was able to create beautiful things out of what he did have with a limited set of tools. He was a craftsman, but not a perfectionist. Finding things that would work just right for his purposes, while taking no shortcuts, so that he could go out and do things like hike, canoe and watch/film animals. His skills are something that I aspire to attain, being able to use raw or discarded materials for the vast majority of things I need, largely independent of the industrialized economy.

As I said, recommended! There are many, many more photos and stories within the book.

[AxelHeyst]

This is super inspiring animal, thanks for sharing. Added to my books to forage list...

[jacob]

Perhaps an embodiment of WL8 actions and thinking (I could be wrong, I don't understand WL8 and above that well). Proenneke has more constraints than most of us have, but he was able to create beautiful things out of what he did have with a limited set of tools. He was a craftsman, but not a perfectionist. Finding things that would work just right for his purposes, while taking no shortcuts, so that he could go out and do things like hike, canoe and watch/film animals. His skills are something that I aspire to attain, being able to use raw or discarded materials for the vast majority of things I need, largely independent of the industrialized economy.

I think so. Also see https://wiki.earlyretirementextreme.com ... ualization At this point every thing becomes a potential input that can be combined in any number of ways. Contrast with WL6 where activities are still separated by individual mental boxes of skills, tools, and parts. At WL7 awareness of these boxes becomes consciously competent---people start deliberately designing systems. At WL8 the boxes fall away. It's all one big box.

The limits of WL8 is how it's focused on one's personal box. Even if one is not a hermit and include other people, like e.g. the Something for Nothing log, the focus on the box is centered on one's person. Just like FIRE eventually feels like it should be a basic adulting skill---why isn't everyone FIRE?!?---multiskilled competence begin to show a S-curve effects. After a certain NW, adding more NW becomes less meaningful unless you can make a game out of it. Similarly, after a certain skillbase and input/output integration, going from 95% to 98% efficiency becomes less meaningful unless you can make a game out of it. For example, having mastered $5k/year one might go for $2k/year ... but why bother when $5/3% is so easy already? At WL8, you've basically mastered your environment... or up to about zone 4 in permaculture vernacular.

So WL9 increases the scope. This is where integration expands beyond the concerns of household. It's ERE at the world-centric level or ERE2.0. Permaculture has zone 5 as the infinity boundary, but clearly most humans don't live in isolated enclaves surrounded by wilderness whether it's actual nature or simply culture. Zones 3, 4, 5, say, overlap ... and so WL9 focus changes to those overlaps and gaps.

[Western Red Cedar]

So WL9 increases the scope. This is where integration expands beyond the concerns of household. It's ERE at the world-centric level or ERE2.0.

This is why I think Proenneke is a good example of WL 8+. Although he was focused on living a meaningful life of simplicity in the wilderness, he spent a lot of time documenting his work for a broader audience when it would have been much easier to forego the filmmaking and writing. I think his vision extended beyond the personal.

@theanimal - One observation on his approach to consumption and conscious reuse of materials is that it was more established in the cultural paradigm for his generation. Thrift and reuse were the norm for people who grew up in the depression or during WWII. It was always extremely apparent when interacting with my grandparents. Waste was almost an immoral act.

[AnalyticalEngine]

I could be completely wrong here, but I'm wondering if it makes sense to align the ERE Wheaton levels with the MHC levels. For example:

WL7 = systems thinking
WL8 = metasystems thinking
WL9 = paradigmic thinking
WL10 = metaparadigmic thinking

This would explain the transition from WL8 (individual box) to WL9 (social box aka paradigm).

[jacob]

This is why I think Proenneke is a good example of WL 8+. Although he was focused on living a meaningful life of simplicity in the wilderness, he spent a lot of time documenting his work for a broader audience when it would have been much easier to forego the filmmaking and writing. I think his vision extended beyond the personal.

Yup. There's a distinct difference between passively absorbing and actively putting oneself out there to set an example to prepare the ground/foothold for the next level. Similar to the difference between lurkers, commentators, and contributors.

I could be completely wrong here, but I'm wondering if it makes sense to align the ERE Wheaton levels with the MHC levels. For example:

WL7 = systems thinking
WL8 = metasystems thinking
WL9 = paradigmic thinking
WL10 = metaparadigmic thinking

This would explain the transition from WL8 (individual box) to WL9 (social box aka paradigm).

It makes a lot of sense. After learning about MHC, it fits within my framework too. There's a shitload of human development models that all match up. We're all having the same thought. So many approaches all reaching the same conclusion. Started consolidating [and independently discovering] this some five years ago only to realize that Wilber had already done it two decades ago. ARGH! My mistake of wasting 30 days in the lab when 1 day in the library would have sufficed.

Add: So basically, the theory is already there. What remains is developing the praxis.

[theanimal]

So WL9 could be akin to a mentor or some type of community leader? Now, after having mastered their own individual environment and having set the example they offer a helping hand and guidance? If that's the case then I could certainly see that with Proennneke. As his videos and photos directly resulted in the creation of Lake Clark National Park, which encompasses the area surrounding his cabin, and furthered similar conservation efforts elsewhere.

Also, what are MHC levels? Can anyone deacronomize? My search engines are failing me.

[jacob]

Also, what are MHC levels? Can anyone deacronomize? My search engines are failing me.

See viewtopic.php?t=12305

[AnalyticalEngine]

Also, what are MHC levels? Can anyone deacronomize? My search engines are failing me.

The info about them is also posted on the metamodernism website here:
https://metamoderna.org/what-is-the-mhc/

[AnalyticalEngine]

So WL9 could be akin to a mentor or some type of community leader? Now, after having mastered their own individual environment and having set the example they offer a helping hand and guidance? If that's the case then I could certainly see that with Proennneke. As his videos and photos directly resulted in the creation of Lake Clark National Park, which encompasses the area surrounding his cabin, and furthered similar conservation efforts elsewhere.

I see WL9 as someone who communicates a paradigm, where a paradigm is a method of thinking that gives values and structure to all other thoughts. Critically, thoughts when compared across paradigms aren't congruent because paradigms don't share a common langauge. That is, because a paradigm is what structures thought, what is valid under one paradigm isn't valid under another. Someone who is WL9 embodies a new paradigm and is able to connect that paradigm with other people, essentially creating a new culture and mode of social organization.

Good video with more on paradigms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIJ8yAfWEIw

(sorry for the double post; I was having trouble editing the last post)

[guitarplayer]

Communicating across paradigms is hard work, like translating from one language into another with different grammar. Or maybe more like trying to play a song with paint.

Paradigms are a big deal in psychology as psychologists cannot agree on anything. Some authors make the effort, like for example in 1950 Dollard and Miller translated psychoanalytical theory into the language of behaviourism.

I think by the way that it would be nice to have another J.L. Fisker book, if not for any innovative ideas (because all was already said), then for the style of delivery. I really enjoy the ERE book for the style!

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe the paradigm shift is the way we have become accustomed to a hard dichotomy or quick channel shift between levels of technology. The medium is the message. The medium is not the message. etc.

[candide]

This led to an interesting afternoon of YouTube videos. Most are easy enough to find, but I want to point out this bit from a newer documentary from what looks like a local news station, but it talks about his door and hinges and then other things he made. I have it queued up to this part:


https://youtu.be/Hq_RchNo4_c?t=576

But I did enjoy the whole thing. Really well made for that type of show.