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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:19 am
by Spartan_Warrior
I have a feeling I'm overreacting and being a complete asshole about this, which is why I'm turning to the best and brightest folks I know for advice.
I live in a typical suburban area with small (~10,000 sq ft) lots. To make a long story short, I do not particularly like my neighbors on one side. Within a few weeks of my moving in they had erected a large and unsightly tree house on the border of their property, basically overlooking my master bathroom window, which I immediately saw as diminishing my privacy and property value. I've held a secret grudge ever since. They're also host to loud late night redneck parties over their fire pit. And yet, they're friendly--annoyingly so. Like, I avoid mowing my grass when they're out there because I don't want to get sucked into a half hour conversation.
Petty and anti-social grudges, perhaps, but like I said, long story short, I'm not the biggest fans of them. So perhaps that's coloring my reaction to the latest infringement.
Anyway, they're now building a chicken coop next to their tree house thing, which is essentially a foot away from the low-lying fence on the border of my property. This puts it about ten feet from my house.
The thing is still in the building stages and they haven't yet gotten any livestock. I know nothing about their intentions as far as how many chickens they'll have, whether they'll have noisy roosters, how well they'll maintain it to alleviate any odor, etc. All I know is they're building yet another annoying structure basically on the border of my property. I didn't even receive a courtesy heads up.
As far as I'm aware, based on my own research into animal husbandry, it's illegal under county law in this area to have a chicken coop less than 200 ft from any residence. I've emailed the local county officials to confirm this and get more info on relevant laws for backyard chicken coops (which means it should be about two months before I get a response).
Anyway, I guess I'm looking for thoughts on this--either to calm me down or fuel my indignation. Would this bother anyone else? How big a disturbance could this become in terms of noise/odor? What would you do about it, if anything? Report them to the county? Ask them politely to relocate the coop away from my property's border with the subtle threat that raising chickens is in fact illegal (my current top choice)? Or take the "can't beat em, join em" approach--bury the hatchet/make nice and try to get free eggs? Or simply follow their example and proceed to raise my own illegal chickens?
(And don't even tell me this is a good example of why to rent instead of buy. I've already reached that conclusion and it doesn't help me now.)
If nothing else, I've been wanting to build a tall-ass fence for a while and now I really, really want to. Wonder how expensive that would be.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:51 am
by RealPerson
Very annoying. If your neighbors are sincerely friendly, maybe you want to have an honest conversation with them to explain your concerns and frustration. If they don't respond favorably, you might mention that you are excited about raising lions next to the chicken coop. Just mention that you are concerned about the safety of their kids with those big cats, and advise them to keep the kids indoors, just in case!
The tree house is really an invasion of privacy. Surely this goes against a city ordinance. You might just have a city official come by. We had an issue with a huge dead tree close to the property line. We were concerned about the safety of us and of our house. The city arborist just "happened to stop by" and he required the removal of the tree within 14 days. If it did not happen, the city would forcibly take the tree down at the owner's expense. The tree got removed. Problem solved. You could do something similar.
I would not build the fence. You are providing a solution and paying for a problem they created. It would just encourage them to do more stuff you don't like.
Good luck. These neighbor issues can be a real drag.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:57 am
by JohnnyH
What is your time frame on this house?... It's quite likely you will outlast them. In addition, approach with extreme caution; petty suburban neighbor fights can easily last for generations and escalate to major headaches... One hasty comment is not worth years of walking on eggshells.
Also, a good neighbor, say one that gives you eggs and watches your house is a great thing.
I've lived in two places in town that had chickens neighboring. In one case, I didn't even know there were chickens until about a year later when I saw the hens pecking around in the garden. I neither smelled nor heard them but I wasn't actively looking for things that influenced my property values.
They had maybe 3-4 hens at most, which is permitted here (no roosters)... A rooster in town is pretty much a party foul and probably not permitted if it is addressed in city zoning. On zoning, I'd wait to file a complaint until other solutions are exhausted. They might play detective and hold a grudge.
I could recommend a few breeds of dog that will almost certainly "play" with these chickens :/... Or some plants that will help hide the fence.
Also, getting comfortably numb and taking a date over to one of these redneck parties might be a politically wise move. Drink beforehand and use date to extricate yourself.
The treehouse/observation post is a little disconcerting... Perhaps use date to express privacy concern at party?


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:18 am
by Spartan_Warrior
@RealPerson: "you might mention that you are excited about raising lions next to the chicken coop."
Haha, I thought about something similar. Telling them if they want to raise chickens I intend to start a rottweiler puppy mill/guard dog training school. :)
@JohnnyH:
"One hasty comment is not worth years of walking on eggshells."
Oh, you. I see what you did there. :P I do agree though. I don't want to be the one to start the blood feud unless I really have no choice.
Thanks for the ideas, both of you. I'm glad for the sympathetic ears and don't feel quite so irrational now. I may just have to buddy up to them a bit and talk about it (I've actually been able to avoid them since the summer time, but I'm sure if I spent some time raking leaves/other yardwork the wife, at least, would come out of the wood work). As far as the treehouse, I feel like it's a little late for that (without dire measures e.g. calling in city ordinances) as it's already built and established. But it's still early enough in the chicken coop situation that I feel like it's at least conceivable that I could get them to move it away from my immediate border, if nothing else.
Oh, and my timeframe is at least nine years as of now, as that's my ERE date. So it's true I might outlast the neighbors. I doubt they'll take their treehouse with them though. (The chickens, yeah. One would hope.)


