Early Retirement Extreme Forums

I start to realize more and more ERE is so much about life style decision. A lot of people signed over their life to a mortgage or job, probably do so in order to raise a family, and by family I mean kids.
In ERE's blog, Jacob made the argument that even with kids, ERE is still achievable. I know for guys it is not an urgent issue, as it is not too late for guys to have kids I guess even in their 70s.
What about for girls on this forum? Or married couples? Besides living frugally, is there a bigger choice of life we are making?

Good question, I'm about halfway to ERE/FI and we will have baby #1 in a few months, I expect a slow down of about 1 year to ERE depending on if and when the mother returns to work. However, in 4-5 years regardless of the child/children I will be available to be a stay at home dad. Having children is one of the biggest reasons I'm so keen on ERE. If it was just me I could go a few years without work and then go back if I needed money. Having a family means I need a steady income- but also that I want to be with them which means I don't want to sell 1/3 to half my time to someone else. ERE is the best option for me.

I think that will be best scenario as well.
However, my targeted ERE is when I will turn age 35. It is considered the last chance to have baby, without a much increased risk. I guess if I want to have a child, the around the world trip has to wait...

I make a lot of life decisions. Some don't have much to do with the others. I don't want to have kids, but the money they cost is no factor in that decision. Saving money is just a happy side-effect of not wanting to have kids.

@Dutchgirl, thanks for your candid answer. I have never personally felt anything special towards kids. For the longest time, I am convinced that I don't want one.
Until recently, I start to think about the time we are no longer young, can no longer get around, and even worse, if the life partner passed earlier? How to cope with that loneliness and helplessness in the old age?
I know this is a little too much "ahead of time" thinking, but for me, having kids or not, almost will make a black /white difference.

Money is a tool. It should help you attain the life you want, not dictate the kind of life you live.
That includes lots of things like work, marriage, kids, where you live, what you eat, etc.

> How to cope with that loneliness and helplessness

> in the old age?
You do realize that not all children will care how their parents are doing? One hopes that they will be there for you, but you should already have other plans.
My wife and I have no children because we're not particulary interested in having a dependent weighing on our time. It was not an economic decision.
We are godparents to a couple kids should something happen to their parents.

I have two children 6 and 8...
For me they now help define who I am. I cannot imagine life without them. Having said that my wife and i are just caretakers and we will enjoy them while we can.
We had set ourselves up reasonably well before they arrived and i have always been earning a good income but truth is they dont cost too much. You can continue being frugal with kids....
As i have stated in previous posts you need to find a community where frugality/simple living/non materialism is somehwat of a virtue...
I find that in 'bohemian' areas....still upwardly mobile but full of creative types who vote green but work professionally.

I've never had any maternal instincts really and don't see that ever changing, but like dutchgirl, it has nothing to do with their financial cost or disire to achieve FI sooner. Its just a personal preference. I'm 30 in a few weeks and can't say I'm really worried that the window is starting to close.

I think it's very selfish to have kids expecting them to take care of you. I don't think that is a fair plan, as they had no choice in the matter.
I also don't think it's morally right for men to have children after a certain age. It's completely unfair to ask for a 12 year old to deal with the death of her 75 year old dad.
Basically, I think as a society we do not put enough thought into having children.
I am personally leaning towards not having them.

Good to know that there are many girls out there who don't want children. Maybe at old age, we can build a community and take care of each other...
My biggest fear is that, I will be the only childless person, surrounded by the people with children. I guess I am not strong enough, to not be bothered by peer pressure...

Great post, jennypenny.
I have told my wife that I will not have children until I (and she) are good enough people to be parents. I'm not there yet.

Money is definitely a factor for me in having kids. If I had $100 million, I would probably have a few. I know they don't have to cost a lot, but when you are responsible for another life, I feel like you get even more risk-averse.

First, let me say I'm NOT trying to talk anyone into having kids. If you don't want them, don't have them. If you have kids for the wrong reasons--just like if you get married for the wrong reason, pick a job for the wrong reason, etc--it can backfire. And you can't undo kids. That said...
Kids are not as expensive as advertised. You *can* spend a lot, but it's not necessary. That $250K number that gets tossed around is crazy. Even paying for our kids' college tuition at a state college we wouldn't spend that much.
You do have to be prepared for peer pressure though. (not the kids, the parents) If you think there is social pressure on you to conform to consumer culture as an adult, it can go up tenfold as a parent. Aussie's suggestion to find the right community can help, but I don't think there are a lot of those communities around. Even if you're comfortable defending your frugal lifestyle, you'll feel some guilt when friends tell you all of the kids play travel soccer (or whatever) and your kid is missing out. You can raise them without spending a ton of money, but you have to have the backbone for it.

In my experience all the really old people are childless whether they have kids or not. Stopping in 1-2 times a month is not an awesome relationship. Plus, most old people don't make it easy to live with them, which turns more people off. A lot of their loneliness is self-inflicted.

We have 3 and are very happy with them. We made a good choice for us, but its not for everyone.
Mr. Money Mustache is a good example of an early retirement with kids.

We're childfree by happenstance. Or serendipity. Or dumb-luck.
Maybe it's our way of looking at the world... "Hey, our grass is pretty damn green, doncha think?!" Or maybe it's the fact that life really is much easier for childfree couples. I don't know. What I do know is that neither of us would change the way things worked out.
There are a few things that you mentioned that you might wish to rethink....
The first... if you have children, they are unlikely to be the cure for loneliness in old age. JennyPenny often writes about how she lives in Stepford. Well, I live in Cocoonville.... without the aliens. Almost every resident has kids. Almost every resident is lonely.
Second, while men can indeed reproduce late in life there are serious questions as to whether they should do so....
The Paternal Age Effect shows that the greater the fathers age at the birth of his offspring the:
1) greater probability of having a low birth-weight child

2) greater probability of an adverse outcome (miscarriage)

3) greater probability of several conditions including autism, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, Down syndrome, Alzheimer's, diabetes, decreased intelligence, and about fifty others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect

One thing that really concerns me is the peer pressure on my child to consume more toys, video games, clothes, etc. I had this peer pressure when I was growing up and it was really, really hard. I was a pretty cynical and critical kid, but I still easily fell for stupid fads. I don't know how to shield my kid from the barrage of messages urging him to consume, both from popular media and peers.
I sometimes think raising a child in a lower-income neighborhood would be good: teach the child the realities of poverty and the need to work hard, less pressure to consume, and at least here in NYC a lot of energy is put into improving schools in poorer neighborhoods.

I think it's a good idea to think of it as a lifestyle question. The thought of a 20 year career or side-job in parenting does not sound very appealing to me and I'd probably be counting the years until it was over. It would not be a lifestyle I'd enjoy and if I were free to pick, I wouldn't choose it.

If kids are not solutions for loneliness at old age, what are the solutions then if there is any?