Early Retirement Extreme Forums

We've all seen the horrific/laughable figures that claim it costs 500k in a lifetime per child and such, but these seem to be created by the same dumb consumers who claim retirement at 65 requires 2 million.
Personally, I'm not exactly at (or even close to) the stage of life where I'm really considering kids--and for a long while I was pretty sure I didn't want them--but the "What if you decide to have kids?" objection is common enough that I'm interested in the subject.
So what IF I decide to have kids? Any ERErs have input in this area? I know some of you out there have raised a family. How has it impacted your budget and retirement goals?
(Note I'm more interested in the financial side, not so much in arguments for or against having kids, as that side of the equation has been discussed before.)

I have a two year old and one more on the way. So from an early perspective only, the cost has been close to zero. I saved money to ERE before DD was born, DH will still work for a few more years since he was in school and not saving much for many years. So we do not spend on child care. We choose low-cost free activities and have lots of hand me downs/used things. We also breastfed, did partial elimination communication, are carless, baby-wear and co-sleep, which shrinks other big early costs (formula, diapers, car seat, stroller, baby furniture). Right now the tax breaks off-set most of our added costs.
I am sure things will go up down the road if we want to travel, add selective activities in, etc. Someone else will have to speak to that. There is lots of peer pressure from the parenting world to spend on lots of things, so you have to be confident in yourself as a parent. Lots of people I know sign up kids for activities because they do not think they can provide a stimulating enough environment for their child on their own. They pays hundreds of dollars to sit in a circle with other moms and sing songs with their kids. Crazy in my world view, an essential jump start for their child from their perspective.

I have two teenage children. I would say it has been quite expensive to raise them. With 2 careers we paid for day care, which was expensive even back then. The kids were and still are in many activities. There is virtually no limit to what you can sign your kids up for. Now, you can choose not to sign up for softball, football, soccer or whatever the sport may be. That would save money paid for team dues, uniforms, etc but it would make it difficult for your child to participate in these types of activities as they get older. It boils down to a choice.
My kids have always been in public schools, but that is not free. There are many fees to be paid, and then their are school trips etc. You can choose not to sign your child up, but it does leave them out. For example, if the band goes on a trip overseas, it is hard to tell your child that they are not going.
College expenses are the other part. If your child gets a "full ride", that is great. However, that is hard to predict when they are 10 years old. So you have to financially prepare for college. You certainly can plan for a "regular" school instead of the Ivy League, but even a 4 year education at a reasonably priced state college is still a lot of money. Just think of 4 years of living expenses. You can have them go to a local community college and live at home, but DW and I are truly tired of the messes everywhere. Let's just say that our kids are not neat freaks and we look forward to having the house to ourselves again. If you've been there, you know what I am talking about. Maybe your child wants to learn a trade or join the military, so college is not a concern. Again, you would not know that in elementary school and still need to prepare.
In the end, though, it matters that you have an FI/ERE mindset from the beginning. You can get much more creative than we have been. With an conscious ERE effort, you can better control the cost. No matter what, having children will significantly push back your FI/ERE date.

Check out J$ Money at www.budgetsaresexy.com.
That's the name I swear!
He just had a kid and he's recording every expense in a baby tracker. http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/2012/06/u ... s-tracker/
He's at 2.7k so far and the baby was born in July.

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Yes, I highly recommend starting from seed. Buying them on the black market is pricey.

LOL dragoncar--starting from seed is also a lot more fun!
There's a lot on the wiki under the Children and Pets section about costs. It's also listed under Frequently Raised Objections. It doesn't have to be a lot. You just have to have a thick skin, because competition between parents can be fierce. I think the biggest financial issues for us were 1) we weren't comfortable with the public school system so that cost was high, and 2) it's harder to uproot kids to take advantage of opportunities. It can be done, but it's harder. I'm not sure how you quantify that.