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:36 am
by RealPerson
@Spartan_Warrior - " I feel like it's a little late for that (without dire measures e.g. calling in city ordinances) as it's already built and established."
You could have the appropriate city official happen to come by and notice the problem. The nice thing is, the city is the bad guy, not you. They are just enforcing the laws. In my town, the city forced someone to take down an entire barn that was a foot higher than ordinance permitted. The owner was given an ultimatum: tear it down or we will bulldoze it at your expense. The barn is gone. One can hope.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:39 am
by EMJ
If well kept with clean coop a handful of chickens are hardly noticeable.

Real eggs and manure can be good neighbor benefits.
This might not be a problem.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:23 pm
by Ego
@Spartan, "(And don't even tell me this is a good example of why to rent instead of buy. I've already reached that conclusion and it doesn't help me now.)
You've preemptively taken all of the fun out of my response. :)
You might try something like this the next time you see them doing yard work.
SW, "Hey, I saw you were building something next to the fence. What is it?"
Neighbor, "It's a chicken coop."
SW, "A chicken coop! I always wanted one of those! My buddy Charlie who used to live in AdjacentNeighborhood built one a few years ago but a realtors called the city. They made him take it down. I guess his rooster was really loud. What type of chicken..."
Ask questions. Be extremely positive and interested. Open a dialog. Hopefully they'll give you some eggs.
If the noise or smell is bad you can then decide to address the issue with them directly or call the city.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:16 pm
by Spartan_Warrior
@Ego: "You've preemptively taken all of the fun out of my response. :)"
LOL, I know. Would you believe, I included that line specifically for you? ;) Good points though.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:19 pm
by JasonR
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:44 pm
by Riggerjack
It's good to live in the country! I remember suburban life, and my rule of thumb was always do what you want on your property.
As such, the treehouse should not be see as an imposition, neither should the coop.
Fix the treehouse with bamboo, and so far, you haven't identified a problem with the coop.
I understand the need/desire for privacy, but you are a property owner now. Making your property the way you want it is your right and responsibility.
Tall hedges and a waterfall, and done.
Just my 2 cents.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:44 pm
by Spartan_Warrior
I wish something like bamboo or leyland cypress trees were a solution. Unfortunately this area is on the north side of my house, in nearly perpetual shade from four very tall trees (three spindly-type evergreens on my property and the large deciduous tree on theirs to which the treehouse/observation tower is attached). A natural privacy hedge doesn't seem to be in the cards--I don't want to waste money or time trying to grow plants in a bad location. Nor does there seem to be any other cheap solution that I can do on my own property. I do need a shed myself at some point and fully intend to make it in that area of the yard and as long as is feasible to serve double duty as a sort of fence and sound barrier. But that is rather expensive. So is a tall privacy fence, and I don't know of many 25 foot tall fences that would block said observation tower anyway. Since I moved in I've simply given up the use of that window and keep it closed, blinds permanently down.
Oh, btw, according to wikipedia, "The Red-tailed Hawk (Buteo jamaicensis) is a bird of prey, one of three species colloquially known in the United States as the "chickenhawk," though it rarely preys on standard sized chickens."
Darn! :P
It is frustrating.. sometimes I feel like these people are going to single-handedly make me turn this into a rental unit and get out of here. That's the "nuclear bomb" solution.
I agree that living in the country beats this crap and it's making me doubt the permanency of my stay here. I need acreage after all. On the other hand, trying to live like you're in the country when you're in the suburbs is exactly the problem.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:48 pm
by JohnnyH
lol@ releasing the clandestinely trained hawk during thunderstorm! xD
I'm guessing no HOA?... Otherwise invite a handful of HOA busybodies over for drinks.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:19 pm
by C40
Some of my friends have or recently had chickens.
You absolutely do not want a rooster right outside your bedroom. The noise from the hens might bother you also. They cluck after laying an egg, and maybe in the mornings. They also scratch around in the coop before laying.
One friend had his coop against his house below his 2nd floor bedroom and the noise bothered them enough to move it to the back of their yard. Then they got rid of them altogether, I think because they were worried the noise (hens only) might bother neighbors, and I think they weren't allowed where they live.
I guess it depends a lot on your tolerance of noise, and on proximity. Another friend had a rooster and he killed it after it started cock-doodling or whatever, but he said some of his neighbors wanted him to keep the rooster. ... So ymmv I guess.
One thing is that, as far as I know, the normal place to put the coop (in a city) is at the back of your yard, basically as far as possible from all houses. This is a case where some friendliness and bs'ing with your neighbors every once in a while could pay off - they would be more open to your request to put the coop at the back of their yard.