The question is, how much do you want to spend? For me it's going to delay ER for a year, maybe two.
For the most part the expenses are incremental. The grocery bill is a little higher, the odd copay, and baby supplies. You can be frugal and have everything you need without straying too far from your budget. Garage sales are a bonanza for cheap baby goods.
Two exceptions are:

- Delivery costs. A week in a hospital X2 is pricey. Without good corporate insurance, this would have been significant.
- Childcare. Tax breaks help with this, but it's about 20% of my monthly expenses.
I never really thought about it pre-kids, but kids will make ER(E) so much more fun. Imagine having low-stress and all the quality time in the world to spend with family!

Wiki article was helpful, thanks. I'll take a look at the budgetsaresexy blog tomorrow at work (assuming it's not blocked >:).
In my ideal world, childcare costs would be obviated by my being ERE already and thus a stay-at-home parent. In fact, this is one of the underlying motivators for ERE in the first place--more time available for family. On the other hand, I understand complications could arise as the parents' age increases, so 35 might already be pushing it.
@dot_com_vet: A year or two added to the timeframe per kid is about what I would anticipate. I could swallow that.
I feel like I'd be "that dad" who tells the kid to get a part-time job when he's 13 if he wants to join the soccer team or whatever. With a few exceptions, I was never really involved in anything like that and feel like I had quite a happy childhood. My idea of a fun summer was making toys out of cardboard or popsicle sticks and googly-eyes (no lie). Same thing for college. I worked part-time, got scholarships, and took out loans to pay for my education. (Granted, my parents took out some loans too.) Maybe I'm projecting my experiences a little or expecting too much...?
Public schools are very good in my area too, for that matter. (It's the same county where I grew up.)

I think beginning the ERE journey before you have kids will dramatically impact the overall costs of raising them. You can plan for living in a place where the schools are to your liking. I love sports and music and believe they are great activities for kids to get involved in. The costs of participating in sports varies a lot and you can let you child pick from amongst the more affordable choices available. That was my option growing up and I still landed a scholarship for sports to pay for college. If you want them to have cultural experiences they can skip the international trip with the foreign language class and take the whole family abroad for a much complete experience because you are tied to a job. Yeah they can't hang in Spain with their friends for a week, but they can hang with their friends at home and for the same price the whole family can spend a month in Central America. You have lots of options if you are already ERE when raising kids that those who are tied to work do not have. They have to spend there kids on expense trips because they don't have free time to spend with them. Also if you are not working you have more time to develop friendships with other families that are like-minded, potentially creating a better peer group for keeping costs in line.
We anticipate DH will likely work a year or two longer than if were just us, mostly because with kids it just feels better to have a bigger buffer. Still he should easily be able ERE if he chooses to while the kids are in elementary school. Gotta make sure both parents are on board and you start from the beginning. I imagine changing the rules on preteens or playing one parent against the other will causing lots of conflict and make keeping costs in line much more challenging and stressful on everyone.

Don't forget the iPhone with loaded data plan for your 10 year-old, the designer clothes, spring break in the Caymans, fancy private school, piano lessons, set of custom made golf clubs, DL and car at 16 ........oops wrong blog!
Seriously, you should think about need for larger house, maybe bigger vehicle, lots more food for growing teenagers, tons more laundry, the many gallons of milk and the HUGE jump in automobile insurance. Many of these costs are so intertwined, it would be very hard to separate this all out. Just grow them from seed and enjoy them.