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:29 pm
by justjohn
From your description, I would have to say you are overreacting and being an asshole. On a scale of 1 to 10, these neighbors sounds like a 6 (above average). Things could be oh-so-much worse.
Can't you tilt the bathroom blinds so the treehouse can't see in well, but you still get daylight & fresh air? If not, seems like there would be <$5 solution in frosted stick-on window cling, or something. Is it even a problem? Unless there is a teenage male in the treehouse, and you have a hot girlfriend, where's the issue?
You should applaud their efforts to get the kids out of the house and active. It seems like 90% of kids today spend all their time on video games & social media.
And wait and see if the chickens are a problem before making an issue of it.
But I should mention that I'm saying this from the seclusion of a 25 acre farm, nearest neighbor is about 500'. They re-did their old farmhouse in stucco, which I personally object to. But I still think it is a free country and they can do what they want on their property. If you are living in close quarters, the onus is on you to create and maintain your private space. (PS - one reason we are on 20+ acres is that means we can have whatever livestock we desire. I was very surprised when cities starting legalizing chickens, never thought that would happen)


Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 pm
by George the original one
Your neighbors may be in violation of several zoning laws that are common in urban single-family residential locales: setback from property line (this is a fire safety issue), height of structure, and lack of building permit.
If they do keep chickens, these are usually considered livestock. A few cities (Portland, Oregon) will let you keep a minimal number as pets, usually no more than 5 and no roosters. There may also be regulations regarding how much yard space is required when they are allowed.
***
Having said that, the first thing you should do is talk to your neighbors. Let them know your concerns and ask them what they're going to do. Remind them in a friendly way that no one is above the law, so it would be in their interests to not do something they will regret and that it is their responsibility to make sure they aren't doing something illegal.
For your part, remember that there is the legal phrase "what would a prudent person do?"


Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:08 am
by Spartan_Warrior
No, no HOA. If only it were that easy. Never thought I'd *want* an HOA...
There are no teenage boys using the tree house at the moment; in fact their children are younger--one seeming sub-elementary school age--to the point where IMO it's a little dangerous having them monkey around up there. The tree house is more an irritation in terms of damaging my property value though admittedly this is not an issue until/unless I go to sell. Again, this structure was erected within a few weeks of my moving in. It was an unpleasant hidden factor that may have impacted my decision in the first place, like finding mold in the basement or something. I really only brought it up in service of the point that I'm not very enthused by these neighbors already.
I heard back from the county government with a decidedly surprising response indicating that on lots with less than one acre there's little issue with building a dog house-sized coop, apparently anywhere on the property, without a permit, and having up to six chickens (hens or roosters). Although they do mention "If there would be a nuisance complaint because of the animals they may have to be removed". This is in contrast to what I had heard (and indeed to some references in the code, as far as I can interpret) regarding a 200 ft distance from residences and other residential lots for "agricultural" buildings.
Now, there may be additional guidelines for the city district. I haven't checked on that.
I'm thinking I'll take the wait and see approach at this point before I even say anything. If it's not a nuisance I'll make nice, hope for free eggs, and maybe even house my own chickens (like I said, I was interested in doing this myself before someone made me aware of laws that apparently don't exist). If it IS a nuisance in terms of noise or odor, I'll talk to them about it before filing a complaint. I don't want animals to suffer needlessly so if nothing else I'd want the neighbors to have time to find a new home for them before bringing down the law hammer anyway.


Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:53 am
by Dream of Freedom
I'm surprised at you guys. These people are saving money and doing it in and ecologically friendly manner. Core ere values. This family is probably a close cousin to the renascence man, what Jacob would call a Wr if you read the book. Yes chickens stink if you don't clean up the feces. You should tell them of your concerns and ask them to move it away from you, but to use the government and even dogs against them? Comeon. If you didn't make as much, you might be considering the same thing to save/make a little more.


Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:15 am
by Spartan_Warrior
@Dream of Freedom: To be fair I did consider (and now am considering again) doing the same thing, but I also consider the applicable laws as well as appropriate standards of conduct when living in close quarters with others whose preferences may not match your own. Again, I am in the suburbs with tiny, <.25 acre lots, not the country. Would you say the same thing if they brought in a herd of goats and sheep or started shooting deer for food on their property?


Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:56 am
by Dream of Freedom
They aren't. And shooting deer is different in that it is a safety issue. I guess I just see this whole thing as an overreaction. If these people are half as nice as you claim (politeness doesn't always = nice) communication should go a long ways. If it doesn't I guess it depends on how much it affects you, but I would be slow on the trigger. You don't know how much what you do or will do ruffles their feathers (pun intended).


Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:11 am
by Spartan_Warrior
Well, maybe so. Right now my plan of escalation is: 1) wait and see, 2) ask them to move it away from my property line, 3) report as nuisance, 4) become red tailed hawk-wielding super-villain vigilante.