I have two teenagers and it has not been that expensive to raise them besides a few things. Our income has ranged from $18k to $60K in their lives and we have still managed to save a good chunk of $.
One biggie though is they were never in daycare so that saved tons. When the 1st was little dh and I worked opposite shifts. The grandmas took turns taking him a few hours a day so dh could sleep. When we had the second I cut back to just a few hours a week and the grandmas still took turns until both kids were in school. Dh switched to days.
I did lots of second hand shopping or bought clearance clothes at the end of seasons so no huge expense there. Our school district has a cap of $100 a family per year for sports. So that was only $100 a year plus gas to get to games and equipment if the kids didn't like what the school had. Yes, there were some expensive school trips here and there but they were no that often.
We did a lot of free activities, art, hiking, swimming, fishing etc for fun. They were constantly adding on to their forts out in the field as were all their friends.
I gave my kids allowance and the had to budget for some of the fun stuff they wanted. My teens both have cell phones etc that they pay for with their jobs.
My younger teen is a walking calculator on bargains. He looks like a fashion plate for a fraction of the cost because it is important to him. He even won the vote in school for best dressed guy. Kind of funny since he spends so little. He hits the high end brand used stores that cater to teens and 20's with their coupons, discount cards etc on sale days and is an internet clearance shopper fully able to stack coupon codes etc. He know what we will spend per year for his clothes and makes it really stretch. Not that we don't throw a bit more in here and there because we do.
My older son could care less about that stuff but likes to sink his spare $ into his pride and joy car.
The things that have been expensive are a few things that were totally necessary like orthodontics ( 10% discount for paying cash up front though), a tutor when one child was really struggling, and two surgeries co pays etc. What we will be paying for college is expensive but it is our choice. Auto insurance with teenage boys is very expensive. However college and auto insurance could be things a kid pays for themselves in many cases or chip in for.
There were a few $$$ things we chose like a Disney vacation too.
Oh and 6 ft 4 and 6 ft 2 teenage boys eat a lot!!! Especially the younger 6 ft 4 child.
I think part of kids being so expensive is parents never saying no. My kids had all the gizmos and games but they saved their allowance / job $ or they were birthday and Christmas gifts. We felt no pressure for the kids to have a Wii etc as soon as it hit the stores.
My kids bought their own prepay cell plans. I thought it was pretty sad when you can't find but 3 ninth graders without smart phones at thee time.
I also found it ironic that the kids had lots of friends with incomes much much higher than ours. Those kids had all the gizmos but no parents at home. One would have thought all the kids would have been hanging out there right? We always had tons of kids at the house. It amazed me how many kids though the fort building in the field and playing in the fields were way more fun than all the gizmos. When they were younger they all wanted to bake treats from scratch too. My son liked to go to one friends house to eat because his mom had all fast food/ boxed/ frozen meals that we rarely had. Her kid always wanted to eat all homemade food at our house. I used to hear them discuss this and I'd laugh.
I think the figures they give for raising kids is crazy now that we are drawing to the end of raising ours. I didn't raise them ERE but we did raise them frugally.

I've posted about this somewhat on my journal, but I've had 2 kids in the past 3 years. Overall spending on children (food, clothes, delivery, hospital visits, etc..) all up all in is probably about $4K. We have really good insurance, so delivery plus hospital stays were less than $1K each time, and even then was paid by an FSA so pre tax dollars. Other than that, we did buy some stuff via sales, but honestly they don't need much. We received a lot of clothes from grandparents, and some shoes and other one offs from freecycle. Purchased some other toys from CL. Food is almost negligible. Even for our two year old, mostly drinks milk and eats goldfish/cheerios. The biggest cost is in opportunity as DW stays at home now, even that will be temporary once public school starts.
Its basically all in your personal choice in how you want to raise your children. Costs can be $1K/year (food/clothes) or less or they can be $10k/year (private school/daycare/etcc..)
ERE as a concept and as whole helps to rethink how and why you whould choose one over the other. It has for sure helped us to rethink what's important for our children and saving money is just a nice bonus.

Thanks for the input everyone.
Sounds like I would be ahead already by having a 3 bedroom house in a great school district.
@blessed, thanks for reminding me of orthodontia costs. I come from a long line of people with pretty bad teeth so if I do "start from seed" (as opposed to adopting!) that would almost certainly be a consideration to the tune of a few thousand dollars.
It sounds like childcare is also a major expense. I'm philosophically opposed to this anyway. It seems kinda pointless to have kids if you're letting someone else raise them.

Childcare is a huge expense. One parent staying home is also a huge opportunity cost, and a great sacrifice for the stay home spouse.
Orthodontics, although an expense, really kind of pales in comparison to the may other expenses.
In retrospect, we have given our kids probably more than most ERE-oriented families. Not in toys, but in life experiences. Our kids and us have traveled the world, to some of the most remote corners. They are not afraid to encounter and immerse in other cultures. When we travel, we stay and live more or less like the locals. Those experiences are priceless in opening their eyes to the world. I would never take these experiences and insights away.
I know families who raised their kids on sailboats, sailing around the world. These kids turn out to be amazing, because you have to learn to be creative when cruising around the world. When in the middle of the Pacific, you need to be a renaissance man or you die. When these kids start college, they are usually top performers.
Giving your kids like changing experiences is not necessarily cheap, but teaches them more that they can learn in school. One way to save lots of money is to avoid private schools: you don't buy a better education in private schools, just a wealthier peer group. I taught at an Ivy League school for a while, and quite frankly was appalled by some of the outdated teaching going on there. Tradition is good, but not when it comes to outdated science.

"Orthodontics, although an expense, really kind of pales in comparison to the may other expenses."
You didn't see my teeth!
And being a stay at home parent only seems like a sacrifice if it's not what you want to do. By the same token, ERE itself is an "opportunity cost".
I guess there are two very different scenarios here: having kids pre-ERE and having kids post-ERE. Immersing kids in other cultures pre-ERE could be expensive, but I don't see why it would have to be expensive at all post-ERE.

One thing I didn't see or missed... was outside assitance in the positive range. The states have what is called WIC. If you make under a certain amount jointly, they will give you basically an allowance for things like milk, formula, and whatnot.. cause that is a big expense in the first few years is the formula. And I'm seeing more and more lately that their children are iron deficient. If your child ends up being iron deficient the formula twice as much. So if you do end up getting someone pregnant make sure she is healthy. My wife at the time, made me read the book, "what to expect when you're expecting". I learned a lot. LIke smokers that don't quit by the first trimester should just keep smoking. Women should not raise their hands over hteir heads during pregnancy.. little things.. Enjoy!

I personally though the orthodontic were a lot. We got several opinions before we chose. I spent a tad over $11,000 on ortho work for my two boys with the 10% cash discount. They got moms bigger teeth in a tiny mouth. It was not vanity as the younger had a heck of a time chewing things like meat.
We would have qualified at some points but never used any form of WIC or assistance. I'm not against it I just figured we didn't need it.

As many have suggested, a lot of the costs are up to the parents' wishes. There must be a minimum value, and no one really knows what that is-- probably for a number of reasons, but mostly because most folks don't see the primary goal of raising a child to be achieving minimum cost.
There is always pressure to spend more/do more-- some of it is funny, like the looks of horror some friends gave us when we said we planned to send our child to a top rated public elementary school. Similarly we probably emitted looks of horror when the kids were allowed to open a gift on Christmas eve and my 18 month old gets a picture book, while her cousin gets an ipad (okay, the cousin was 3 years old, so probably that's what you should get at 3, I mean shes 2x older...).
I can't tell you how much having a kid slowed down my plan-- so far it doesn't seem to be at all, the plan seems right on track, but maybe it will be in the future. I am certain that having a kid really motivates me to make good ERE choices because I really, really want to have more time to spend with my child.
My kid is 19 months now, and she is like a living example of the benefits of ERE. The things that matter most are love, food, going outside, and dancing-- the rest is just stuff people have convinced you is important, even diapers, according to her are not so important... I know it won't be like this forever... I won't be like the person who complains while watching a sunset-- I'll just watch it and be glad I got the chance to see it.

@Mo: "while her cousin gets an ipad (okay, the cousin was 3 years old, so probably that's what you should get at 3, I mean shes 2x older...)."
I hope I'm not stepping on any toes, but that is sarcasm, right? An iPad seems like useless superfluous junk at any age, much less 3...
Either way, point well taken about the peer pressure. I feel like I am and would remain relatively immune to that though.

The big costs are really daycare and private school, and those are negated by early retirement.
If you are retired, then you have time to take care of the child yourself, so you won't need daycare.
I don't think you ever really need private school, but maybe if your job requires you to be in the middle of Detroit or something, I could see it - if you are retired, you can live somewhere with good schools.